experience with impact weapons or strike enhancers?

[Marblehead]

...........    @ 1.00    

Yes, the master is very good.  However, I will add that his lady student held back on every one of her strikes just to make sure she didn't hurt her master.

[Marblehead]

 However, it's quite tricky to grab the wrist of a really experienced knife fighter. Unless you are very skilful and/or have stunned them by a blow previously, chances are that they pull their hand out, and pull the knife right through yours on the way.

Yep.  In most cases trying to disarm a knife man would be very dangerous.  Better to disable them first.

[Michael Sternbach]

Yeah, but the stick man was a two-way dummy.

 

First, he didn't even swing his stick with any authority and secondly he allowed the knife man to get within striking distance.

 

Yes, it's a wide spread phenomenon that the "attacker" in a demonstration or training session doesn't act realistically.

[Nungali]

We occasionally got away with a bit of realism in training (instructors dont like it much )  , an Aikido teacher suggested the technique  in post #23 but the attacker had a 2nd knife in the other hand and was instructed to try and actually get the other person. 

 

Interesting .   I got 'killed' .   But only as I had to defend using aikido, if i  had broken the lead arm at the beginning of apply Koto gaeshi  I doubt he would have continued the way he did .

 

A lot of people do that technique wrong, often, when it was done on me they tried it in the wrong position, as I back rolled I just re positioned my leg to kick them in the head as I rolled out. They would bend down as they applied backwards and downwards pressure -  also lowering the head  for me  ..... so I didnt have to extend my kick much .... I mean, my foot is right there .... your head is right there ... what am I supposed to do   (its like waving a steak in front of a dog    )

 

Curiously, some found it offensive and said not to do it, or 'that was not a correct roll', others said 'what was that? Where did that come from ? ' and wanted to know what they were doing wrong,  ( aside from not being that close in the first place, if you are; the inside arm should extend out from  the body in a curved shape { like it is in an Aikido forward roll } beyond a line from their foot to your head  the elbow a little further out, any kick will glance off the arm or collect the point of the elbow )  or others would never have put themselves in that position in the first place. 

Edited September 27, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

here is a great practice weapon ;

 

Inner core of bamboo, it has enough strength and flexibility to be used fairly realistically ( foamies are soft and wobble) , but it can split ans=d splinter and that can be very dangerous, so I insert this inside a length of plastic electrical conduit, that is then inside hollow foam tubing they use to insulate hot water pipes ... without the bamboo inside it is too flexible. 

 

Also you do not need armor on  - too slow and bulky ... its fairly safe ( make the ends extra safe  and padded for thrusting technique} but you do know when you have been hit and you can go pretty full on with them ....  

 

whallop ! 

 

have fun

Edited September 27, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Yeah, but the stick man was a two-way dummy.

 

First, he didn't even swing his stick with any authority and secondly he allowed the knife man to get within striking distance.

 

yes, that is true and boring and typical ....   demos ! 

 

But then again, sometimes with my instructor, he will tap me and I will let go, or I will attack him with diminished power and speed ..... a few times when I have done the opposite, I didnt come off too good . 

 

he will demo a technique for people and also go soft on me - understandable .... but jeeze guys ... when you doing a demo ! or making a film .... pull ya sox up ! 

 

{ Once I went with him to exchange  stuff with an instructor from another style ... they used me as the dummy to show each other stuff, and their was a bit of  rivalry between them ; 'We do that this way; wack, smash throw ( on Nungali ) ... no no, its better to it this way ... flip, twist,  smash (on Nungali )   ... man     was I black and blue for few days !     

Edited September 27, 2015 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

We occasionally got away with a bit of realism in training (instructors dont like it much )  , an Aikido teacher suggested the technique  in post #23 but the attacker had a 2nd knife in the other hand and was instructed to try and actually get the other person. 

 

Interesting .   I got 'killed' .   But only as I had to defend using aikido, if i  had broken the lead arm at the beginning of apply Koto gaeshi  I doubt he would have continued the way he did .

Tough position you got put in there.  An unarmed man against a man with two knives will almost always get killed.  (Unless he has the legs of Chuck Norris.)

[Marblehead]

A lot of people do that technique wrong, often, when it was done on me they tried it in the wrong position, as I back rolled I just re positioned my leg to kick them in the head as I rolled out. They would bend down as they applied backwards and downwards pressure -  also lowering the head  for me  ..... so I didnt have to extend my kick much .... I mean, my foot is right there .... your head is right there ... what am I supposed to do   (its like waving a steak in front of a dog    )

Yes, if someone offers you their head you should kick it. 

[Marblehead]

yes, that is true and boring and typical ....   demos ! 

 

But then again, sometimes with my instructor, he will tap me and I will let go, or I will attack him with diminished power and speed ..... a few times when I have done the opposite, I didnt come off too good . 

