Awakening versus enlightenment

[Orion]

The chakras are part of an energy state, and they can all take place in the presence of egoic and mental functions. The energy body is beyond ego and will be there whether you are sinking into present awareness or not. There are people with all their chakras open who don't even know it, because they're still functioning on an ego level. I'm not convinced by the Vedic assertions that kundalini = enlightenment. I was having kundalini as a teenager when I still identified as "me", with all the trimmings. Present awareness is never gone, it only has the illusion of separation layered over it. Hence why you can have kundalini, and an accompanying ego to take credit for it. "Yay! I did this!" Oh really?

The brightest, most gold auras I've ever seen have been from practitioners who "step out" during their practice and let their Divine connection guide the operation. Some of them have this talent innately and don't know they're doing it, while for others it is cultivated. The awake ones can operate this way even outside of their targeted spirit work. On the other hand, I met a lawyer once who had a super gold aura, and admitted he had private spiritual practices... he was a very compassionate person. At the time he had cancer and ended up dying. I didn't see indications that he was awake, yet he had this immensely divine energy about him. On a spirit level he was obviously doing amazing things. Of course, I'm judging this all based on how he spoke to me. You can't really tell what's going on inside of a person. Their outer visage could be quite mundane but their private consciousness could be doing some crazy stuff.

Think of it this way. A lot of people have a meditation practice where they sit and experience emptiness or connection, or kundalini, or whatever. Then they get up and go about their day to day lives. But it's a false separation because the meditation never ends. If ego re-engages then you're just doing the ego meditation. Or the worry meditation. Or whatever million things the mind comes up with. Most people wake up in the morning from their sleep meditation, and immediately start doing the "me" meditation, ostensibly until the end of their day when they go back to sleeping again.

The crown chakra doesn't necessary indicate an awakened person, but access to an additional layer of one's own energy body. The energy body can be directing the physical, mental, and emotional bodies, and ego may or may not be aware of it. It doesn't really matter either way because the functions are still happening. Reality is what it is, etc. Being awakened just means that you are in alignment with these processes, sans the imaginary middle man, it doesn't mean that your awakening is a product of them, per se. However, I do believe the crown contains information and spiritual access which may point the ego toward its own redundancy. On the other hand, people who are ungrounded will lack useful insight even if the crown is open, because there will be no earthly realm to connect it all to practical understanding. If you don't feel awakening in your physical body, then the process isn't complete. That's why I don't get why people are so hung up over the crown. There are lots of people walking around - Vata types - with upper chakras that are innately more open, yet their lower chakras are so under-developed that they are still floating around blithely.

 

To put this another way... awakening means you realize there are no levels. There are no chakras, there's no spiritual ladder, no up or down. No going anywhere. It's all just happening right now. It's all One Thing. Yet seemingly there is substance, chakras, and other levels... or whatever else is happening, precipitating out of this oneness experience. Oneness is capable of producing anything. If you're trying to reach enlightenment by opening your crown -- where is it that you think you're going? Do you think you're actually responsible for what's happening here?

 

Awakening isn't light or dark. It's completely empty and devoid of all meaning. It's not non-existence, it just renders everything liberated and pointless, including you. At first it can be traumatic because you don't quite get it, but then when you realize there's nothing to actually get or achieve, you have a hearty laugh. Welcome to freedom, you're totally fucked

Edited September 21, 2015 by Orion

[manitou]

I think enlightenment pertains not only to the presence of Light that we finally uncover, but it also pertains to 'enlightening ourselves of our personal baggage' through the inner work.  Enlightening ourselves of the structure of any particular religion, enlightening ourselves of judgement of everyone else (thereby enforcing our own egos and the illusion of separation from each other), enlightening ourselves from Fear because once we know that We are It, we are the walking, talking, thinking manifestation of That Which Is, what is there to fear?

Edited September 21, 2015 by manitou

[Jetsun]

To put this another way... awakening means you realize there are no levels. There are no chakras, there's no spiritual ladder, no up or down. No going anywhere. It's all just happening right now. It's all One Thing. Yet seemingly there is substance, chakras, and other levels... or whatever else is happening, precipitating out of this oneness experience. Oneness is capable of producing anything. If you're trying to reach enlightenment by opening your crown -- where is it that you think you're going? Do you think you're actually responsible for what's happening here?

