How is Wu Wei different from laziness?

[brawnypandora0]

If everyone in world history had adhered to wu wei, what would actually get accomplished?

[Astral Monk]

Everything...and nothing.

 

8)

[Marblehead]

Wu wei is doing nothing when nothing needs be done. Laziness is doing nothing when something should be done. A world of difference between the two concepts!

[RyanO]

Wu wei is doing nothing when nothing needs be done. Laziness is doing nothing when something should be done. A world of difference between the two concepts!

 

Great answer!

[manitou]

PERFECT, Marbles!!

 

Wu-wei has nothing to do with laziness. Wu-wei is performed when the performer can See way down into the situation because he understands his own human nature to the bone. When he understands his own human nature to the bone, he understands the human nature of others to the bone. It is from this perspective that Wu-Wei must be achieved. Because he can see the problem so deeply and sees how it is going to play out, the performer can sometimes tweak the situation at a very deep level to see it play out slightly differently down the road. (This is impossible to explain, I'm not doing it very well!)

 

The Do-Nothing (wu-wei) aspect of this is to remove one's self (not necessarily physically at all) from the dynamic that's occurring. It's as though you were juggling a bunch of stuff and then decided to quit juggling. Everything stops its motion, lays on the ground, and the performer can see what is actually there. After that point, the wu-wei performer lets all further dynamics of the situation come to him; he is not the protagonist in any fashion, but instead he meets all dynamics with kindness, honesty, and compassion (that one was for you, Marbles). Some would call it love.

 

This, in my opinion, is absolute sorcery. The Universe will ultimately bring around the perfect conclusion once the talking monkeys stop trying to manipulate the outcome.

[Marblehead]

(This is impossible to explain, I'm not doing it very well!)

 

Hehehe. But I knew what you were point at with your crocked finger.

 

... with kindness, honesty, and compassion (that one was for you, Marbles).

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hehehe.

[~9~]

IMO detaching identitfication with our intention to act leads to action which is empty of "doing" ("I am doing this...") and empty of personalized concern with the outcome of the action ("I am doing this because...."). The action then taken is "non-doing", action for the sake of the action itself, a pure response to what is calling us to act and is thus wu wei. Wu-wei is "not doing" not nessesarily inaction. It can be a action taken without "doing" the action.

[Thunder_Gooch]

If everyone in world history had adhered to wu wei, what would actually get accomplished?

 

If I am not mistaken Wu Wei doesn't mean non-action, it means automatic action. Where you make the best possible actions and decisions without thinking about them automatically and effortlessly without thinking twice. A sort of in the zone moment.

[The Way Is Virtue]

How is Wu Wei different from laziness?

 

Here is my view. Taoism contains some concepts that are not really meant to be taken completely literally. Think more in terms of rich images. This doesn't mean the concepts have to be complicated however. Wu wei in essence is what we have when we have truly dissolved the false heart and we allow our true heart to shine through. Wu wei does not literally mean non-doing. When we operate from our true heart our actions are a natural unfolding of our true nature. The process of dissolving the false heart and cultivating the true heart (true nature) relates to low virtue and high virtue. IMO, where people sometimes misunderstand is that they think that since high virtue 'is where it's at' then there is little value in low virtue, but in practice we have to start with where we are and work from there. A passage in the book 'Awakening to Reality' says the following:

"It begins with doing, and hardly can one see a thing,

when it comes to non-doing, all begin to understand

But if you only see non-doing as the essential marvel,

how can you know that doing is the foundation?"

Edited March 26, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Stigweard]

[steve]

Another good example of Wu Wei is Zhuangzi's parable of the archer -

 

When an archer is shooting for nothing he has all his skill.

If he shoots for a brass buckle he is already nervous.

If he shoots for a prize of gold

he goes blind

or sees two targets

- he is out of his mind!

 

His skill has not changed. But the prize

divides him. He cares.

He thinks more of winning than of shooting

and the need to win

drains him of power

 

I think one way to interpret Wu Wei is to act without letting the self get in the way. When the expert archer shoots, there is only shooting, the archer disappears. The division between self and universe is the illusion. When that is seen through, there is no separation of doer and what is being done, just the happening.

[Stigweard]

Another good example of Wu Wei is Zhuangzi's parable of the archer -

 

When an archer is shooting for nothing he has all his skill.

If he shoots for a brass buckle he is already nervous.

If he shoots for a prize of gold

he goes blind

or sees two targets

- he is out of his mind!

 

His skill has not changed. But the prize

divides him. He cares.

He thinks more of winning than of shooting

and the need to win

drains him of power

 

I think one way to interpret Wu Wei is to act without letting the self get in the way. When the expert archer shoots, there is only shooting, the archer disappears. The division between self and universe is the illusion. When that is seen through, there is no separation of doer and what is being done, just the happening.

Very nice Steve ... but I have to ask ... is that your ass sticking out of the snow??? >.<

[z00se]

Wu wei is doing nothing when nothing needs be done. Laziness is doing nothing when something should be done. A world of difference between the two concepts!

 

But some of the native indians of america and the aborigines of australia probably lived in wu wei alot of the time without actually calling it 'wu wei'. They spent alot of time doing alot of nothing or telling storys, living in the 'dream time' etc. But what happened to them, they got raped and pillaged.

 

Fine, you could argue that they recieved a good legal system, learnt how to build railroads, and recieved all the infrastructure that the west developed over so many years.... without 'doing anything'. But i don't think they wanted it.

