Deng & Blofield works. Is it ethical?

[shanlung]

After my recent trip on a fruitless search for the Tao in the lake gardens, street side restaurants and mountains around Taiping, I needed some rest at home.

 

My fingers did some walking and I stumbled onto the old Usenet Alt.Philosophy.Taoism where I had roamed about as the Idiotic Taoist.

 

I came across a very long piece that I wrote in about 1996. Which might still be fascinating reading for those interested in the Path of Tao even if we still have not even come close to agreeing what is the Tao about and what is Taoism or even what a Taoist is.

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

==============================================================

This was posted into apt around end Oct 1996.

Instead of fiddling around with my floppies, I use Dejanews and
managed to locate these letters once more.

Jester ahem! As I have said, I have been in this place before and not
just for a day.

======================================================
Deng Ming Dao's Chronicles have sections which are so similar to other
really noted Taoist writers.

It is unfortunate that my library is not with me right now and I
cannot check and quote the other corresponding parts from them.

However, I do have a couple of John Blofeld books (first written by
him in 1960 or earlier) with me.

There are two letters following this posting.

The first letter contains a section from Mr Blofeld book.

The next letter contains excerpts from Deng Chronicles which looked
grotesquely similar to Mr Blofeld. That next letter also contains
portions from Deng so strange that you best read them for yourself.

This is not the first time that these letters were posted here.
However, entities unknown to me have gone and deleted them soon after
their posting.

Warmest regards

The Idiotic Taoist

 

=========================================================

This was originally posted on the Tao-List sometime back in Mar 96.

*********************************************************************************

I just finished reading 'Chronicles of TAO' by Deng Ming Dao.

It was supposedly the story of Deng's Taoist master Kwan Saihung,
tracing the education, martial arts and spiritual, he had in China Hua
Shan to the time he crossed over to America. After all those years of
real martial arts experience, Kwan then went on to 'learn' boxing
eventually taking part in the Golden Gloves. The absurdity that after
training in many forms of the highest martial arts he was badly beaten
when he tried boxing for the first time even though the book went on
to make Kwan the 'winner' after due training.( I remembered my boxing
for the first time with gloves when I was in the Army with my even
more limited background in karate/kungfu without
any trouble).

Not too long into that book, it was easy enough from the
inconsistencies that it was more a novel rather than a true story that
it made itself out to be. There were far too many instances of
'americanised' behaviour and thinking, typical of that make belief of
David Carradine's Shaolin temple fantasy to make that book believable.

There were certain parts which were true, but again, while 'Lobsang
Rampa' books also did have some truth it, it sure does not make those
books true or that the monk 'Lobsang Rampa' truly exists in the past
now residing as a 'spirit' in an Englishman.

I guess that people being people, the only point that really matters
is the 'angle' they can get in making of money, and in this 'New Age',
Taoism is as good as any an angle to make money.

What bothers me is that in their making that kind of money, they had
no qualms in spinning tales that may well mislead others really
searching for the way.

Further more, tales need not be spun as the truth is often stranger
than fiction.

There are also parts of Deng's Chronicles that bears very great
similarity to other books written by noted authors written many many
years ago.

Perhaps it may be that great minds do think alike, but on the other
hand, some authors need to be 'inspired' by other writers even to the
following of their mannerisms and phrasing of words.

I am appending below an extract from John Blofeld's book 'Taoism, the
road to Immortality'. Mr Blofeld have spend many years in China and
travelled and stayed at many Taoist temples in the past before
Communism came. I rather believe in Mr Blofeld account of a Taoist
recluse rather than that of Deng Ming Dao.

My apologies to those who have read Blofeld books, but this is meant
for those who have not read it yet.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(In Blofeld's words)

This final story of immortals is very different from the others, being
no legend but a factual account of the attainment of immortality in
the true Taoist sense of that word. I hear it years ago from a Taoist
of Mount Heng and, though I cannot recall the actual examples he gave
me of the 'double talk' with which Taoists clothe their secrets, I can
vouch for the closeness of my version to the original in spirit if not
in detail. The recluse who relate the story, told me that he was a
'third generation spiritual descendent' of the White Heron Immortal.

