Dream Yoga

[Oneironaut]

Steve, I have several more questions for you. 

 

Would you recommend these two books for someone interested in learning the Tibetan methods? Here & here

 

Also, what do the day practices in the Tibetan methods consist of?

 

In the western methods there is the constant critical state testing in which you ask yourself if you're dreaming or awake whenever a "dream sign" pops up in your waking life. This is mainly to train the critical thinking faculties in your mind. Then there is also the prospective memory exercises to train your mind to remember for a planned future event. In this case it is literally to train your mind to remember when you're actually dreaming. 

 

In the Taoist methods Michael Winn says that building your energy body through your daily qigong practice naturally makes the lucid dreaming practices at night nearly effortless compared to anything else. 

 

The western and Taoist methods do resemble one another when it comes to things such as setting your intentions, reflecting on your dreams & doing a dream gesture or reality check but do vary significantly when it comes to daytime practices.

 

Lastly, how do the Tibetans stabilize the dream state?

 

I've had tons of lucid dreams lasting under 30 seconds. It's rather frustrating. In the western methods taught by LaBerge he recommends spinning to prolong the dream. That never worked for me. I've found that staring at the ground beneath my feet and then looking away is a hit or miss method. I can sometimes dream lucidly for around 5-15 minutes with that method. 

 

My conclusion is that the western methods consist of too much pointless effort and can only work so well. Even seasoned lucid dreamers have issues and tend to look towards chemicals and even then there is no guarantee of success. In the western methods there is no emphasis in meditation, energy work, visualization or building mindful awareness. You have the so called skeptics behaving as if they know more about dreams and dreaming practices than the Tibetans themselves. Pathetic.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Oneironaut

[Songtsan]

I would add that what we experience is a creation of the minds, plural. Whether you see it as the unconscious, subconscious, and conscious; LDT, MDT, UDT; or the enteric, somatic/autonomic, and central nervous systems, etc. It is a unified axis of minds which can maintain supreme awareness within, regardless of which mind you are most in.

 

Anyways, I used to practice westernized lucid dreaming techniques, and had good results with the following techniques:

-wake to sleep: set your alarm early, then go right back to sleep

-constantly question whether you are dreaming, all day long...this will ingrain the habit within you, and result in catching dreams.

-find cues in everyday themes that trigger a 'am I dreaming check' such as any time you see sneakers, or anytime you notice yourself playing with a ring you usually wear, etc.

-tratak exercises

-pure intention to wake up in the dream, either through mantra, or direct without words, held strong until one falls asleep

-master relaxation technique so fierce, that one can go directly from wake to dream, without losing lucidity. Practice a one hour savasana sometime

[steve]

Steve, I have several more questions for you. 

 

Would you recommend these two books for someone interested in learning the Tibetan methods? Here & here

The book by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche is the book I recommended earlier. That covers the Bönpo methods quite comprehensively. The book by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is probably quite good but I've never read it so I can't comment.

 

 

Also, what do the day practices in the Tibetan methods consist of?

 

Those were mentioned in post #3

I don't want to get too specific because I'm a student, not a teacher of this method and would prefer everyone learn from a more authoritative source.

 

 

In the western methods there is the constant critical state testing in which you ask yourself if you're dreaming or awake whenever a "dream sign" pops up in your waking life. This is mainly to train the critical thinking faculties in your mind. Then there is also the prospective memory exercises to train your mind to remember for a planned future event. In this case it is literally to train your mind to remember when you're actually dreaming. 

 

In the Taoist methods Michael Winn says that building your energy body through your daily qigong practice naturally makes the lucid dreaming practices at night nearly effortless compared to anything else. 

 

The western and Taoist methods do resemble one another when it comes to things such as setting your intentions, reflecting on your dreams & doing a dream gesture or reality check but do vary significantly when it comes to daytime practices.

Lastly, how do the Tibetans stabilize the dream state?

 

From the instructions I've received from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche through his book, an online course, and a personal retreat, the way to develop stability seems to be focused on -

 

1. Developing more and more stability in our connection with the nature of mind through the 3 doors practices. This is the key. From the perspective of the nature of mind, dreams and waking life are on equal footing. So it is this perspective that helps us gain the freedom to be lucid in our waking life and in dreams. I suspect that the Daoist approach is similar in that meditation and qigong are doorways to this fundamental nature, as are the 3 doors.