 

Awakening isn't light or dark. It's completely empty and devoid of all meaning. It's not non-existence, it just renders everything liberated and pointless, including you. At first it can be traumatic because you don't quite get it, but then when you realize there's nothing to actually get or achieve, you have a hearty laugh. Welcome to freedom, you're totally fucked

 

One of the quotes of the Buddha is "I truly attained nothing from complete, unexcelled Enlightenment." 

 

That is pretty much what I have experienced during the flashes and moments when I have been around awakened teachers, the first significant moment was a complete shock as I instantly recognised that I won't get what I want out of this and there is no victory in it for me, because I wasn't there to experience it, it was also accompanied afterwards by a sense of horror. Since then basically my mind has been doing its best to deny the reality of it and occasionally has horror dreams, yet I still get drawn towards it even though I know on some level it is my own destruction.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

Many years ago it occurred to me quite forcefully that if I were indeed to become "enlightened," I would no longer be able to operate in society in quite the same way. In other words, that it would isolate me from the common run of humanity.

 

I didn't like this idea.

 

It really made me quite ambivalent about the prospect.

 

I think from that time forward any "spiritual practice" I undertook, I did so without thought of the results.

 

I just did it.

 

I don't know why.

 

I often don't know why I do the things I do.

 

Sometimes I reget it.

 

I'm fucked too.

 

Can you face your complete destruction?

 

 

ps Concurrent with my "kundalini" arising, a blazing golden sphere appeared above my head. Probably God or something. Ha ha.

...

Edited September 21, 2015 by Captain Mar-Vell

[allinone]

 

 

It depends on the person and their spontaneous route to awakening. Being in the presence of an awakened person, and their teachings, can definitely incite awakening and give you something to shoot for. So can reading books. For me it didn't work that way. I read books and listened to gurus for years, and maybe they helped plant the seed, I don't know; but it was ultimately the intense events in my own life which triggered it. It happened at a time when I wasn't receiving spiritual teachings or hanging around high level people. In fact, it happened in the most down and out place imaginable.

 

There's no right or wrong way. You can follow prescriptions if you want. Free will means an unlimited exploration of different potentials. It's just not possible to predict if and when it will happen.

 

enlightenment is possible to predict.

[allinone]

Beautiful post, Orion.  A breath of fresh air.

 

This is what I've discovered too.  Is that is just happened, and continues to happen.  It's a process, not a destination.  Once the Oneness with all things is discovered, felt, and experienced - then it's a lifetime of dealing with the ramifications of that, with the further development of that reality within our lives.

 destination is already chosen

[dwai]

The chakras are part of an energy state, and they can all take place in the presence of egoic and mental functions. The energy body is beyond ego and will be there whether you are sinking into present awareness or not. There are people with all their chakras open who don't even know it, because they're still functioning on an ego level. I'm not convinced by the Vedic assertions that kundalini = enlightenment. I was having kundalini as a teenager when I still identified as "me", with all the trimmings. Present awareness is never gone, it only has the illusion of separation layered over it. Hence why you can have kundalini, and an accompanying ego to take credit for it. "Yay! I did this!" Oh really?

 

The brightest, most gold auras I've ever seen have been from practitioners who "step out" during their practice and let their Divine connection guide the operation. Some of them have this talent innately and don't know they're doing it, while for others it is cultivated. The awake ones can operate this way even outside of their targeted spirit work. On the other hand, I met a lawyer once who had a super gold aura, and admitted he had private spiritual practices... he was a very compassionate person. At the time he had cancer and ended up dying. I didn't see indications that he was awake, yet he had this immensely divine energy about him. On a spirit level he was obviously doing amazing things. Of course, I'm judging this all based on how he spoke to me. You can't really tell what's going on inside of a person. Their outer visage could be quite mundane but their private consciousness could be doing some crazy stuff.

 

Think of it this way. A lot of people have a meditation practice where they sit and experience emptiness or connection, or kundalini, or whatever. Then they get up and go about their day to day lives. But it's a false separation because the meditation never ends. If ego re-engages then you're just doing the ego meditation. Or the worry meditation. Or whatever million things the mind comes up with. Most people wake up in the morning from their sleep meditation, and immediately start doing the "me" meditation, ostensibly until the end of their day when they go back to sleeping again.