In the reign of the Hsien Feng Emperor(1851-62), there lived on the
slopes of Mount Heng a recluse known as the Narrow-Waisted_Gourd
Immortal, more commonly called Hulu Weng, the Gourd Ancient One, or it
may have been Hu Lao-weng which has the same meaning. Besides a few
middle-aged disciples, he was attended by two children who were
supposed to be boys, though some said they were his granddaughters,
the offspring of a son conceived before he retured from the world of
dust. Strangers coming to pay their respects were invariably
received by one of these children, who had some skill in
distinguishing false from real. Those whom the children reported to
be unlike followers of the Way were generally told that the Immortal,
being deep in meditation, might not be able to receive them for
several days to come. If, however, these guests persisted and asked
that lodging be provided until such a time as the Immortal found it
convenient to bestow some of his precious time on them, than coolness
vanished and they were made welcome. Perhaps their desire would be
fulfilled that very evening, the Immortal suddenly emerging from his
inner chamber, crying:"Well,well. How may an old and ignorant fellow
serve Your Honours?'

One day there arrived from the capital a scholar surnamed Pai who, at
the age of 30, was already a little stooped and short-sighted from too
much study of the Confucian classics. He seemed at once distraught
and impatient, so it was just as well that the little girls reported
favourably on the state of his heart and mind. Upon coming into the
Immortal's presence, he was with difficulty restrained from kneeling
and knocking his head on the floor as before a Confucian dignitary.
"I come to Your Immortality", he cried, "as a very last resort.
Either you must show me the face of truth or I shall dispatch myself
here and now to the yello springs with the help of my silken girdle.
All my life I have been searching for truth, pouring over the
classics, listening to so-called sages in vain and cultivating the
company of eminent Confucian scholars. A brilliant offical
career lay before me until, all of a sudden, I realised that all that
talk of benevolence, filial piety and propriety is so much claptrap!
What li[propriety] conveivably have to do with the Great Way? Does
cultivating the Tao require that we walk or bow in this way or that?
Of course not! Your Immortality must help me to make up quickly for
wasting my whole life upon such nonsense!"

Impressed by his sincerity, the Gourd Immortal invited his official to
stay for a while and receive 'such poor teaching as an ignorant old
fellow has to give'. Pai was delighted , but the next day a horrible
disappointment awaited him, for the Immortal spoke to him in terms
that seemed utterly at variance with his own conceptions of sagehood
and wisdom. This was the substance of Hulu Weng's first lesson to the
bewildered scholar:

"I cannot describe to you the indescribable, but I can teach you
several by no means inconsiderable arts - invisibility, flying without
wings, invulnerability to sword or serpent's fang - you know the kind
of thing.

Here, then, is your syllabus of study. Seeking the Mysterious Portal,
you must first provide yourself with the wherewithal to bribe the
gurads and render yourself invisible that you may slip through
unnoticed. That sort of thing is not to be mastered in a day. Next
you will have to learn how to fly thence to the courts of heaven, make
your way to the central chamber, surprise Lord Lao[Lao-tze] at
breakfast, snatch up his flask of golden elixir, slay those who will
come running in to rescue it, break down the walls of the sky-castle
and return to earth an immortal! A man of your determination has but
to follow my course of instruction to be certain of sucess."

Hoping with all his heart that the Immortal was just having a little
joke at his expense, Pai gazed at him earnestly, trying to read his
expression. Alas, his face was calm and solemn, and his eyes shone
with an unearthly lustre that made Pai wonder if he were not dealing
with a dangerous fanatic. Had he travelled post-haste from the
capital, scarcely dismounting for weeks on end, forgetful of food and
sleep, merely to be told the kind of nonsense that any child can find
for himself in the sort of books he borrows from servants without
letting his parents know? The thought was intolerable. The next day,
long before dawn, he rose and packed his few belongings
meaning to slip away without having to make embarassing excuses. He
was tying up his bundle when one of the little girls came in with a
pot of tea. Seeing how things were, she smiled and said: "Please,
Uncle, do not leave us son soon. If you do, I shall get the blame for
not looking after you properly. You would not like that to happen,
would you, Uncle? I know why you are angry. The Immortal said
something you did not like, isn't it so?

Have you heard of mountain divinities pretending to be horrible
re-toungued demons just to test the pilgrims' courage? You wouldn't
be taken in would you, Uncle?"

Rather than cause trouble for the friendly child, Pai decided to delay
his departure for a few days, since it would be quite impossible to
admit the true cause of his wanting to leave. Meanwhile the lessons
continued arousing such interest that the few days became many and, in
the end, Pai never left the hermitage again, staying there in all for
some seventy or eighty years!