 

he will demo a technique for people and also go soft on me - understandable .... but jeeze guys ... when you doing a demo ! or making a film .... pull ya sox up ! 

 

{ Once I went with him to exchange  stuff with an instructor from another style ... they used me as the dummy to show each other stuff, and their was a bit of  rivalry between them ; 'We do that this way; wack, smash throw ( on Nungali ) ... no no, its better to it this way ... flip, twist,  smash (on Nungali )   ... man     was I black and blue for few days !     

That is funny.  How can you even properly defend yourself when you are supposed to be a dummy?  I'll bet you learned something from it though.  Perhaps if nothing else to never go to those types of get togethers again.

[Nungali]

Actually, the other guy, one of those professionals who was making a living out of it ( hence all sorts of monkey business going on ) , school, fees, trophies (so many it seemed  neurotic ! ) , constant competitions ,  and a lot of 'dans' attached to his black belt , used to get me around there to show him stuff ( me without any belt )  ... I had to come at a quiet time, park unseen around the back and he would slip me $$$ to show him weapon forms and techniques. 

 

he probably charges a fortune now to teach them. When I see him he is pretty friendly, unless he is with others, then he seems a but furtive and nervous ( probably thinks I am gonna blab something ) . 

Edited September 27, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Here is a funny one, this same  guy's dojo has a wall with all the weapons he teaches on display. I noticed a fake gun.

 

"You dont teach unarmed defense against a hand gun do you ? " 

 

Him; "Sure .....  grab the gun and I will show you " 

 

 

"Okay then . "    < take up gun move away from him, turn and point it at him from a few meters away  >  "hand over your wallet or I will shoot you  "  

 

   I didnt give him a chance to show me how he wanted me to use the gun (up close probably ) .... so he takes out the wallet and drops it on the ground .

 

"Uh arrr , smart arse, kick it over here. "   He does and I pick it up .

 

he goes,  " Ha ! Its just a cheap  going out wallet with about $20 in it . "

 

" Oh !?  Smart arse  eh  ? "   .....    points gun  " Bang ! " 

 

" Thats for being a smart arse ! "

 

(He was doing fine until he opened his mouth     )

Edited September 27, 2015 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

Speaking of all this, I watched a movie last night, "Blood Money" staring Zheng Liu.  Rather gritty movie, lot of blood and violence but also some great martial arts including various weapons.

[Marblehead]

And that last one reminded me:  Don't take a knife to a gun fight.

[Michael Sternbach]

We occasionally got away with a bit of realism in training (instructors dont like it much )  , an Aikido teacher suggested the technique  in post #23 but the attacker had a 2nd knife in the other hand and was instructed to try and actually get the other person. 

 

Interesting .   I got 'killed' .   But only as I had to defend using aikido, if i  had broken the lead arm at the beginning of apply Koto gaeshi  I doubt he would have continued the way he did .

 

A lot of people do that technique wrong, often, when it was done on me they tried it in the wrong position, as I back rolled I just re positioned my leg to kick them in the head as I rolled out. They would bend down as they applied backwards and downwards pressure -  also lowering the head  for me  ..... so I didnt have to extend my kick much .... I mean, my foot is right there .... your head is right there ... what am I supposed to do   (its like waving a steak in front of a dog    )

 

Curiously, some found it offensive and said not to do it, or 'that was not a correct roll', others said 'what was that? Where did that come from ? ' and wanted to know what they were doing wrong,  ( aside from not being that close in the first place, if you are; the inside arm should extend out from  the body in a curved shape { like it is in an Aikido forward roll } beyond a line from their foot to your head  the elbow a little further out, any kick will glance off the arm or collect the point of the elbow )  or others would never have put themselves in that position in the first place. 

 

Even if you do kote-gaeshi in an "abbreviated" form minus the step/turn (irimi tenkan), this discussion by Stanley Pranin remains conclusive:

 

[Nungali]

And that last one reminded me:  Don't take a knife to a gun fight.

 

 

Although I agree, how can I resist posting this  ( from the 'Master' - Dan Inosanto  . I have one of his early books , he says he was asked to remove the knife fighting sections before publication - which he did ... but he makes the comment that, with right considerations, one can observe the techniques with the other weapons and apply that to knife. )

 

Anyway ..  Gun  Vs, knife   ?   ( Police training film ) ;

 

.

 

[Nungali]

Even if you do kote-gaeshi in an "abbreviated" form minus the step/turn (irimi tenkan), this discussion by Stanley Pranin remains conclusive:

 

Actually he could have remedied the first demonstrated mistake by changing the footwork placement and he would have been more behind and further away from his opponent.  

