Anderson

I am usually not for controversial statements but in this case i would say that there is no need for recognition.If i am not mistaken TUR has said once that there is no basis for non-recognition which in my opinion means that the real state always makes itself evident via clarity or the nature of this real state is none other than clarity.People in general are very distressed (as i was for a while) about not getting the meaning of recognition.I like CNNr's way of explaining it as discovery which in my opinion is subtly different from recognition. Discovery happens once we follow the instructions and after a continuous familiarization with the place of actual condition .This place of actual condition(dharmata) is arrived at in a similar way one arrives from A to B following a map.In our case if one follows the instructions of one's teacher one is led to that place even though one is not familiar at all with the goal of his journey.If one does exactly as one'e guide has instructed one definitely will arrive at the place indicated.He may not understand what presents itself in the place indicated but familiarity with it will elicit the meaning of it.Trust and RELIANCE on one's teacher instructions are of paramount importance. Shri Singha asked once his teacher Manjushrimitra: How should one practice according to the system of Dzogchen," he asked the Master. Sri Manjusrimitra answered, "Without making the least effort, just be. That in itself is the optimal method for the Yogi who has grasped the View of Absolute-Totality. This to me means that once the practitioner has understood intellectually the instructions of the teacher one follows them to the letter and when arrived at the place indicated one abandons any effort and just stays there .Staying there fulfils the scope of the view although initially one may not discern properly and entirely the implication and the full meaning of "just be". Separating cannot be done i agree but there is a continuity or something which continues , which is uninterrupted, the continuum of the base which is none other than the nature of the base which has the attributes of being empty and clear continuity which presents itself in the form of the energy of the base.The fact that there is something which continues is explained very well in "An introduction to contemplation". Bellow rinpoche explains how continuous arising is the aspect of the basis called "nature": And by way of an example, this voidness is said to be like the fundamental purity and clarity of a mirror. A master may show the disciple a mirror and explain how the mirror itself does not judge the reflections arising in it to be either beautiful or ugly: the mirror is not changed by whatever kind of reflection may arise, nor is its capacity to reflect impaired. It is then explained that the void nature of the mind is like.the nature of the mirror, pure, clear, and limpid, and that no matter what arises, the void essence of the mind can never be lost, damaged, or tarnished. Although voidness in the sense explained above is the essential underlying condition of all phenomena, phenomena-whether mental events or `real' objects experienced as something external-continue to manifest. Just as reflections, even though they are empty, keep appearing in a mirror, things continue to exist and thoughts keep arising. This continuous arising is the aspect of the Base that is called `Nature'. The Nature of the Base is to manifest, and in order to illustrate this nature it is compared to the capacity of a mirror to reflect all that is put in front of it. The master may use a physical mirror in order to show that, no matter whether what is reflected is good or bad, beautiful or ugly, the capacity to reflect inherent to the mirror functions as soon as an object is put in front of it. Then he will explain that the same happens with what is termed `nature of mind', which is discovered in nondual contemplation. Any thought or event may arise, but the nature of mind will not be conditioned by it and will not enter into judgment: it will simply reflect what arises, just as a mirror does, according to its own nature. So the Zhi, the Base, the fundamental condition of the individual and of existence, is in essence void, and yet its Nature is nevertheless to manifest. How it manifests is as Energy, and by way of example, this Energy is compared to the reflections that arise in a mirror. The master may once again show a mirror to the disciple and explain how the reflections that arise in it are the energy of the mirror's own inherent nature manifesting visibly. Although everyone speaks of mind itself being unborn and everyone embraces the idea that it is ineffable by nature no one realizes that it is unborn. Therefore, do not engage in any effort: merely understand this transmission of the all creating monarch and Abide without distraction in its meaning. Do not train the mind with corrective measure Do not fixate on objects. Do not try to concentrate. That in itself is the ultimate point, however things occur. So engage in the ultimate meaning of me , the all creating -one. K.G.

The fact this question points at only became clear to me after i became more familiar with the teachings on primordial state of CNNr.Since primordial state goes beyond the four conceptual extremes and is before anything else it fits perfectly with the ultimate meaning of the state one discovers by using questions as the one above.

The mere recognition that mind is non existent and the knowing is empty is not enough for eliciting liberation or conducive to liberation. I myself have been toying with things that way by looking at the mind for years and seeing that there is nothing there , nothing to find and recognising that the thoughts and present experience is empty.But this only meant that i've contacted the empty side of my condition and not understood the total real meaning of my existence .Just seeing the emptiness of our mind and its content is after all a concept as explained to me by CNNR and one needs to go beyond any kind of concept of identifying this or that. This realisation can only come about when the total experience is realised as the potential of our condition which is not only the inseparability of emptiness and clarity but also continuous, uninterrupted.In fact understanding this continuity reveals the true meaning(the nature) and the totality of our vision as humans . The nature of mind needs to be seen as continuity and not only the indivisibility of emptiness and clarity. I consider this aspect of continuity or continuum very important

Can Wallace give transmission of dzogchen or direct introduction ?

what a rip-off ? Really ? Is it printed in gold or what ?