Since a prerequisite for flying without wings is weightlessness, the
first lessons were directed as 'trhowing things away'. Unlike many
others, Pai had discarded greed and ambition before coming to the
mountain, but he still had cumbersome baggage to be disposed of -
excessive ardour, for example, over-eagerness to succeed and over
anxiety lest he fail. He was taught to lose all sense of hurry, to
subdue his tendecy to strain. He had to learn to let limslef to be
borne along like a floating cloud on the chi of heaven.
Simultaneously, he set himself to acquire the art of invisibility.
For this, stillness was required and the capacity to be as unobtrusive
as a lizard on a branch, mingling with the pilgrims who came on
festival days - there, yet unnoticed.

The bribe to be offered to the guardians of the Mysterious Portal
turned out to be a vow that, if the golden elixir were won, Pai would
not depart into final bliss before founding and nursing a line of
disciples capable of passing on the recipe for immortality to future
generations. As to the Portal itself, he learnt that it stands in a
region known as the Precious Square Inch lying just behind the
mid-point between the eyes.There came a day when he could at any time
behold the rays of heavenly light that are forever streaming through
this gate but remain invisible until the adept has learnt how to
develop his inner seeing. Learning to fly proved the longest
and most ardous task, requiring that his physical endowments - semen
and subtle essence, breath and blended personal and cosmic vitality,
spirit both personal and cosmic - be transmuted into a spirit-body
able to soar, during meditation, beyond the stars. Entering the
courts of heaven meant achieving at will a state of ecstatic trance.
Passing into the central chamber was the fruit of a yoga for drawing
up the final product of blended essence, vitality and spirit from the
region below the heart to the ni wan cavity just below the top of the
skull; snatching the golden elixir from Lord Lao meant causing the
perfected elixir to descend (and reascend) the central pschic channel
running between the pelvis and the ni wan. Slaying the guardians was
a term for countering the illusory ego's final struggles to retain the
recognition hitherto given to it as an individual entity.

Breaking down the walls was the supreme act, destruction of the last
barriers between the adept's being and the Source of Being, so as to
attain immortality in the true and only meaningful sense of those
words. It signified in fact, 'return to the Source', the be all and
end all of Taoist endeavour, of cultivation of the Way!

The former Confucian scholar, having by devoted labour and with the
unstinted help of his teacher attained to immortal state within a mere
decade of his distraught arrival, was destined to make the Gourd
Immortal's hermitage his permanent home. Its former owner, before
'soaring among the stars on the back of a dragon', confirmed Pai as
his spiritual successor. Pupils of Pai's pupils were still to be found
there in the 1930s and it was probably their pupils who were truned
when the red tide reached Mount Heng around 1950!

-----------------------------------------------------

Warmest regards

The Idiotic Taoist

 

=====================================================

 

2nd letter

Continuation of my earlier letters on this Deng's Chronicles
*************************************************************************

You recalled two weeks ago when I typed out the piece by John Blofeld,
I said it was to cleanse my soul after reading the Chronicles of Tao
purportedly the story of the Taoist Master that Deng Ming Dao claimed
was his master.

I know I have hurt some of the people in this list who thought highly
of Deng when I wrote what I wrote with my 'heart-mind' and not being
very explicit why I felt such a way.

That piece by Blofeld was a 'finger pointing to the moon' as I thought
that it would immediatly be clear when I downloaded that work of
Blofeld.

Perhaps people have not read that 'Chronicles' or have forgotten what
they read and remembered only a warm glow when Deng's name was
mentioned.

I now write with my 'logical-mind'. In case Deng whipped up another
book or maybe set up a 'Temple of Immortal Tao' for his master and
pass the hat for donations.

Deng's Chronicles, have been so full of inconsistencies in martial
arts (Shaolin based martial arts taught in Wudang Mountains???)that it
is really a sick joke and can be treated as a D grade pulp fiction
novel. The masters Kwan Sai Hung claimed he learned under like the
Taiji MASTER Yang Chengfu died in 1936, at the time Kwan claimed he
was learning Shaolin style martial arts. Same for other MASTERS that
were listed such as Chen Weiming, Sun Lutang Hsingyi/Pakua and Zhang
Zhaodong of pakua. After all those listed Inner Martial Arts masters
Kwan 'trained' under (introduction page 2), the rest of the book talks
on Shaolin martial arts he trained under instead.

