Suffering

[C T]

It must be the heart at the right side of the chest since every man of whatever race and religion and in whatever language he may be speaking, points to the right side of the chest to indicate himself when he says “I.” This is so all over the world, so that must be the place. And by keenly watching the emergence of the “I” - thought on waking and its subsidence on going to sleep, one can see that it is in the heart on the right side. (Ramana Maharshi, TBSRM, Chapter 1.)

Just asked my left-handed friend, and he pointed to his left side. 

[Jonesboy]

Haha

[dawei]

Just asked my left-handed friend, and he pointed to his left side. 

 

And chinese point to their nose in reference to "I"...  

[allinone]

Suffering is a choice but you need to realize why you are suffering in order to choose not to suffer.

Source of suffering doesn't disappear if i just choose to avoid it or escape it. I choose to solve the puzzle.

 

If suffering disappears because it disappeared without me understanding it, i am disappointed now, i used to be satisfied, but not anymore.

 

If its some outside help like good weather causing happiness in me, i am disappointed in myself,... because i don't understand why i became happy

Edited August 14, 2015 by allinone

[Karl]

Suffering is a choice but you need to realize why you are suffering in order to choose not to suffer.

Source of suffering doesn't disappear if i just choose to avoid it or escape it. I choose to solve the puzzle.

 

If suffering disappears because it disappeared without me understanding it, i am disappointed now, i used to be satisfied, but not anymore.

 

If its some outside help like good weather causing happiness in me, i am disappointed in myself,... because i don't understand why i became happy

 

Suffering must have a cause, it is impossible to be a cause of itself. One cannot suffer suffering. If the one who suffers does not know the cause, then by implication it is not choice, but ignorance of the root cause of suffering.

[allinone]

Suffering must have a cause, it is impossible to be a cause of itself. One cannot suffer suffering. If the one who suffers does not know the cause, then by implication it is not choice, but ignorance of the root cause of suffering.

I need to know what is the cause of suffering. Its the ignorance what is the cause of suffering.

But what is ignorance?

Does that mean someone has thought up an illusion what i don't know how to solve and therefore i draw wrong conclusions.

[Karl]

I need to know what is the cause of suffering. Its the ignorance what is the cause of suffering.

But what is ignorance?

Does that mean someone has thought up an illusion what i don't know how to solve and therefore i draw wrong conclusions.

 

Ignorance is insufficient, incomplete or corrupted knowledge.however 'that which is knowable can be known'.

I've just said this in the other thread. First define suffering, as opposed to something like physical pain, emotional grief, sadness or anger. It's only when something is first defined that the cause can begin to be identified.

[allinone]

Ignorance is insufficient, incomplete or corrupted knowledge.however 'that which is knowable can be known'. I've just said this in the other thread. First define suffering, as opposed to something like physical pain, emotional grief, sadness or anger. It's only when something is first defined that the cause can begin to be identified.

 

due to language barrier i can't understand your two last sentences.

[Karl]

due to language barrier i can't understand your two last sentences.

 

What is your definition of suffering ?

[allinone]

What is your definition of suffering ?

 

Everything is suffering. What is not suffering is my imagination how things should be.

[Karl]

Everything is suffering. What is not suffering is my imagination how things should be.

Wouldn't 'everything' include your imagination ?

Edited August 14, 2015 by Karl

[allinone]

Wouldn't 'everything' include your imagination ?

 

Tooth ache and the imagination of not aching are two different dimensions.  I can simplify that everything has a counter image of what i would want it to be.

[Karl]

Tooth ache and the imagination of not aching are two different dimensions.  I can simplify that everything has a counter image of what i would want it to be.

 

That's easily cured. Your suffering is caused by refusing to accept reality. The tooth ache is real, there is pain, it is unpleasant and of course you would prefer not to have it.

 

The tooth ache confirms your identity and shows you reality. The pain will be there, you will not like it, but neither will you suffer. When you are dead the pain and suffering will both end. Better to have the pain and life, than end suffering with death. You have that choice. I'm glad that I'm alive, I rejoice in it and celebrate it. Pain tells me I'm alive.

[Anderson]

I decided that suffering can be conquered by practicing Jaxchen.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Wouldn't 'everything' include your imagination ?

Karl, this is a Buddhist sub forum.