 

And yep, there are several (more) ways to remedy that mistake

[Nungali]

Mention has been made of 'brass knuckles' (tekko)  .  An empty handed version is 'at hand' with ' tekko fist'.

 

The fist is held tightly with the thumb to the side and its tip pressing into the outside of the middle joint of the index finger.  The two middle knuckles of the index and big finger are used in a whipping or cracking motion.  Its one interpretation of some of the movements in Naihanchi forms.

 

It can be good against someone that wants to close in with L / R   ( or opposite )  combo ;   he leads with R , you evade slightly forward and duck to your right while whipping your right across to strike with those knuckles on his  R  LU9.  At the same time other hand comes across and under L arm to guard the R torso  ( crossed arm ..... crane style ) .

 

If its quick enough the next attack, from the opponent's  left will be coming at your now exposed ( and leaning that way from the previous duck ) head. So you shift weight to the left, duck head to your left and whip your right back, now as a glancing backfist strike at his left 'funny bone' from underneath. ( and hands u cross { 'wings open' }  so your right has moved to your left to continue the control of his right hand. 

 

At this stage I had two dead, painful and tingling arms that were half hanging, half twitching in spasms ( my 'Joe Cocker' stance     )  , 

 

The next bit is you shuffle in and deliver downward striking  'tekko-ken'  with those knuckles just below the eye and rake down. 

 

yeah ... its not a technique taught in class  ( supposed to be 'secret'  ) . It was one of Mr Nishihira's  - nasty, rip half your face off      .

 

He would, in teaching it, feint  at the face, place the knuckles on the chest, press in and run them down and then twist them. The other goes flying back - thats the nice way of doing it.  One guy said he had an exclamation point shaped bruise down his chest for about a week from it. 

 

We just stop at or near the head. If its done right the other is already disabled from the 'stings' ( we use slaps in training ... most of the time    ) . And the shuffled in foot placements totally disrupt the others stance ( I have never been good at that bit ) . 

 

The great advantage is, if some idiot is swinging punches at you, you can keep back, out of range and 'tap' at the offending 'article' without having to smash someone.  A couple of times they have stopped at the first one and backed off  shaking and rubbing their hand and  'doing a little dance ' .  

 

" Oh ... I am sorry ... <bows>  that hand attacked me - so I attacked it back . "  

 

{ Actually that reminds me ; there was a friendly once between a martial arts fight choreographer and a well known boxer on off time on a film I was working on ... a few people were interested to see how the boxer dealt with all the kicks and different strikes ... he dodged back and punched them .     ) 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

Even if you do kote-gaeshi in an "abbreviated" form minus the step/turn (irimi tenkan), this discussion by Stanley Pranin remains conclusive:

 

Excellent video!

[Michael Sternbach]

Excellent video!

 

Glad you like it. Stanley Pranin has more excellent videos on Youtube.

[Songtsan]

Some minor experience with ratan/escrima, very strong/fast, tends to powder bone on impact. In Indonesia, they are considered true swords.

[Nungali]

if the movements are done correctly ,,,, at the end of the stick, an incredible amount of  force can be delivered.

 

Powdered bone ?      Now  that's  a  'bruise' !. 

[steve]

So I was wondering does anyone on here have any real world or sparring experience with impact weapons such as batons tonfas saps etc Or strike enhancers like brass knuckles kubotans etc?

 

Like how well do they work in a fight? Did they break? Did they hurt you more than the opponent? Etc? Any input is appreciated. 

 

Thanks

 

Any and all of the above are as effective as the person wielding them.

The longer and narrower the weapon, the more likely it will break - material is important. 

Anything can be used against you by a superior martial artist and anything wrapped around your fingers or wrist can cause some pain, injury, or used to control you. Beware of any weapons you can't easily let go of if needed. 

 

If you are looking for a self-defense tool, pepper spray is quite good but even that requires appropriate preparation, training, and accessibility. 

 

Something that can be quite effective, perfectly legal in all jurisdictions, and even permitted on a plane is a cane.

Again, you need to put in the time to learn how to use it but it can be an awesome weapon, hidden in plain sight.

 

https://www.canemasters.com/

[Songtsan]

I always thought that a few 1.75" ball bearings would make good weapons. Thrown at short or moderate distance, with practice, could really hurt.

 

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/BearingBalls/Kit8610

[Nungali]

Years back, when I started work as a postman (on a little Honda 90 step through balancing huge mail bags)  the 'old hand' postman teaching me gave me his design for a dog wacker ....   1 1/2 " plastic tubing filled with small bearings or shot ... flexible, weighty  and doesnt leave a mark . 

 

I decoded to start chucking a biscuit to them instead . 

[leth]

I decoded to start chucking a biscuit to them instead . 

 

Biscuits are indeed one of the most powerfull of weapons.