I did not even comment on the miraculous travels Kwan made even with
his uncle. In his Deng's words

---------------------------------------
Chronicles page 329

He eased the tension of the two Taoists' deaths by wandering.

Accompanying an uncle who was a wealthy fur trader, or going alone by
bicycle, he toured Germany, France, and Eastern Europe, even though
World War II was in progress. He found charm and beauty wherever he
went, and had taken sentimental likings to the Black Forest, bridges
over the Danube, the sound of Chopin. He loved to stay in alpine
villages and appreciated the hospitality that people proffererd even
to strangers. Though the land had been devastated, he took it all in,
and the enchantment of a foreign land was mixed with enthusiasm of his
youth. For a time, he had even wanted to move to Europe, but his only
friends were members of a dying aristocracy. They could offer him no
solace.

------------------------------------------------------
I am not sure fur will be traded in those part of the world during WW
II.

You all judge the possibility of one/two Chinese travelling merrily in
Germany, France and Eastern Europe during the WW II staying in Black
Forest and all that stuff above.

And the second last sentence?...I checked it and typed like it is in
the book. I only can conclude that portion was 'inspired' from
something else he read without too much understanding.

What blew my fuse is below.

As written by Deng in his 'Chronicles of Tao', page 296/297.

------------------------------------------------------------------
In the midafternoon, Slender Gourd took him to a shaded corner of the
broken-down, weed-invaded courtyard.

"My brother and I will both teach you," he said. "I will first
outline the method of cultivating the Way."

"Let me complete what I began last night. You must seek the
Mysterious Portal. But it is guarded. You must have an offering to
first bribe the guards and then the ability to be invisible so that
you may slip through unnoticed. With these preparations, you must
then learn to fly to heaven, surprise Lao Tzu in his chambers, snatch
up the flask of golden elixir, slay the defenders, break down the
palace walls, and return to earth an immortal!"

"This is like the opera 'Monkey Makes Havoc in Heaven' commented
Saihung. {Comment - that episode referred to, of the Monkey God Sung
Wu Kung is nothing at all like what is written}

"Yes, but this is no opera," said the master severely. "sit down and
listen to me. The first thing is the bribe for the guards."

"What is that?"

"Gold and jewels do not move the demon generals. It is the human
spirit. Your bribe is a vow that should you attain the golden elixir
that will liberate you from this earthly plane, you shall not depart
into the infinite before teaching others and continuing the lineage."

"I promise. Iwill do everything I can to walk the holy path," said
Saihung." Master, i will do anything to succeed."

"Not so fast," cautioned Slender Gourd. "You are obviously a man of
determination, but you must maintain a certain perspective. For this
brings up the question of flying. Flying means weightlessness. Such
lightness means shedding weight. Your emotional burden is
overeagerness to succeed and anxiety about failing. Gain and loss are
not to be taken to heart. You must leave these attitudes behind. Do
you understand?"

"Yes, Master."

"Invisibility, as you said last night, signifies stillness in
mediation. With it, you can slip through the Mysterious Portal. This
gateway is in the region known as the Precious Square Inch in the
center of the head at eyebrow level. It is through this gateway that
you will someday glimpse the divin light that is always there. When
you can unify semen, breath, and spirit, you will soar to heaven -
that is to say that you raise this essence to the Mysterious Portal.
Snatching the golden elixir means thatyour channels are now open and
that your energy breaches the Mysterious Portal. But at that final
stage, the guardians will appear, and you will have to slay them."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forgive me for not continuing on with the rest of what Deng have
written.

I believe you all will agree that it is a very very remarkable
similarity to that of Blofeld and his conversations with the Taoist
master when Blofeld travelled in China in the 1930s.(If any newbies
missed out on those letters I send 2 weeks ago, I will be happy to
send it if you drop me a line)

Deng even put in that not_so_stupid sentence ' "This is like the opera
'Monkey Makes Havoc in Heaven' commented Saihung.'

I can only conclude that he is not satisfied with 'lifting' that part,
that sentence was to innuendo that his story shared 'common origin'
with that of Blofeld, in case you may happen to have read John
Blofeld. And unless you happened to know Chinese classics well and
know that there is no such thing in the Monkey Makes Havoc that Deng
elude to, Deng would have succeeded in what he set out to do, using
'inspired' writings of other works to 'prop' up his story of his
'master'.

I have not read and have no reason to read his '365 Tao'.