 

The crown chakra doesn't necessary indicate an awakened person, but access to an additional layer of one's own energy body. The energy body can be directing the physical, mental, and emotional bodies, and ego may or may not be aware of it. It doesn't really matter either way because the functions are still happening. Reality is what it is, etc. Being awakened just means that you are in alignment with these processes, sans the imaginary middle man, it doesn't mean that your awakening is a product of them, per se. However, I do believe the crown contains information and spiritual access which may point the ego toward its own redundancy. On the other hand, people who are ungrounded will lack useful insight even if the crown is open, because there will be no earthly realm to connect it all to practical understanding. If you don't feel awakening in your physical body, then the process isn't complete. That's why I don't get why people are so hung up over the crown. There are lots of people walking around - Vata types - with upper chakras that are innately more open, yet their lower chakras are so under-developed that they are still floating around blithely.

 

To put this another way... awakening means you realize there are no levels. There are no chakras, there's no spiritual ladder, no up or down. No going anywhere. It's all just happening right now. It's all One Thing. Yet seemingly there is substance, chakras, and other levels... or whatever else is happening, precipitating out of this oneness experience. Oneness is capable of producing anything. If you're trying to reach enlightenment by opening your crown -- where is it that you think you're going? Do you think you're actually responsible for what's happening here?

 

Awakening isn't light or dark. It's completely empty and devoid of all meaning. It's not non-existence, it just renders everything liberated and pointless, including you. At first it can be traumatic because you don't quite get it, but then when you realize there's nothing to actually get or achieve, you have a hearty laugh. Welcome to freedom, you're totally fucked

I don't think the Vedas talk about Kundalini. Kundalini is part of the Samkhya/Yoga system. The entire system of Indian phenomenology/elemental theory is samkhya.  Don't go conflating these together

 

The paradox of existence... How can you deny your physical existence? Being "awakened" doesn't  prevent you from feeling pain, anger, sorrow etc. You still do...you just don't ascribe the "value" to them as you used to before. You still eat, shit, breath, fart, sleep...

[allinone]

Earth circles around sun. Moon circles around earth. Its planetary system what circles around sun. Sun as one of the many suns will circle around something else.

 

Center of everything is God and lives forever. 

[allinone]

If you are just aware or awakened and do not do anything else, i guess you worshiping moon. (a guess)

Edited September 21, 2015 by allinone

[Bindi]

 

Awakening isn't light or dark. It's completely empty and devoid of all meaning. It's not non-existence, it just renders everything liberated and pointless, including you. At first it can be traumatic because you don't quite get it, but then when you realize there's nothing to actually get or achieve, you have a hearty laugh. Welcome to freedom, you're totally fucked

 

 

 

 

“First there are mountains and rivers. Then there are no mountains, no rivers. Then there are mountains and rivers.” The first of these three stages represents the average sentient being who treats the manifest world as solid, real, something to be reacted to from an equally solid, real, but narrow and alienated position of “me and my.” The second stage refers to the utter dropping or relaxing of all sense of self or world. Mystics with an aptitude for it can in this stage easily merge in formless trance states (nirvikalpa samâdhi, etc.), thereby literally blanking out any perceptible inner or outer world of phenomena. The third stage in this Zen model refers to the “intrinsic/natural oneness” of sahaja samâdhi wherein the sage lovingly honors and responsibly interacts with a world of beings, promoting their wellbeing and awakening from the selfish dream of “me.” Such action spontaneously flows, however, from a nondual intuition of nonseparation from the world and no distorting presumption of an alienated, addictive, or aversive “me”-self.

 

In its presentation of spiritual teaching, neo-advaita stumbles badly here, falling into the “dark cavern” of second-stage “no mountains, no rivers.” Indeed, it is actually an even stranger state of nihilism that neo-advaita falls into—i.e., denying the relative reality and meaningfulness of “persons”; denying any Divine purpose or plan to life; denying the validity of any and all phenomena, including moral distinctions between help and harm, virtuous morality and selfish sinfulness, ego-free behavior and egocentric behavior. In this way, neo-advaita nihilistically stays stuck in a strange “no man’s zone” which at best can only be considered an intermediate, deconstructive level of spiritual development. The only “purpose” for the “No-thingness” teachings of this intermediate level (as originally presented by the true advaita sages) is to clear out all false egoic-identifications with the bodymind and relax all worldly or otherworldly attachments-aversions. Once free and liberated from these identifications and attachments-aversions, it makes no enlightened sense to fixedly dwell in the vacuous limbo of “mere nothingness,” amorality and impersonality, like so many neo-advaitins do. (Many neo-advaitins appear like a team of "demolition wrecking crew" men who delight in exploding and collapsing all the old beautiful buildings in a neighborhood, and then triumphantly standing atop the pile of rubble.)

http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/neo-advaita.html

[3bob]

purity of mind is pure light (before going through the prisms of further manifestation and into the weavings of the "ten thousand" so to speak...