 

2. Strengthening our intention to engage in and be successful with the practice through prayer and feelings of gratitude, devotion, and trust. This is a very traditional approach. The "fuel" of Tibetan Buddhist practices is both external and internal refuge. While Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche seems to be very progressive in his teaching method on the surface, I suspect that he is very traditional at heart. He seems to be doing his best to adapt tradition so that it is accessible and effective for Westerners.

 

3. Avoiding the error of letting our ignorance and grasping from interfering with the process. This is done through approaching the practices with a sense of playfulness along with the gratitude and trust. This is the antidote to frustration. In the morning we review the night, celebrate any success, and recommit to the practice. We do not indulge in frustration or self criticism. When those feelings arise, as they inevitably will, we acknowledge them, see them for what they are (transient thoughts, expectations, grasping), and allow them to fully be and then go back to where they came from - emptiness.

 

 

I've had tons of lucid dreams lasting under 30 seconds. It's rather frustrating. In the western methods taught by LaBerge he recommends spinning to prolong the dream. That never worked for me. I've found that staring at the ground beneath my feet and then looking away is a hit or miss method. I can sometimes dream lucidly for around 5-15 minutes with that method. 

 

My conclusion is that the western methods consist of too much pointless effort and can only work so well. Even seasoned lucid dreamers have issues and tend to look towards chemicals and even then there is no guarantee of success. In the western methods there is no emphasis in meditation, energy work, visualization or building mindful awareness. You have the so called skeptics behaving as if they know more about dreams and dreaming practices than the Tibetans themselves. Pathetic.

 

I think it's very important to be careful about building up too much emphasis on success and failure, expectations and attachment to the method. The method is powerful. It will yield its bounty in its own good time based on our proclivity and dedication. If it is not yielding the type of result we want, we will have a better chance of success if we figure out how to be OK with that - it means we need to focus on our connection to the source and look more carefully at how we are doing the daytime and nighttime practices. There are more helpful suggestions regarding how to stabilize and progress in the book and if you sign up for an online workshop, you can ask Rinpoche questions directly. 

 

I don't have any experience with any other dream yoga instructions or instructors so I won't comment much on others. Rinpoche did make the point that Western teachers tend to be more focused on the content and self indulgence. The Tibetan approach always stays anchored in the mindset of working toward liberation in order to help others, the Mahayana view. 

 

All of the above is just my own personal opinion and experience. I'm not authorized or qualified to teach this stuff.

Just trying to help people understand its existence, value, and availability, and answer these excellent questions as best I can.

Good luck!

[Oneironaut]

Thanks Steve I sincerely appreciate your reply. I'm thinking of signing up for an online course. You can do that straight off Rinponche's site I believe. I'll go and check that out. If you need any info based on the Taoist methods let me know and I'll be glad to help you out.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Oneironaut

[steve]

As far as I know, the dream yoga workshops are conducted through the glidewing productions website.

Last I checked the next one's date is TBA.

The ligmincha.org website should have more info.

Thanks for the offer - I'm pretty much married to the Bönpo approach right now.

It's working for me (albeit slowly) and fits into the context of my other practices.

[Songtsan]

Half the reason I would lose a lucid dream was because I got so excited that I had become lucid, and interested in exploring my lucidity, that I would wake up. So I started trying to remind myself that the next step when lucidity was reached was to try to do very little, to avoid that effort of will which would spark a wake up.

[steve]

Half the reason I would lose a lucid dream was because I got so excited that I had become lucid, and interested in exploring my lucidity, that I would wake up. So I started trying to remind myself that the next step when lucidity was reached was to try to do very little, to avoid that effort of will which would spark a wake up.

 

I also find there are varying degrees of lucidity. Some are more stable and allow more methodical action. In general, there is not a lot of time for me to waste, I need to be able react immediately and engage in whatever lucid activity I choose. They key again is to set a very strong intention prior to sleep rather than trying to act on the fly during the dream. This doesn't always work but it helps.