I know people who read it said it was good. But given his
'Chronicles', I can only assume that the 'good' in the 365 Tao must
have shared remarkable similarity with other good Taoist books. And
instead of reading about them through Deng, I rather read those books
directly instead.

Your comments are most welcomed.

Warmest regards

The Idiotic Taoist

 

==========================================

 

Your Idiot on the Path

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[C T]

Hey Shanlung... curious me.. you mentioned Taiping - is that Taiping, Malaysia or some other country? Taiping (Malaysia) is well known for its lake gardens too!!

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[shanlung]

CT,

 

If you read my earlier report on the eve of departure to Taiping, http://shanlung.livejournal.com/141112.html

you will have found references to Maxwell hills which would have answered your question.

 

I was rhetorically asking if the plagiarising of Blofeld works was ethical or not.

That was not meant to be a real question.

 

It was clear what was written by Deng was not just a fiction, that was outright fraudulent and theft.

Especially if you fire up Google, you find seminars on chi kung and martial arts , and Living Taoism even, being conducted by Kwan Sai hung.

 

No idea if what he was teaching was based on the D grade rubbish fiction that he was reading in addition to good works by Blofeld and others.

 

I do hope folks of the Tao take pride in ethics too. And denounced in any language plagiarisation of any kind.

None of those 0h! - that read better written by him

 

If so , you must be saying Nouel Alba did a great job too!

Her writings was apparently a lot better and more heart rending.
BBC News - NY woman in Newtown 'charity scam'
And same for those who took from church poor boxes.

 

Maybe I am just an Idiot and do not know the other wonderful ways of the Earth and actually admired by some. What am I to say.

 

I can only say to each their own and their own path.

 

Please do not mind me being an .anachronism in your world.

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

 

 

[YMWong]

Master "Kwan Sai Hung" (actually Frank Kai, born in New York) is a fictional character and Deng's book are totally made up, profusely copying existing works.

 

Also see for instance Poul Andersen, "A Visit to Huashan" in Cahiers d'Extreme Asie 5 (1989-90):

 

"It may be added in this connection that the book [Hedda Morrison's Hua Shan: The Taoist Sacred Mountain in West China], with its fascinating pictures of monks and landscapes, has evidently served as one of the sources for an interesting forgery concerning Huashan, namely Deng Ming-Dao's The Wandering Taoist (San Francisco, 1983). The latter publication contains the biography of one Kwan Saihung, a teacher of martial arts somewhere in the United States, who was ostensibly brought up on Huashan and there initiated into the Zhengyi Huashan sect (sic). The biography is presented as based on stories allegedly told by the master himself. Thus on p. 59 we read, as part of the hero's account of his experiences during his first ascent of Huashan: "The East Peak Monastery was plain stucco and tile and was composed of groups of four-square buildings set in quadrangles. There were also smaller huts of wood and clay. As they passed a hut set behind an iron bell topped with a stone cup that collected dew, Saihung saw a willow-thin man sunning himself on the terrace. He wore grey robes and a black hat with a jade rectangle sewn to its front. The accolytes told Saihung that he was a sorcerer." But comparison with Plate 38 in Morrison's book makes it clear beyond peradventure that the description is based upon this photograph, and not possibly on independent observation at Huashan. No doubt the picture shows the dew-collecting stone cup above the iron bell, but closer scrutiny reveals that in fact the cup is standing at some distance behind the bell. It is thus only the photographic angle that makes it possible to see "an iron bell topped with a stone cup" (in itself, of course, a rather unlikely concept). "

 

 

YM

Edited March 24, 2013 by YMWong

[shanlung]

Kicking this up for new comers here

 

Idiotic Taoist

[YMWong]

Master "Kwan Sai Hung" (actually Frank Kai, born in New York) is a fictional character and Deng's book are totally made up, profusely copying existing works.