 

but pure light/energy is still a "thing", yes such is the most subtle and cosmic pure ocean of a thing where two in oneness is known, yet even that thing can not go beyond itself to the Mystery of no-thing,

 

There is the greatest and truest dharmic desire underneath all others (including that of purity of mind)  for no-thing to at last return to no-thing which it never really left, and where it can finally and completely rest in uncompromised and boundless activity.

Edited September 22, 2015 by 3bob

[Jeff]

Percieved extinction is itself just another layer, as the Zen koan of the mountain above points out. Form = Emptiness and also Emptiness = Form. From the Avatamsaka Sutra...

 

 

Great bodhisattvas have no attachment to Buddha and do not develop attachments; they have no attachment to the teachings and do not develop attachments; they have no attachment to lands and do not develop attachments; they have no attachments to sentient beings and do not develop attachments. They do not see that there are sentient beings, yet they carry on educational activity, civilizing and teaching ways of liberation; they do not give up the practices of bodhisattvas with great compassion and great commitment. Seeing buddhas and hearing their teachings, they act accordingly; trusting the buddhas they plant roots of goodness, ceaselessly honoring and serving them.

 

They are able to shake infinite worlds in the ten directions by spiritual powers; their minds are broad, being equal to the cosmos. They know various explanations of truth, they know how many sentient beings there are, they know the differences among sentient beings, they know the birth of suffering, they know the extinction of suffering; while knowing all acts are like reflected images, they carry out the deeds of bodhisattvas. They sever the root of all subjection to birth.

 

They carry out practices of bodhisattvas for the sole purpose of saving sentient beings and yet do not practice anything. Conforming to the essential nature of all buddhas, they develop a mind like an immense mountain. They know all falsehood and delusion, and enter the door of omniscience. Their knowledge and wisdom are broad and vast and unshakable, due to the attainment of true enlightenment. This is the insight of practical knowledge of equally saving all sentient beings in the ocean of birth and death.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Jeff

[allinone]

wikipedia:

 

In Buddhism, humans have a very special status: only a human can attain enlightenment as a fully enlightened Buddha. Enlightenment as an arhat can be attained from the realms of the Śuddhāvāsa deities. A bodhisattva can appear in many different types of lives, for instance as an animal or as a deva. Buddhas, however, are always human.

 

The Śuddhāvāsa (Pāli: Suddhāvāsa; Tib: gnas gtsang ma) worlds, or "Pure Abodes", are distinct from the other worlds of the Rūpadhātu in that they do not house beings who have been born there through ordinary merit or meditative attainments, but only those Anāgāmins ("Non-returners") who are already on the path to Arhat-hood and who will attain enlightenment directly from the Śuddhāvāsa worlds without being reborn in a lower plane. Every Śuddhāvāsa deva is therefore a protector of Buddhism. (Brahma Sahampati, who appealed to the newly enlightened Buddha to teach, was an Anagami from a previous Buddha^[11]). Because a Śuddhāvāsa deva will never be reborn outside the Śuddhāvāsa worlds, no Bodhisattva is ever born in these worlds, as a Bodhisattva must ultimately be reborn as a human being.

 

Since these devas rise from lower planes only due to the teaching of a Buddha, they can remain empty for very long periods if no Buddha arises. However, unlike the lower worlds, the Śuddhāvāsa worlds are never destroyed by natural catastrophe. The Śuddhāvāsa devas predict the coming of a Buddha and, taking the guise of Brahmins, reveal to human beings the signs by which a Buddha can be recognized. They also ensure that a Bodhisattva in his last life will see the four signs that will lead to his renunciation.

