scientific section

[steve]

Yes, but that should be based on an explanation of how beings and things relate to one another. Unless you are only talking about conventional moralistic conditioning here, this doesn't require a lot of reasoning. I don’t like to talk of religion, I prefer "metaphysics". Good metaphysics in fact treat the construction of the world, be it in the Daoist Yijing or the Jewish Kabbalah. They are a kind of science, from my perspective.

 

And good metaphysics can also treat the construction of the mind, which is the foundation of the world as we perceive it.

I would offer that Bön and Buddhism can quite accurately be described as mind science. 

They propose a theory of mind, test that theory through direct observation, and adapt the theory as dictated by observation.

As the Dalai Lama says, “If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”

[soaring crane]

As the Dalai Lama says, “If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39696-so-you-think-youre-human/

[MooNiNite]

"We must assume that beyond all matter is the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." 

-Max Planck

 

 

"Anyone who becomes seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that there is a spirit manifest in the laws of the universe, a spirit vastly superior to that of man."

-Albert Einstein 

[MooNiNite]

Many famous scientists talk about a consciousness behind the existence of matter, even Stephen Hawking. 

[soaring crane]

Many famous scientists talk about a consciousness behind the existence of matter, even Stephen Hawking. 

 

yes, many famous spiritualists, too. But I've not yet read where one identified the source of that consciousness as the organic information flowing through the microbial sea that permeates all life on the planet, is, in fact, 90% of all life on the planet.

[Miffymog]

'aaarrrr' (sound of me realising something, not stubbing my toe) 

 

yes, many famous spiritualists, too. But I've not yet read where one identified the source of that consciousness as the organic information flowing through the microbial sea that permeates all life on the planet, is, in fact, 90% of all life on the planet.

 

I was wondering what you meant by some of your comments in the 'So you think you're human' thread. Here is my answer!

[soaring crane]

'aaarrrr' (sound of me realising something, not stubbing my toe) 

 

 

I was wondering what you meant by some of your comments in the 'So you think you're human' thread. Here is my answer!

 

haha, my fault entirely. I'm struggling to formulate my thoughts cohesively on this. Possibly because it's at the same time too complex and too simple to express.

[Marblehead]

Many famous scientists talk about a consciousness behind the existence of matter, even Stephen Hawking. 

And some people are misguided by the teachings during their youth.  Brain-washing is such a wonderful concept.

[MooNiNite]

And some people are misguided by the teachings during their youth.  Brain-washing is such a wonderful concept.

 

How is brainwashing a wonderful concept?

[Marblehead]

How is brainwashing a wonderful concept?

Hehehe.  I really didn't mean "wonderful" with a positive connotation.  "Wonderful" in that by this means we can cause others to believe what we want them to believe because we have placed it in their unconscious mind.

[MooNiNite]

And some people are misguided by the teachings during their youth.  Brain-washing is such a wonderful concept.

 

Are you saying that these scientists didn't say this?

 

"We must assume that beyond all matter is the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." 

-Max Planck

 

 

"Anyone who becomes seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that there is a spirit manifest in the laws of the universe, a spirit vastly superior to that of man."

-Albert Einstein 

[Marblehead]

Are you saying that these scientists didn't say this?

Nope.  I am not saying they didn't say such things.

 

What I am suggesting is that their early childhood religious teachings unconsciously come to the fore on occasion.  Those teachings are embedded in their unconscious mind and are ever present.  On occasion they come to the fore and influence how people say things.

 

There is no practical or logical support for what they said.  Therefore I suggested that they were brainwashed in their youth.

[MooNiNite]

Nope.  I am not saying they didn't say such things.

 

What I am suggesting is that their early childhood religious teachings unconsciously come to the fore on occasion.  Those teachings are embedded in their unconscious mind and are ever present.  On occasion they come to the fore and influence how people say things.

 

There is no practical or logical support for what they said.  Therefore I suggested that they were brainwashed in their youth.