[effilang]

Wu wei is doing nothing when nothing needs be done. Laziness is doing nothing when something should be done. A world of difference between the two concepts!

 

Good Wu wei is difficult to achieve in todays society. Something always need be done.

Seldom can i find such peace.

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Good Wu wei is difficult to achieve in todays society. Something always need be done.

Seldom can i find such peace.

 

Hehehe. I never said it was going to be easy.

[steve]

But some of the native indians of america and the aborigines of australia probably lived in wu wei alot of the time without actually calling it 'wu wei'. They spent alot of time doing alot of nothing or telling storys, living in the 'dream time' etc. But what happened to them, they got raped and pillaged.

 

Fine, you could argue that they recieved a good legal system, learnt how to build railroads, and recieved all the infrastructure that the west developed over so many years.... without 'doing anything'. But i don't think they wanted it.

Wu Wei doesn't necessarily prevent indigenous cultures from being decimated.

In fact, one could argue that Wu Wei is nearly incompatible with living in "civilized" society - one of the reasons for Daoist, Buddhist, and Christian monks living in seclusion.

[steve]

Very nice Steve ... but I have to ask ... is that your ass sticking out of the snow??? >.<

Sorry - no. Just came across the photo while snowbound last year and loved it. I have to admit, I'm nearly that size and have dark hair so it's pretty close...

Edited March 27, 2011 by steve f

[Birch]

But what really could I do?

 

If someone has decided to see things in a specific light, what can I do? Do I change the light? The person? (hehehe, the incandescent lightbulb is soon to be dead! No more "how many...to change the lightbulb" - jokes? I will miss them (aside from them getting quite crowded, recently :-))

 

IMO "Laziness" is not doing, or doing too little of what is required in any given situation. Wu-wei is doing what is required in any given situation and not doing (too much) in situations that are perfectly able to resolve themselves without action on one's part. Not to say that no action takes place, it just might not have to be yours :-).

 

The other way I've felt this is as a distinct "ego-move" that is distinct from anything I would do "naturally". So I might say that "wu-wei" is uncontrived, not thought about, not manipulated...it is natural action.

[Marblehead]

The other way I've felt this is as a distinct "ego-move" that is distinct from anything I would do "naturally". So I might say that "wu-wei" is uncontrived, not thought about, not manipulated...it is natural action.

 

That's a great observation!

[chuangzu]

Stigweard says:

"Wu 無 simply means an absence or negative like the terms �no, not, have no�. It can either be the image of cleared patch of forest, thus negation, or it has also been pictographically linked to shaman dancers holding tassels with my implication that the tassels become the focus of attention and the dancer �disappears�. Interestingly the Wu dancers who brought the rain were traditionally women."

 

There's an interesting section on Wu Shamans in Wikipedia which also talks about the etymology of the word Wu as meaning dancing:

"Wu could be cognate with wu 舞 "to dance". Based on analysis of ancient characters, Hopkins (1920, 1945) proposed that wu 巫 "shaman", wu 無 "not have; without", and wu 舞 "dance", "can all be traced back to one primitive figure of a man displaying by the gestures of his arms and legs the thaumaturgic powers of his inspired personality" (1945:5). Many Western Han Dynasty tombs contained jade plaques or pottery images showing "long-sleeved dancers" performing at funerals, who Erickson (1994:52-54) identifies as shamans, citing the Shuowen jiezi that early wu characters depicted a dancer's sleeves."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_(shaman)#Etymologies

 

It also talks about the origins of the ideogram Wu being:

"originally a dancer holding two dangling animal skins" which suggests some kind of Shamanic origins of the term.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%88%9E

[Rara]

Another good example of Wu Wei is Zhuangzi's parable of the archer -

 

When an archer is shooting for nothing he has all his skill.

If he shoots for a brass buckle he is already nervous.

If he shoots for a prize of gold

he goes blind

or sees two targets

- he is out of his mind!

 

His skill has not changed. But the prize

divides him. He cares.

He thinks more of winning than of shooting

and the need to win

drains him of power

 

I think one way to interpret Wu Wei is to act without letting the self get in the way. When the expert archer shoots, there is only shooting, the archer disappears. The division between self and universe is the illusion. When that is seen through, there is no separation of doer and what is being done, just the happening.

What about those that triumph in competition though? Winners of the Superbowl, World Cup etc...

 

I agree that I am at my best when I have no one watching me, but surely we wei can be achieved within the context of competition...

 

EDIT: Just read that back to myself. I'll add I am not a professional football/soccer player, those were just examples. Me being at my best is probably cooking without the pressure of having guests round lol

Edited December 30, 2015 by Rara

[Marblehead]

What about those that triumph in competition though? Winners of the Superbowl, World Cup etc...

 

I agree that I am at my best when I have no one watching me, but surely we wei can be achieved within the context of competition...

Of course it can.  But I'm not going to tell you.  I will let you tell me.

[Rara]

Of course it can. But I'm not going to tell you. I will let you tell me.

As in...you won't tell me how?

 

My first thought is that one who is "destined" to be the greatest football player ever, would bask in the enjoyment of the game and therefore not feel pressure when playing in a cup final anyway...

[Marblehead]

Good perspective.  My answer lies a little deeper than that though.  Let's talk about people in general and not just those with special abilities.

[Rara]

Good perspective. My answer lies a little deeper than that though. Let's talk about people in general and not just those with special abilities.

Still speaking about competition? For even those without special abilities would still have some form of talent to participate...

 

Please do elaborate