 

Also see for instance Poul Andersen, "A Visit to Huashan" in Cahiers d'Extreme Asie 5 (1989-90):

 

"It may be added in this connection that the book [Hedda Morrison's Hua Shan: The Taoist Sacred Mountain in West China], with its fascinating pictures of monks and landscapes, has evidently served as one of the sources for an interesting forgery concerning Huashan, namely Deng Ming-Dao's The Wandering Taoist (San Francisco, 1983). The latter publication contains the biography of one Kwan Saihung, a teacher of martial arts somewhere in the United States, who was ostensibly brought up on Huashan and there initiated into the Zhengyi Huashan sect (sic). The biography is presented as based on stories allegedly told by the master himself. Thus on p. 59 we read, as part of the hero's account of his experiences during his first ascent of Huashan: "The East Peak Monastery was plain stucco and tile and was composed of groups of four-square buildings set in quadrangles. There were also smaller huts of wood and clay. As they passed a hut set behind an iron bell topped with a stone cup that collected dew, Saihung saw a willow-thin man sunning himself on the terrace. He wore grey robes and a black hat with a jade rectangle sewn to its front. The accolytes told Saihung that he was a sorcerer." But comparison with Plate 38 in Morrison's book makes it clear beyond peradventure that the description is based upon this photograph, and not possibly on independent observation at Huashan. No doubt the picture shows the dew-collecting stone cup above the iron bell, but closer scrutiny reveals that in fact the cup is standing at some distance behind the bell. It is thus only the photographic angle that makes it possible to see "an iron bell topped with a stone cup" (in itself, of course, a rather unlikely concept). "

 

 

YM

 

[Taomeow]

So, was Dante a fraud when he described his adventures in hell? Was Cyrano de Bergerac a fraud when he published his account of his travels to the Moon, including the means of propelling himself there and the states and empires established there? Was Prosper Merimee, better known as the creator of Carmen, a fraud when he made up gathering Western Slavic folklore and published his own tales as the original lore? Was Samuel Clemens a fraud writing as Mark Twain? Was Charles Dodgson a fraud writing as Lewis Carroll? Was Li Er a fraud writing as Laozi?..

[shanlung]

So, was Dante a fraud when he described his adventures in hell? Was Cyrano de Bergerac a fraud when he published his account of his travels to the Moon, including the means of propelling himself there and the states and empires established there? Was Prosper Merimee, better known as the creator of Carmen, a fraud when he made up gathering Western Slavic folklore and published his own tales as the original lore? Was Samuel Clemens a fraud writing as Mark Twain? Was Charles Dodgson a fraud writing as Lewis Carroll? Was Li Er a fraud writing as Laozi?..

Did Dante took the writings of others and presented that as his adventures in hell?

 

Did Cyrano took the writings of others in his accounts of travels to the Moon etc etc ?

 

Did Merimee took the writings of others .. hmmmm even so, he, Andersen and Aesop and others made it clear they were collecting folk tales handed down.

 

Did Mark Twain took the writings of others and presented that as his own?

Did Lewis Carroll took the writings of others and presented that as his own?

 

Did Lance Armstrong never take performance enhancing drugs?

 

If you felt Deng is your hero in plagiarising Blofeld, do not let me stop you. I am certainly not the policeman of Tao. And the Tao do not need me or any other people in policing the Tao.

 

Go build your altar to that fraud Deng. Deng even appear in Facebook to give pointers on altars. I only wonder where he plagiarise that from?

From Blofeld or from D grade pulp fiction? Or just crap he conjured up for laughs at the fools who decide to follow him?

Maybe you might ask him which D grade pulp fiction he stole from as I never read those kind of crap.

 

So after this will you go and fight for Lance Armstrong next as a real honest to goodness genuine sportsman?

 

Do not forget to give your donation to Nouel Alba .

 

I am just an Idiot who do not know the better ways such as yours.

 

Idiotic Taoist.

[Taomeow]

A bit too much unwarranted inference. I am a comparative linguistics major. I had to study "literary mystifications" for term papers. I was reminded of that period many moons ago by the discussion. Please do not appoint "heroes" for me on my behalf just because I see facets of an issue that you may not be looking at. Oh, and I have had my taoist altar for years, don't need to build one to a writer's specs, I have taoist teachers. Thank you for your understanding.

[shanlung]

Nouel Alba had the decency to apologise and taken down her begging page for donations.

 

Deng Ming Dao on the other hand, go on collecting royalties based on what he plagiarised or lifted from D grade pulp fiction mixed with a load of crap.

 

Kwan Sai Hung go on as a fictional fraud pretended to teach the Tao and martial arts based on the fiction he and Deng coined up together while laughing on the way to their bank.

 

I never felt that those kind of scums will have people jumping to defend them.

 

Truth is of no value at all. Cheats and frauds the vogue thingy nowadays.