 

I really can't tell if your kidding. They came to their conclusions through years of scientific study, not the teachings of others. 

[Marblehead]

I really can't tell if your kidding. They came to their conclusions through years of scientific study, not the teachings of others. 

Oh, I am serious.  But you and I have different understandings on this topic so I think we should just let it go.

[MooNiNite]

Oh, I am serious.  But you and I have different understandings on this topic so I think we should just let it go.

Alright, i can see where you're coming from. 

Edited November 8, 2015 by MooNiNite

[ralis]

I really can't tell if your kidding. They came to their conclusions through years of scientific study, not the teachings of others. 

 

Can you offer proof?

[thelerner]

Are you saying that these scientists didn't say this?

"Anyone who becomes seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that there is a spirit manifest in the laws of the universe, a spirit vastly superior to that of man."

-Albert Einstein 

For what its worth..

 

The quote was written in German, so English doesn't capture the full nuances.  Nor does the shortened version, since the quote is actually balancing his more common view, ie it comes after the phrase  'On the other hand'.   Imo, Einstein's thought is best reflected by reading the full section of the letter.  (from http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/12/16/spirit-manifest/)- The full quote is as follows:

 

“Scientific research is based on the assumption that all events, including the actions of mankind, are determined by the laws of nature. Therefore, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, that is, by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being. However, we have to admit that our actual knowledge of these laws is only an incomplete piece of work (unvollkommenes Stückwerk), so that ultimately the belief in the existence of fundamental all-embracing laws also rests on a sort of faith.

 

All the same, this faith has been largely justified by the success of science. On the other hand, however, every one who is seriously engaged in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that of men, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. The pursuit of science leads therefore to a religious feeling of a special kind, which differs essentially from the religiosity of more naive people. With friendly greetings, your Albert Einstein.”   -translation from Jesse M.

Edited November 8, 2015 by thelerner

[Marblehead]

To Thelerner:  This is exactly where I have my problem with such discussions.  People tend to use the concept of religion when in reality they should be using the concept of spirituality.

[AussieTrees]

Science

 

Is the earth just another proton within a molecule?

 

Are there worlds within a molecule?

 

Micro fauna live within the soil,is this a universe of itself?

[Marblehead]

So many question!  So few answers!

 

I think the concept of universes within universes should be taken figuratively, not literally.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Marblehead

[Miffymog]

Is the earth just another proton within a molecule?

No.

 

 

Are there worlds within a molecule?

No.

 

 

Micro fauna live within the soil, is this a universe of itself?

No.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2015 by Miffymog

[soaring crane]

"Ehrliche Naturwissenschaftler scheuen sich nicht zuzugeben, dass ihr Forschungen nur unvollkommenes Stückwerk und ihre Beweise immer nur vorläufig sind"

 

"Honest scientists are not afraid to admit that their research is always an imperfect piece of a whole, and their proofs always tentative".

 

-- Einstein

[soaring crane]

Science

 

Is the earth just another proton within a molecule?

 

Are there worlds within a molecule?

 

Micro fauna live within the soil,is this a universe of itself?

 

yes, yes, and yes :-)

[Marblehead]

I have different answers.

[soaring crane]

„Es war natürlich eine Lüge, was Sie über meine religiösen Überzeugungen gelesen haben, eine Lüge, die systematisch wiederholt wird. Ich glaube nicht an einen persönlichen Gott und ich habe dies niemals geleugnet, sondern habe es deutlich ausgesprochen. Falls es in mir etwas gibt, das man religiös nennen könnte, so ist es eine unbegrenzte Bewunderung der Struktur der Welt, so weit sie unsere Wissenschaft enthüllen kann.“

 

What you've read about my religious convictions was of course a lie, a lie that has been systematically repeated. I don't believe in a personal God and have never denied this. To the contrary: I've made my view very clear. If there's anything in me that could be called "religious", it would be my limitless admiration of the structure of the world, to the extent that our sciences can reveal it.

 

-- Einstein