[Orion]

Have you got any proof at all to substantiate all that ? I quite agree that meditation is simply thinking. That people can be engaged in more or less thoughts, with very different thoughts depending on their current concerns. Also 'practical' understanding seems similar to useful thinking, common sense with a practical value. Is that what you mean ?

 

I'd like to correct some things I said in that post. I was in a hurry when I wrote it.

 

I can't claim that kundalini awakening isn't awakening. It's just not how it happened for me. I had kundalini my whole life and it brought many different states of awareness, but it took losing everything, including self-concept, in the preparation for bodily death, that made me realize true nature.

 

What I meant by practical understanding is that without root, it's difficult to embody the values and discern true from fiction. A person with an open third eye is still going to have trouble discerning if they're ungrounded, because they'll be stuck in the abstract realm of the upper chakras. It's my strong opinion (based on my own experience), that we need this physical body for realization. People with developed upper chakras but weak lower chakras tend to be caught in the myth that awakening means transcendence, so they're always trying to go "up" somewhere. Yes there are other realms beyond the physical and beyond the human, but if you're still stuck in identity/ego consciousness then you'll just be adding more layers to it wherever you think you're going. It also tends to get caught up in feeling bliss, i.e. bliss = awakening, because kundalini can feel so good.

 

Awakeness is right here. It doesn't get any better than this present moment. You don't need to know what chakras are to be awakened, but maybe chakras will be part of your awakening somehow. I don't know. Suffering is a well worn spiritual path and that's how it unfolded for me, but I've met a few other awake people for whom it didn't happen this way. I dunno... it's spontaneous. I make no claims about how it all works, as I'm not responsible for my own awakening.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Orion

[Nikolai1]

Hi Orion,

 

I still eat, breathe, shit, fart, laugh, cry, get angry, etc. As the witness, it's clear that you're not responsible for the arising and dissolving of these things. And it never ends. All these things just arise from the One which I don't care to try and understand or claim victory over because this moment is all that's happening and there are no other requirements. Awakeness doesn't mean the end of form, it means the end of self in form.

I agree with all this, but I'd like to add a few things:

 

1) Once the witness state is seen as 'somewhere to go', the emotions do continue to arise (as they always have) but our engagement with them is much more detached.  Things don't escalate because the witness state removes energy from them. We might notice our anger at another driver, but it is noticed instantly and with a kind of irony.  This removes the energy from the anger and we do not find ourselves slamming our horn and shouting expletives.  This just stops happening and our lives becoes smoother, mellower and less angry.

 

So, this idea that life goes on as normal is slightly misleading.  Shit does stilll happen, but in a very much milder form.

 

2) I've noticed that there are lots of people who are very fond of this 'we still feel anger after awakening theory'.  These are people who are stil getting riled about a whole range of stuff, still quite neurotic, still very concerned about how they appear to others etc.  They may have had one or two genuine non-dual experiences, but rather than carry on practising to deepen on, they prefer to think that their anger is all very healthy and awakened and pure and spontaneous.

 

3) The other side of the coin is those who think that they must demonstrate their aakening by always being very peaceful and mellow.  They suppress their anger because they think that's how it should be.  And because suppression works for a while they claim success in their awakening...and every now and then they explode.

 

So yes, I get what you're saying but I'm also sure that others will totally misread you.

[manitou]

I think that was an excellent post, Nikolai.

 

Sometimes awakenings happen in dark paths.  Alcoholism or drug addiction, for example.   In my case, alcoholism brought me to my knees and I had to do something about it.  Part of recovery from a horrible addiction is to go within and do a personal inventory of all resentments; then examining those resentments and finding my part in the activity that caused the resentment; then going to the person and offering an apology for my part of the disagreement.  It's always two-sided.  But this process, once started, never ends.  A recovering person must check their motives for things constantly.  and because going within has straightened out my behavior and thought process, life has changed incredibly.

 

For some of us, this does lead to Awakening - and usually the recovering person - at the same time - will discover the Buddhist path, or the Theosophical path - or any path that is abstract and emphasizes the inner purge.  So the stage is set for the lucky alcoholic to not only reap the benefits of intentionally changing his thought patterns, but the ladder of Awareness becomes visible as the alcoholic spends the rest of her life going toward the flame - understanding 'the higher power of our own understanding' - which of course can't be understood verbally because it is ineffable - but the higher study and the deeper purging combined creates the Awakening, the Synthesis, of the two dynamics.