Are you going to pull your home made logical, rational materialistic therapy routine here too?

 

Your error here is not knowing the context and meaning of many of the terms that are used in Buddhism and you think you can apply them to ordinary language.

 

I would suggest learning about the term "dukkha" before you go off in your tangents..

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha

[Anderson]

I agree with everything you say therefore there is no need to fight me.

[Karl]

Karl, this is a Buddhist sub forum.

Are you going to pull your home made logical, rational materialistic therapy routine here too?

Your error here is not knowing the context and meaning of many of the terms that are used in Buddhism and you think you can apply them to ordinary language.

I would suggest learning about the term "dukkha" before you go off in your tangents..https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha

 

Then perhaps you have misheard the lesson ?

 

This seems entirely consistent with what I have said:

 

First of all, Buddhism is neither pessimistic nor optimistic. If anything at all, it is realistic, for it takes a realistic view of life and of the world. It looks at things objectively (yathābhūtam). It does not falsely lull you into living in a fool's paradise, nor does it frighten and agonize you with all kinds of imaginary fears and sins. It tells you exactly and objectively what you are and what the world around you is, and shows you the way to perfect freedom, peace, tranquility and happiness.

 

One physician may gravely exaggerate an illness and give up hope altogether. Another may ignorantly declare that there is no illness and that no treatment is necessary, thus deceiving the patient with a false consolation. You may call the first one pessimistic and the second optimistic. Both are equally dangerous. But a third physician diagnoses the symptoms correctly, understands the cause and the nature of the illness, sees clearly that it can be cured, and courageously administers a course of treatment, thus saving his patient. The Buddha is like the last physician. He is the wise and scientific doctor for the ills of the world (Bhisakka or Bhaisajya-guru).

 

Lama Surya Das emphasizes the matter-of-fact nature of dukkha:[13]

 

Buddha Dharma does not teach that everything is suffering. What Buddhism does say is that life, by its nature, is difficult, flawed, and imperfect. [...] That's the nature of life, and that's the First Noble Truth. From the Buddhist point of view, this is not a judgement of life's joys and sorrows; this is a simple, down-to-earth, matter-of-fact description.

 

 

 

Exactly, objectively and realistically. That is as clear as it can possibly be. You cannot misinterpret it.

[allinone]

That's easily cured. Your suffering is caused by refusing to accept reality. The tooth ache is real, there is pain, it is unpleasant and of course you would prefer not to have it. The tooth ache confirms your identity and shows you reality. The pain will be there, you will not like it, but neither will you suffer. When you are dead the pain and suffering will both end. Better to have the pain and life, than end suffering with death. You have that choice. I'm glad that I'm alive, I rejoice in it and celebrate it. Pain tells me I'm alive.

 

Pain is not everything nor imagination. Pain is like a dream, a wrong seeing or bad eyesight.

[Karl]

Pain is not everything nor imagination. Pain is like a dream, a wrong seeing or bad eyesight.

 

Pain just tells us something isn't quite right with our bodies. It's a pretty good mechanism. People with diabetic neuropathy can't feel their feet for instance and can damage their feet without ever knowing.

[allinone]

Pain just tells us something isn't quite right with our bodies. It's a pretty good mechanism. People with diabetic neuropathy can't feel their feet for instance and can damage their feet without ever knowing.

 

if body would be perfect then i wonder how much it would weight.

 

By logic, is it possible to see a perfect body?

[Karl]

if body would be perfect then i wonder how much it would weight.

 

By logic, is it possible to see a perfect body?

 

A body is as it is. That's objective reality. Logic only proves things are what they are.

[allinone]

A body is as it is. That's objective reality. Logic only proves things are what they are.

What perfect means is best of the best of the best of the best of the best or best best best best..

 

by logic there isn't existing perfect world. Everything is suffering.

[Karl]

What perfect means is best of the best of the best of the best of the best or best best best best..

 

by logic there isn't existing perfect world. Everything is suffering.

 

Logic says nothing about suffering. We can define 'the best of the best of the best, best, best, best. Then that becomes the datum for the argument in which we will use logic as the tool.

 

From the Wiki quote Buddhism does not say it either. Pain is not suffering. Suffering is believing there should not be pain.