 

Taoistic Idiot

[Taomeow]

Didn't notice any jumping on my part. What I did notice was that Deng's book got me interested in taoism many years ago when I didn't know what that was. Where I grew up most people still don't.

 

He may be laughing on the way to the bank for all I know (this sort of thing seldom makes one stinking rich though), but the way you react to opinions not even in disagreement with yours but offering a somewhat different perspective does make me laugh.

[shanlung]

Laugh as you wish.

 

Come on! No need to pussy foot here with me.

Tell all loud and clear that you think Deng Ming Dao is not a fraud and plagiariser lifting works from Blofeld and others and from D grade pulp fiction mixed with his own crap.G

Go on and promote the seminars by Deng and Kwang Sai Hung. and fill their hats with $$$ when they asked for $$$$ for their temples.

 

I know it must be very amusing to you to make the innuendoes that Dante was a fraud and plagiariser, same as Deng Ming Dao

That Cyrano also another fraud and plagiariser same as Deng Ming Dao

that Merimee another fraud and plagiariser same as Deng Ming Dao

Mark Twain and Dodgson another plagiariser and fraud the same as Deng Ming Dao

 

So I am supposed to sit on my hands while Deng strut about and their minions want to wave palm leaves and shout hosannas to what he plagiarised?

 

Is Deng the Taoist teacher you talked about?

 

My turn to laugh.

ROTFLMAO

 

Taoistic Idiot

[joeblast]

heh, ever heard of the term "baiting?"

[shanlung]

heh, ever heard of the term "baiting?"

 

 

Could be.

 

I have no qualms at meeting baiters, regardless of what they major in and what term papers that they studied,

can that be reason enough to drag geniune word class authors into the gutter where Deng Ming Dao wallow in?

To cover them with the same mud that Deng coated himself in?

 

Fair to those other authors?

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Taomeow]

You have a vivid imagination, my friend. I was referring to the time-honored genre of literary mystification, hoping to discuss its interesting and noteworthy points of distinction... e.g. some researchers and critics assert that even the use of a pseudonym constitutes a literary mystification, then of course all those thousands of books written in the traditional style of the author publishing a manuscript that was left by a purported late friend or ancestor, or found buried amidst some ancient ruins, or translated from some other language, etc.. I've read hundreds of books of this nature, so I thought it may be fun to determine when, how and why the genre might offend instead of being seen as a legitimate continuation of a very well-established literary tradition. Perhaps when the written material appears so realistic that people "fall for it?.." But should we hold it against a creator if his creations turn out convincing enough to be mistaken for reality?.. That sort of thing. That's what I thought we'd be talking about when I posted my questions. You, alas, chose to make a scene instead (the genre you resorted to for the purpose is known as "ad hominem," or put in more modern terms, "flaming"). Um... Shrug...

[shanlung]

A piece of s* is a piece of s*.

A pat of cowdung is a pat of cowdung.

 

Deng Ming Dao is a piece of s* and a pat of cowdung combined and fermented together.

 

Despite hocus pocus of trying to make Deng smell clean, Deng remains a piece of s* and a pat of cowdung.

Edited December 23, 2013 by shanlung

[newTaoist]

I understand your opinion, but don't you think your language and attacks are not very Daoist? I think you need to deal with your anger, just my opinion. Normally, I enjoy your posts and find them very educational, but this is too much.

Edited May 8, 2013 by newTaoist

[shanlung]

I understand your opinion, but don't you think your language and attacks are not very Daoist? I think you need to deal with your anger, just my opinion. Normally, I enjoy your posts and find them very educational, but this is too much.

 

 

Is Deng Ming Dao plagiarising to be Taoist?

 

What makes you think I am angry? I am just giving a clear description of Deng Ming Dao.

Not more, not less.

Just in case anyone else trying to elevate Deng from his cesspit must know.

 

And please, no more throwing of good honest authors into that cesspit of Deng and try to say they are like him, or even worse, innuendo that he is like them.

[xor]

"He who can't learn from a fake guru can't learn from a real one" or in this case gems can be found from cow dung that maybe lead the wise beyond what the fake had in mind.

[shanlung]

Then why ever bother with lineages?

If fake will do, then be happy , and even be in esthetic bliss cuddling the fake.

 

Might as well conjure up whatever you have in mind. Surely, what you conjured yourself will be much better than the fake in conjuring or plagiarising from the real.

 

Let us all discard the real and go for the fakes.

Let us be very happy with the fakes.