 

No longer are there huge problems.  There are no problems.  We are always okay in the here and now.  I can't believe how gentle and flowing life is now, compared to the cluster-f***k it was before.

[Marblehead]

I can't believe how gentle and flowing life is now, compared to the cluster-f***k it was before.

Yeah, but before you were trying to prove things to others and now you are trying to prove things to only your self.  Big difference.

[manitou]

Yeah, but before you were trying to prove things to others and now you are trying to prove things to only your self.  Big difference.

 

 

I'll take it one step further.  I'm losing the need to prove anything to myself either.

[steve]

 

From what I can understand, awakening apparently involves a realisation of reality, it’s about being in the present, with the mind at bay, no thoughts, which leads to this realisation, and it is available to anyone who is able to completely still their mind. In this state, what is not real appears to fall away over time, leaving only the present, and silence. Apparently risen Kundalini is not necessary to be in an awakened state. Please feel free to correct this definition.

 

But are those who claim to be awakened claiming to be enlightened, and what is enlightenment?

 

First and foremost it seems to me that in enlightenment there must be light, perhaps even an explosion of light within. This light is presumably associated with unity with God/the Cosmos, and direct knowledge from this source. And it is considered to be a long and arduous path to enlightenment, and certain conditions must be met, for example going beyond identity and ego. Is risen kundalini necessary to achieve an enlightened state? Again, this definition may need to be corrected.

 

It does seem that we in the West are more exposed to stories of ‘awakening’ than enlightenment – is it just different terminology, or is there a deeper difference? If there is a difference, does awakening lead to enlightenment?

 

Hi Bindi,

Sorry to come so late to this thread and I haven't read much of it so I apologize if I'm repeating or contradicting others. 

I think that people and traditions define and apply words and concepts based on their conditions and education. 

We can pretty much call awakening and enlightenment anything we like within a certain boundary.

 

Also, it's important to recognize that while both words refer to a personal connection with a "state" that is unconditioned and non-conceptual, the words themselves and any associated activity are certainly conditioned and conceptual. When we speak of awakening and enlightenment we are not speaking of those states but our conditioned and conceptual ideas about them. 

 

That said, I'll offer working definitions that would apply if I were to discuss either concept. 

I would use the word awakening to describe an initial, personal connection with our natural state.

I would use the word enlightenment to describe the complete and perfect integration of the natural state into all aspects of life. 

By my definitions, many people have experiences of awakening and few, if any, attain enlightenment in life.

 

Of course, this begs the question, what do I mean by the natural state? There are so many ways to label and point to this and each tradition and individual has their own unique, preferred approach. While they are certainly not equivalent from our relative perspectives, they seem to be inspired by a common thread which has something to do with the wish or aptitude to go beyond the limits of human mentation and experience. 

 

I've met quite a few folks who have experienced awakening and the common thread among those I think are credible (eg - fit with my personal and biased idea of what that is) includes experiences of some of the following: profound and spontaneous joy, unconditional love for all things, loss of subject/object discrimination, feelings of profound connection to nature including other people, lessening of attachment to material things, revulsion to causing harm to living things, an experience that seems to transcend limits of time, space, birth, death, and personal identity, and so forth. Other, less extreme, characteristics of awakening include recognizing ignorance in things we once found important, finding ourselves progressively more open to things as they are rather than as we would like them to be, contentment and ease in our lives, a natural tendency towards kindness, and so forth. With the initial onset of awakening, these experiences can be extremely powerful and life-altering. With time the intensity tends to fade and the previous way of being tends to creep back in unless we are fortunate to find a way to stabilize and integrate the experience into our lives. 

 

For us to awaken, we must first be asleep. That state seems to be characterized by an identification with the contents of and experience of our mind and sensory experience. Transcending that identification seems to be at the core of waking up. Integrating that transcendence in a full, permanent, and perfect manner is what I would refer to as enlightenment. One of the practices I'm currently focusing on is dream yoga. The beauty of this practice is that it uses the waking/dreaming dichotomy as a template for working with deeper processes such as ignorance/awakening and life/death. The parallels are quite useful. Once we are awake, it is very easy to doze back off but I don't think we ever fall back to sleep completely. It shows us a way of seeing the world and a way of living that is more consistent with our fundamental nature. I think that this is where both the Daoist and Buddhist masters are trying to guide us (as well as the masters of all other spiritual traditions). 

