Formless Tao

Hi Aaron, I agree the US would do whatever it takes to survive, but to Nuc their own people and country I believe would be highly unlikely, but not impossible

Hi Aaron and thanks for contributing. I agree with you partly. Nuclear weapons are only good for threatening total annihilation of an external country. If a civil war broke out in the USA, the US would not nuc their own country and own people, so this would render them useless internally, unless they fell into the wrong hands...

Thanks h.uriahr. Sounds very biblical, from memory the book of Revelations...

Very interesting read MPG, thanks

Its tricky because in words, soul and spirit were the old duality making up who we are, untill the church decreed that they were really the same thing. So now when some people say soul, they are referring to spirit, or to the divine spark, or to soul in an old school context.When they say spirit, they are usually referring to the divine spark not just aware cognizance... In western alchemy, the spirit is like the elements of fire and air. It wants to lift off and float away. It is cognitive and momentarily aware, but only really 'half' a person. It is the part of us that reincarnates over and over again, with no memory of who it was before... The soul on the other hand was like the elements of earth and water. It's heavy, and can get bogged down with all those feelings and memories... You see remnants of this understanding in expressions like "that music {or person} has Soul!" ~ ie Feeling. The soul is most 'visable' through the body and viscera. The state of a persons soul is generally discernible by looking at their body. For instance a lack of confidence would have specific postural indicators, with out mentioning any more subtle reading techniques... The spirit on the other hand is comfortable staying up in the head, away from the nasty or heavy soul feelings, and the division can be seen readily in many people, between their head and the rest of their body. But who can blame the spirit? It hates suffering and loves pleasure. this is {or part of} the alchemical inner work. To heal the negative emotions to make the soul more comfortable for the spirit. To teach the spirit not to wander away into fantasy and distraction {being off in ones head} away from the body and the feelings of the soul. To practice morality which protects the soul from further negative emotions, and to cultivate virtue energies which feel amazing and thus attract the spirit. Most of the transformations of soul cant be done without spirit being present. Eventually the soul and spirit want to live with each other. This is when the first marriage or fusion can occur. this also means that separation wont happen after death, as the spirit is no longer trying to escape the soul. That means one has become very embodied, and smooth. These beings feel very different to a normal person. they still have problems and obstacles but the process them in a unique way One break down I have seen is like this: First marriage/fusion: Soul and Spirit. The two known halves of 'who you actually are, here on earth, join. Second marriage/fusion: The new person merges with their divine spark/higher self/... They now merge with the deeper intelligence. Third marriage/fusion: The triad Soul/Spirit/Spark merge with the whole. Thanks for sharing your knowledge/experience Seth. I agree with Northern Avid Judo Ant that dmattwads anology of the cigarette butt is the best ive heard. It is so simple and so nearly perfect. Thanks dmattwads

If so what is the difference between the spirit and soul? If after we die and our (spirit/soul) returns into another being (samsara) will it always come back in the same gender? or is it able to switch genders on rebirth? Thanks ahead

Hi Seth Ananda and others. Is there a difference in your opinion between spirit and soul.

BTW, Tongkosong and Thunderindo, your english is extremely good. So I assume at the least you studied English in Indonesia at EF English First, but something tells me you both studied uni in the west in either Australia or the USA. Great job, if only we could learn Mandarin or Indonesia this well

Comparing the west to what I have written above we live in an extremely individualistic society and this causes alot of differences with eastern based collective peoples. It comes down to is a person doing something for the benefit of him self or for the benefit of the wider community, society or mankind. One view can be looked at as selfish and greedy whereas the other can be looked at as giving and compassionate. The Chinese are definitely not lazy at study or business ventures, they are very much like Jews in that sense and like to keep to their own values, traditions and beliefs and they put us westerners to shame in study and business as this is very important in the 2 cultures I mentioned above I remember reading a quote from somewhere but I dont remember from whom. It said 'People fear what they do not know' ie understand. So before we attack, call names and judge John Chang, the Chinese ancestor spirits, the Chinese Indonesian Mo Pai students or any of our fellow human beings we must first try to REALLY understand them. Peace to all

Another thing I noticed was Chinese Indonesians when they talked to me would not constantly hold an eye to eye gase while ws were talking and this annoyed me especially with my wife. I am used to talking with a person looking at their eyes directly the western way. You get used to it after a while but thankfully my wife has become more western and does not look away or down while talking to me but will hold her gase Respect for an elder person in the Chinese community is of great importance I noticed also in indo. Whether they were an older cousin or great grandparent. Very different to what im used to hear in th west. If we go to the east, we should remember that we are on their turf and we must play by their rules and not our western rules in their country. We wouldn't like it if Chinese came to our country and tried to tell us how to do things on our home turf. So it comes back to the Golden Rule. 'Treat others, as you would like to be treated yourself'. This is a universal theme that is shown in most if not all religions and ways of thought bothe eastern and western. 2 weeks ago I went camping on a mountain with a Chinese national friend of mine and I was picking his brain about his thoughts on what the Chinese think about the current political situation in the Koreas. His thoughts were very different to what I see on tv from the USA and Oz but I really enjoyed listening to his point of view and a lot of it if not all made quite alot of cents. Again it was based around strategy and being passive, unlike the aggressive west. TO BE CONTINUED. ..