Throw away the real as the world of fakes has no place for the real.

Go on and promote the fake over the real.

Go to the seminars and ask others to go the seminars given by the fakes.

 

If that is the kind of world you want, by all means, go for that.

 

Just as I allow you and your world of the fakes, allow me to remain in my world of the real.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Walker]

It is easy to have a bit of a soft spot for Chronicles of Tao if one read it at a certain stage in one's life and one's affinity with Daoism.

 

But Taomeow, come on. What Shanlung points to is not mystification, nor embellishing a man's life story for the sake of telling a good story, nor using pseudonyms or noms de plume, even if all those things are in there.

 

The problem he points to is demonstrable plagiarism and invention of fake episodes to be passed off as real with the likely intent as well as apparent result of drawing followers to a sham offered by the two men involved in the fraudulent writing.

 

This is called bamboozling, which, unfortunately, is also a long-running tradition, and one that besets many who would wish to study Daoism and much else in the world that can be studied.

 

Deng and Kwan may have inspired some people to look further into Daoism. But there is red dust on their hands, too, perhaps a lot of it. Stealing from Blofeld and lying to obtain followers and an audience is simply not in line with the ways of the tradition that Kwan and Deng claim to represent.

 

Therein, and not in literary devices, lies the problem.

[xor]

Then why ever bother with lineages?

If fake will do, then be happy , and even be in esthetic bliss cuddling the fake.

 

This is not what I mean and I am thankful to you pointing this guy out before I even considered reading his books. Which I will luckily avoid like the plague after reading the opening post. I have no love for the fakes and scams.

[Taomeow]

It is easy to have a bit of a soft spot for Chronicles of Tao if one read it at a certain stage in one's life and one's affinity with Daoism.

 

But Taomeow, come on. What Shanlung points to is not mystification, nor embellishing a man's life story for the sake of telling a good story, nor using pseudonyms or noms de plume, even if all those things are in there.

 

The problem he points to is demonstrable plagiarism and invention of fake episodes to be passed off as real with the likely intent as well as apparent result of drawing followers to a sham offered by the two men involved in the fraudulent writing.

 

This is called bamboozling, which, unfortunately, is also a long-running tradition, and one that besets many who would wish to study Daoism and much else in the world that can be studied.

 

Deng and Kwan may have inspired some people to look further into Daoism. But there is red dust on their hands, too, perhaps a lot of it. Stealing from Blofeld and lying to obtain followers and an audience is simply not in line with the ways of the tradition that Kwan and Deng claim to represent.

 

Therein, and not in literary devices, lies the problem.

 

Thanks for explaining this to me so succinctly.

 

Now to my original inquiry. (Shanlung, I'd be much obliged if you let me talk with Walker about it now, I'm finally getting the conversation I've been looking for, d'accord?..)

 

Walker, according to one of my favorite interpreters of Taoist culture to Western minds, D.C. Lau, the notion of "plagiarism" is a particularly grey zone when we're dealing with taoism-related writings. Repeating what others wrote before you, often verbatim, has generally been seen as a sign of both veneration and continuation of the tradition, rather than stealing which Western copyright laws in service of protecting money (in most cases, the money of the monied) have criminalized. (I have an artist friend who believes these laws themselves are criminal, and artistic creations must belong to everybody, communal property so to speak, because the whole society is indirectly responsible for creating a creator, and he or she must give back freely -- authorship and ego and money considerations only matter in an artificial "stars system" elevating and propping the appointed dominant baboons Hollywood style. I argued with her, but I thought now may be a good time to bring up this view, somewhat extreme but not entirely without merit.)

 

In particular, D.C. Lau gives numerous examples where TTC either directly quotes the Yuandao (without the attribution) or rephrases it a bit, borrows the imagery, appropriates whole concepts and ideas, etc. etc.. What I was after in my initial inquiry is somewhat broader than condemning or exculpating Deng, which is certainly not my place to do since I had neither the time nor the inclination to dedicate a chunk of time to studying the incriminating evidence. (Nor am I in the habit of taking someone else's guilty verdict to heart without a personal investigation, so I have no opinion one way or the other in this particular case. And consequently never expressed one, contrary to a participant's puzzling belief.) So, did he hurt somebody, is that what happened? Is that what I missed? Did he wind up getting some money that by law should have gone to someone else? I thought he just pulled a Kumare... ... but did he actually put his hand in Blofeld's pocket or something?..