 

Sorry for the long post and I hope it's somehow helpful.

[seekingbuddha]

Orion,  thank you for your posts.  It would be useful if you could describe the events and practices that led upto your awakening.  Others might find useful information/motivation in your descriptions, since this is something people must strive for and experience, to see what it is.  Your description also brings to my mind another topic that is relevant in this thread.

 

From what i have seen in many descriptions used by westerners (including what one finds in this thread),  one has to take into account another word that is used in Buddhist literature.   So we would have 3 words  for people  to consider:  Awakening,  Liberation (there are stages of it) and finally  Enlightenment (or Arhantship or reaching Nibbana).  Lot of people are  awakened (according to the words used in western society),  but not yet Liberated (from various taints).  I still remember the postings of a man (by screen name Dawg), who went to Thailand and stayed in a monastery  and declared here that he is Enlightened.  I had to correct him (out of compassion) and show him that he still has ways to go.  This misunderstanding would happen if you wind up with the wrong teacher (there are ton of them even in the Eastern countries). Never heard from Dawg again, but i do hope that he has gone into retreat for further progress.  I quote this example to show how prevalent misunderstanding is on the internet. 

 

It is good to seek understanding of these words, but what i find more useful is an understanding of the PATH (steps & practices)  that lead upto  these states.  These understandings/answers  arise first intellectually (hence the reason for these discussions) and then through an experience in body/mind.   

[Bindi]

Orion,  thank you for your posts.  It would be useful if you could describe the events and practices that led upto your awakening.  Others might find useful information/motivation in your descriptions, since this is something people must strive for and experience, to see what it is.  Your description also brings to my mind another topic that is relevant in this thread.

 

From what i have seen in many descriptions used by westerners (including what one finds in this thread),  one has to take into account another word that is used in Buddhist literature.   So we would have 3 words  for people  to consider:  Awakening,  Liberation (there are stages of it) and finally  Enlightenment (or Arhantship or reaching Nibbana).  Lot of people are  awakened (according to the words used in western society),  but not yet Liberated (from various taints).  I still remember the postings of a man (by screen name Dawg), who went to Thailand and stayed in a monastery  and declared here that he is Enlightened.  I had to correct him (out of compassion) and show him that he still has ways to go.  This misunderstanding would happen if you wind up with the wrong teacher (there are ton of them even in the Eastern countries). Never heard from Dawg again, but i do hope that he has gone into retreat for further progress.  I quote this example to show how prevalent misunderstanding is on the internet. 

 

It is good to seek understanding of these words, but what i find more useful is an understanding of the PATH (steps & practices)  that lead upto  these states.  These understandings/answers  arise first intellectually (hence the reason for these discussions) and then through an experience in body/mind.   

 

I like your contribution here, more clarity regarding these states and various stages could only improve understanding. Please feel free to expand on this.

 

I agree that the PATH is the real point

[manitou]

I've met quite a few folks who have experienced awakening and the common thread among those I think are credible (eg - fit with my personal and biased idea of what that is) includes experiences of some of the following: profound and spontaneous joy, unconditional love for all things, loss of subject/object discrimination, feelings of profound connection to nature including other people, lessening of attachment to material things, revulsion to causing harm to living things, an experience that seems to transcend limits of time, space, birth, death, and personal identity, and so forth. Other, less extreme, characteristics of awakening include recognizing ignorance in things we once found important, finding ourselves progressively more open to things as they are rather than as we would like them to be, contentment and ease in our lives, a natural tendency towards kindness, and so forth. With the initial onset of awakening, these experiences can be extremely powerful and life-altering. With time the intensity tends to fade and the previous way of being tends to creep back in unless we are fortunate to find a way to stabilize and integrate the experience into our lives. 

 

Steve, what an incredible post.  And the above paragraph is just about the most succinct list of characteristics I've ever seen all in one place, lol.  I think your differentiation of Awakening v. Enlightenment is perfect.

 

I don't know about the kundalini being necessary for Enlightenment either, Bindi - but I do think kundalini energy being risen is necessary for the third eye - I think it creates a point of triangulation.  (Duh!, lol)  I can only speak to this from my own experience; I did not have the ability to triangulate character points in another until the kundalini rose.