 

You have no joy from life ?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Logic says nothing about suffering. We can define 'the best of the best of the best, best, best, best. Then that becomes the datum for the argument in which we will use logic as the tool. From the Wiki quote Buddhism does not say it either. Pain is not suffering. Suffering is believing there should not be pain. You have no joy from life ?

You ask if there is no joy from life? You are missing some pieces here..

According to Buddhism, joy promotes samsara and will not end suffering..

The fulfillment of desires just breeds more desires.

 

Perhaps you should now read the teaching of Dependent Origination...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nidānas

 

Due to ignorance (of underlying realities of existence) we process/ferment what comes to our mind.

 

2. This processing/fermentation causes karma to form and mould the status consciousness (vinyana).

 

3. The functioning/existence of the status consciousness has a close association with regards to sustaining life (one's existence).

 

4. "Name" and "Form" describes the non-material and material components of one's existence. "Name" are the constituents one's mind, consciousness and ideas... "Form" (material) are the constituents of the body (made of solids, liquids, gasses...).

 

5. The six sense bases of perception are composed of "Name" (the mind/vinyana...components) and "Form" (the solids, liquids, gasses... components).

 

6, 7. When the six sense bases of perception comes in contact with entities (ex. eye with external world, nose with fragrances,... mind with thoughts/memories...), they generate feelings (in the mind).

 

8. Next we generate/get desires for these feelings.

 

9. These desires makes one "cling onto" them (wanting more...).

 

10, 11. This clinging causes the generation of causations/factors (karma) that causes/leads/drags one into future births, so that such accumulated karma can take effect, can materialise... (The generation of sankhara /karma due to attachments, desires, longings, cravings... or due to the aversions, angers, hates... generated during the cause of such quests/pursuits... will lead one through eternal samsara resulting in the generation of yet further causations/karma, requiring further... Thus bonding one into this eternal journey...)

 

12. Then once one gets into a birth, one undergoes/endures all the sufferings associated with such...

 

1. But again due to our ignorance, we fail to realise the underlying nature/reality of existence. Thus veiled and shadowed by ignorance, we keep on generating the mental fermentations/volitions that keeps one further bonded to samsara...

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Logic says nothing about suffering. We can define 'the best of the best of the best, best, best, best. Then that becomes the datum for the argument in which we will use logic as the tool. From the Wiki quote Buddhism does not say it either. Pain is not suffering. Suffering is believing there should not be pain. You have no joy from life ?

You ask if there is no joy from life? You are missing some pieces here..

According to Buddhism, joy promotes samsara and will not end suffering..

The fulfillment of desires just breeds more desires.

 

Perhaps you should now read the teaching of Dependent Origination...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nidānas

 

Due to ignorance (of underlying realities of existence) we process/ferment what comes to our mind.

 

2. This processing/fermentation causes karma to form and mould the status consciousness (vinyana).

 

3. The functioning/existence of the status consciousness has a close association with regards to sustaining life (one's existence).

 

4. "Name" and "Form" describes the non-material and material components of one's existence. "Name" are the constituents one's mind, consciousness and ideas... "Form" (material) are the constituents of the body (made of solids, liquids, gasses...).

 

5. The six sense bases of perception are composed of "Name" (the mind/vinyana...components) and "Form" (the solids, liquids, gasses... components).

 

6, 7. When the six sense bases of perception comes in contact with entities (ex. eye with external world, nose with fragrances,... mind with thoughts/memories...), they generate feelings (in the mind).

 

8. Next we generate/get desires for these feelings.

 

9. These desires makes one "cling onto" them (wanting more...).

 

10, 11. This clinging causes the generation of causations/factors (karma) that causes/leads/drags one into future births, so that such accumulated karma can take effect, can materialise... (The generation of sankhara /karma due to attachments, desires, longings, cravings... or due to the aversions, angers, hates... generated during the cause of such quests/pursuits... will lead one through eternal samsara resulting in the generation of yet further causations/karma, requiring further... Thus bonding one into this eternal journey...)

 

12. Then once one gets into a birth, one undergoes/endures all the sufferings associated with such...

 

1. But again due to our ignorance, we fail to realise the underlying nature/reality of existence. Thus veiled and shadowed by ignorance, we keep on generating the mental fermentations/volitions that keeps one further bonded to samsara...