[forestofemptiness]

I have both of the dream yoga books, and would generally recommend TWR over ChNNR dream yoga book. The reason is that ChNNR is fairly tightly wrapped up with his method of guru yoga, which requires transmission (although this tranmission is fairly freely given).

 

I do think dream yoga generally is tightly wound up with general Buddhist practice. I believe in both cases that dream yoga is a secondary practice. Beyond that, there is also quite a bit of Buddhist symbolism, and this symbolism integrates into a larger practice context. A lot of the symbols get there power through frequent use in different contexts. For example, the Tibetan letter "AH" is very important in certain practices, but may not be as important to someone who doesn't practice in this way. So working with this letter is going to be a different experience depending on one's background.

[thelerner]

My practice uses attention to the inside/outside impressions.

 

Before bed, when all the lights are off, I walk slowly around the house, and around the outside of the house and use my feeling sense to carefully feel out the energy qualities or possible spirits in the area I exist within. I pay particular attention to any living denizens of the animal or plant variety that also share the location.

 

Then I go to bed. In bed I continue to be aware of my local environment, but also shift my attention to feeling myself. The qualities that I am composed of. I look at how well the different aspects of myself are working together or not. If not, this gentle form of attention is often enough to correct things.

 

Next I often spend some time feeding the location and its beings with appreciation and gratitude, and then I let myself start to wander about, {with my mind senses} and I see what unfolds from there. Depending how it goes, sooner or later I drift into sleep and dreams.

 

This tends to be a great way for me to unpack my day, straighten things out within me, and keeps me learning about the nature of the dreaming soul, perception, and the Animistic universe.

Thank you for this.  What a great practice for honing awareness. 

[Dream]

Hi i'm not an expert but i like the topic.

 

There are forums about Astral Travels / OBEs / Lucid dreams with a lot of information.

 

It's true that what you do when you project, what is the important, that depends on the person/beliefs/etc. But the methods and techniques are very useful.

 

Also, you may like Robert Monroe Books, or Carlos Castaneda books. They wrote a lot about this topic. In particular Robert Monroe with his phashing method, different from the old 'out of the body method'

 

Greetings

[ChiForce]

I thought I should comment here since I literally received my transmission in my dreams....hehehehehe....

 

There are there levels of dream meditations you must overcome or at least to proceed in stages...dreams of samsara, dreams of clarity, and clear light dreams.  Don't expect to have clear light dreams if your mind is plagued by your own daily karma.  Worst, plagued by your past life karma.  

 

First, resolve your daily karma and issues you have so that you could no longer have bad dreams.  You know those repeated nightmares about your past and childhood?  Yeah, those dreams....  This would require more conscious efforts to deal with your daily suffering and struggles.  Once you have a handle of your own self generated karma, it would get carried over to your dreams.  Here, you will begin to experience lucid dreaming.  Lucid dreaming is not the dreams of clarity.  Is just lucid dreaming.    In the dreams of clarity, you will receive information and teaching from higher beings.  The clear light dreams won't appear until you have advanced enough in your meditation and cultivation level.  I think I have experienced ONCE a clear light dream and the duration of being in a clear light is only less than 10s.    I am talking about 15 years after my dream transmission to experience the MCO.  Is basically a state of deep samadhi but experienced in a dream state.    I only woke up from it because I worry about my parents.     

 

Dream yoga is suited for people who aren't involved with the Buddhist community but somewhat caught up with the daily karma.  Only in dreams can the conscious mind be calm enough to meditate in sleep.     

Edited August 8, 2015 by ChiForce

[Songtsan]

Just saw this on Facebook: http://yournewswire.com/7-herbs-that-alter-your-consciousness-create-amazing-dreams-are-legal/

[seekingbuddha]

Does anyone know a reference to a Sutta where Buddha directly classifies or defines "what substances are considered  intoxicants" ?  I ask this because i came across a Alan Watts video, where he says there are about 5 or 7 substances that were mentioned in ancient texts.  He did not give reference to them directly.  I have my doubts about this, because i have consistently come across only the word "intoxicant" used in a generic sense in all the Suttas that I have read.    What does an intoxicant do ? It alters the state of the mind by artificial/chemical  means.  

[C T]

looks like an interesting site for pursuing/exploring Dream work

 

http://www.awakeacademy.org/