 

Triangulating character points in another, being able to truly see the other person in all their depth - this is a result of knowing the full depth of yourself.  This, to me, is Seeing, a capability discussed much in different traditions.  What some of the traditions don't emphasize is this aspect of the equation.  I was brought up in the Christian church, and I don't once recall emphasis on the changing of the inner person to find the Divine within.  Buddhism has it, Yogi philosophy has it - but Christianity, in my experience only, doesn't seem to emphasize it.  Rather, they don't feel the need, apparently because Jesus has 'done it all for them', and reliance on him only is such a simple thing to do.  I think this is why enlightenment is in short supply within Christianity, at least as I see it.

 

(An exception?  I'll bet Pope Francis has transcended his box, but still has to function within it.  I really like this man - he truly walks his talk.  Now, I'm sure someone will post scads of Nazi stuff relating to the Catholic church.  Please don't.  I'm looking at the man as he is today, not someone stuck within the confines of Catholic history.)

 

So if a path takes you through yourself, the Real Deal will be found.  If it doesn't, you will know about Enlightenment, but you won't know Enlightenment.

 

That's my take, at least.

[steve]

Thanks for your kind words manitou...

 

 

...I was brought up in the Christian church, and I don't once recall emphasis on the changing of the inner person to find the Divine within.  Buddhism has it, Yogi philosophy has it - but Christianity, in my experience only, doesn't seem to emphasize it.  Rather, they don't feel the need, apparently because Jesus has 'done it all for them', and reliance on him only is such a simple thing to do.  I think this is why enlightenment is in short supply within Christianity, at least as I see it.

 

(An exception?  I'll bet Pope Francis has transcended his box, but still has to function within it.  I really like this man - he truly walks his talk.  Now, I'm sure someone will post scads of Nazi stuff relating to the Catholic church.  Please don't.  I'm looking at the man as he is today, not someone stuck within the confines of Catholic history.)

 

I'll offer another exception: Father Anthony Demello, an enlightened (?awakened) Jesuit from a Hindu family in India who was trained as a psychologist and primarily worked with the clergy in India. In his later years he became a teacher of the most profound of truths that I suspect he drew from his Indian background as well as his Jesuit training. The Jesuits do quite a bit of internal spiritual work as you probably know. If you don't already know Demello's work, you owe it to yourself to check him out (http://www.demellospirituality.com/). I'd start with A Way to Love (book) or Awakening to Life (CD set). If you're interested - send me a PM and I may be able to hook you up.

 

One way to know just how insightful Demello was is the fact that all of his writings were banned as heresy by Joseph Ratzinger while he was the official censor for the church (new name for the office of high inquisitor) prior to becoming pope:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19980624_demello_en.html

http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/indian_jesuits_offer_insight_into_vaticans_censure_of_de_mello/

[dawei]

Re-opened with split posts in Off-topic.

[Kubba]

Hi Orion,

 

I agree with all this, but I'd like to add a few things:

 

1) Once the witness state is seen as 'somewhere to go', the emotions do continue to arise (as they always have) but our engagement with them is much more detached.  Things don't escalate because the witness state removes energy from them. We might notice our anger at another driver, but it is noticed instantly and with a kind of irony.  This removes the energy from the anger and we do not find ourselves slamming our horn and shouting expletives.  This just stops happening and our lives becoes smoother, mellower and less angry.

 

So, this idea that life goes on as normal is slightly misleading.  Shit does stilll happen, but in a very much milder form.

 

2) I've noticed that there are lots of people who are very fond of this 'we still feel anger after awakening theory'.  These are people who are stil getting riled about a whole range of stuff, still quite neurotic, still very concerned about how they appear to others etc.  They may have had one or two genuine non-dual experiences, but rather than carry on practising to deepen on, they prefer to think that their anger is all very healthy and awakened and pure and spontaneous.

 

3) The other side of the coin is those who think that they must demonstrate their aakening by always being very peaceful and mellow.  They suppress their anger because they think that's how it should be.  And because suppression works for a while they claim success in their awakening...and every now and then they explode.

 

So yes, I get what you're saying but I'm also sure that others will totally misread you.

 

Nisargadatta Maharaj was often pissed off by his students. "You don't know Brahman - get the fuck out of here" was not unussuall to hear from him. And he wasn't in the witness state of consciousness, but in the unity.