My father in law has been used and ripped off by his own family members many times and yet he never confronts them or ever mentions anything to them. He still lets them stay at one of his many houses or has even built a house for a particular family member to stay at, plus he still financially supports them even though one of the members ripped him off. I would get so angry as I could not understand his way of doing things. I would prefer to confront the person in the western way and get the problem out in the open so that both parties know where they stand, but I have learned that this causes conflict both verbal, emotional and physical. My father in laws Chinese way of doing things was to just keep quiet, push the problem under the rug and this passive way of doing things didn't cause fights. This in turn would keep the peace, save face and keep a persons reputation untarnished. Im not saying the Chinese way is better than the western as both have good and bad and pros and cons but at the end of the day the cultures are different and have different ways of doing things and handling issues. TO BE CONTINUED...

I have been directly involved with Chinese culture for over 10 years and travel to indo nearly every year since 2005. Everytime we visit we must pay respects and say hi to the families Chinese ancestors and when we leave the country we must also say goodbye to them. This takes place at the local Chinese cemetery and grave ceremonies are also held. This is also the same for the families living relatives. Im from a strong Christian Catholic background and when I first saw them praying to their ancestors at the cemetery or to the family photos above the home door frame, burning joss sticks, paper money, candles etc I was quite overwhelmed as I was not used to this in the west. Indo is a very spiritual place and I find it quite different to what im used to in Australia, but in my opinion its not just a nice natural place that can be spiritual but also a peoples. I Find the Chinese people in Indo deeply spiritual especially from their traditions, be it Taoism, Buddhism or Confucianism. One Chinese family member has their dead relatives spirits come into her and talk to the rest of the living family through her quite often. I would at the start eat rice 3 times a day which I then changed to 2 times per day as I needed a western breakfast. This lasted for again more than 1 year. I also found that at the dinner table my wifes family spoke alot less at the dinner table than I was used to in a big European family. My father in law was extremely quiet and some days we may jsut eat in silence.

Genuine they ageed to visit my family and allow us to get married. My wife needed the blessing of her parents and grandparents first otherwise if she hae have run away with me they would have cut her from the family. This would have has a devastating effect on her as she is very close collective wise to her family. If her father didnt want us to get married he easily could have stopped it. The funny thing is once on a flight with him he said to me if I didnt want you to marry my daughter you wouldn't have. I felt this was a bit un Chinese. He is quite a powerful (money) rich, connected businessman and we had 1200 guests at our wedding. Mostly Chinese families, but also with politicians (bupati and wakil), police, army, immigration officials and others rich businessmen and their families. Having a good reputation in the society is also very important in Chinese families. TO BE CONTINUED as I have to spend time with my family

The Chinese people do things very differently to the westeners, which im still learning till today, keeping my glass half empty/full;) they live in a collective society where their may be 3 generations living in the same household but the decisions that the younger generation make are not desicions made on their own. The decisions can be made by their parents, grandparents, family elders, or the local community. If people do not understand this or have not experienced this I would suggest travelling to a collective asian county or reading 'the analects on Confucius'. Just travelling to the country also will not help to understand, you have to live, breath, experience and talk to elders in the local community. If the younger Chinese generation make a decision on their own that they dont consult with and / or the parents, grandparents, elders dont like this or they dont give their blessings this is asking for trouble and that individual may be banished from the family. I have seen this happenbefore in Chinese families in Indo. Plus my in laws told my wife that she MUST marry a Chinese person ant NOT a westener in this very day and age. They did not trust me then yet and I very much understand why. My sister in laws also said that their parents would not allow us to get married and they would not even visit my parents house in Melbourne. After many trips to indo, spendingtime withthe family and showing that I was truly genuinet a s'

h.uriahr. check out lukmans profile and on it you will find a link to his Indonesian blog. It has alot of information their

and Reskrim ( Indonesian Criminal department) but that is another story in itself. I can speak Indonesian to about only 25% and can understand some basic Hakka (chinese dialect) and mandarin. This samsung galaxy tab virtual keyboard is killing me. Ok, after some background information on me. Now to get to the point of the heading i made above...

TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE CHINESE INDONESIAN CULTURE, BELIEFS AND VALUES: I am of southern european make up, first geneartion born Australian, but I consider myself european as I hold on to some of my european culture, beliefs and values. So im an Australian born European. Please feel free to correct me if im wrong Tongkosong or thunderindo but this is very similar to the situation of Indonesian born Chinese, the Chinese keep their culture, beliefs and values even though they were born and live in Indonesia. My wife is Chinese Indonesian and my children are half Chinese who speak Indonesian only thus far with a little bit of Chinese and English. My friends are all Chinese mostly from Indonesia and as I have stated before I have lived and worked with 3 generations of Chinese in the same household for more than 1 year. I was married in Indonesia with a traditional Chinese wedding and tea ceremony and was also arrested on 2 ocassions on 2 consecutive days due to no fault of my own by Intelkam (indonesian intelligence) and resk e

I could not have explained the below any better then you, Truth Seeker. You hit the nail on the head. Great job

Hahaha, Tongkosong, your TTB name is so true on this post and forum

Thanks Bamboo. Very interesting

Ohh thats not too bad. I thought it would be in the tens of thousands of dollars

How much are we talking for current seminars approximately?

Thx for sharing all

ChiDragon I couldn't agree more with you

Post 51 the point has been missed. Post 47 talks about adaptation, ie water ie the Tao