Ok. But i still dont understand why you shift the emphasis from cognition to appearance. What is the reason in saying "it is realized that the sheer exertion of our cognition has always and only been the sheer exertion of appearance itself." This almost sounds like the cognition is empty and only the appearances are real .Since they arise on their own and their effort is theirs alone in arising.This way of looking at things reminds me of something i read a while back where Thusness was saying that after a while there is only manifestation appearing and appears to no one or something similar. However in the light of what follows you conclude that both the cognition and appearances are empty.

Can you explain us using your own words and from your own experience and without the help of language used in the dozogchen tantras what "self luminous" and self knowing" means ?

Yes, something like that. I think that the idea is that budhahood doesn't arise from treckchod alone. One needs to work with lhundrup also which is the speciality of thogal only.

I was probably wrong in saying that tregcho is the path because according to Malcolm: "Tregchö is not the path in Dzogchen. It is the ground for practicing the path. The path in Dzogchen is thögal. Hence, the way the basis is explained in Dzogchen reflects the actual path in Dzogchen, thus the explanation of the basis in Dzogchen is completely different than that of Mahāmudra. "

"A treasure Trove of scriptural Transmission" Can this be used as a practice manual ? How is that done? I always wanted to know what is the purpose of this work since most of the chapters up until the "decisive experience" are more about philosophical speculations on the nature of awareness and how this is in itself. What is confusing to me is that very often he would use expressions like "and you would come to an understanding that the nature phenomena is indistinguishable from the nature of awareness....." giving the impression that one goes through a process of reasoning and analysis which no teacher of mine , or any current teacher of dzogchen ever advises their students to go through or use reasonings to reach or discover rigpa So is this approach mixed with intellectual analysis ? Like in the following paragraph..:"In showing that all phenomena are thus subsumed within awareness, pure in its very essence, it can be demonstrated initially that all things, alike in suchness-their true nature-are subsumed within the context of being unborn..." or...."similarly , you should understand that there are no levels of realization on which to train or other such factors..." Up to a point this looks to me more like a process of refining the view through reasoning and analysis rather than through the simplicity of direct looking .

Actually CNNr talks about integration almost every time there is a webcast and i got the impression from what rinpoche said that integration is difficult but accessible. I think that the way asunthatneversets explains is the classical way of describing the path of dozgchen. But the way CNNr describes it is that after the DI if one is not sure whether they've discovered their nature or not they can continue on their own with that method of introduction or they can use other methods to help with the discovery. Then if one has discovered something but due to the various obscuration they are not sure whether that is rigpa or not they can use the methods of Longde to engender confidence and get rid of doubts. Once one has absolute confidence in their discovery and can identify rigpa and rest at will , even for a short time in rigpa , from there onwards one tries to extend that resting as much as possible through the practice of treckchod. Just doing that becomes the path. After that one can start practicing thogal.

The three statements also correspond to the three cycles Sem de , Longde and Mengagde.

This has nothing to do with the text i asked about "the Treasure trove os scriptural transmission " Also for a practitioner of dzogchen is not necessary to get involved with sutra and mantra. When it comes to preliminaries to help discover , get rid of doubts, stabilise and integrate rigpa , dzogchen has its own preliminaries and methods to help in those circumstances. However lots of teachers of dzogchen practice mantra to help their relative circumstances of this human condition.

Patrul Rinpoche about the seven treasuries: "You don't need to scrutinize the meaning of words with precision, as is the case with pedantic treatises that are difficult to understand. In the naturally settled state, mingle your mind with these texts and it will instantly become expansive and nakedly unobstructed. That is direct introduction. That is genuine timeless awareness. That itself is the spiritual advice of the omniscient lama. That is the main teaching as well as the real bestowal of empowerment. That practice of the heart essence is sufficient in itself. Whether or not you elucidate the definitions of the literal meaning, whether or not you understand the profound meaning of the content, whether or not you discover the innermost sanctuary of enlightened intent- read these texts in an undistracted state, cutting through doubts and expectations. Read them again and again; read by bringing them into your expenence. Mingling your mind with these texts, seal their marrow in your mind. From the state of inseparability, chant melodiously, joyful in your experience. In the blazing dynamic energy of devotion, timeless awareness born of realization will arise."

Can you provide a reference where it says that we need to use our conceptual mind in order to stabilise awareness or rather rigpa ?Unless you mean mind training like shamata..... Since conceptual dualistic mind and rigpa are mutually exclusive...

RongzomFan is in the Bardo of TAO ... Hopefully not forever

When you see it you have knowledge of it and all the efforts involving time and analysis are exhausted. While reasoning implies that one uses thoughts and thinking in order to ascertain the nature of it.

Bump

I was just about to say that i would like to see a demonstration of how the 4 principles of reasoning apply in Rongzom's view until i saw the demonstration given by Malcolm which does an excellent job. However i would still like to see how these 4 principles apply to entities , in a demonstration where the intrinsic nature, the efficacy...etc.., are shown one by one.. Unfortunately in Establishing Appearances as Divine these principles are only mentioned with the view to explain what they do and how Rongzom see their application but i couldn't find yet an concrete example of how they apply. Can you recommend something where these principles are explained in detail and how are they applied ?

That's the sole purpose of being born as a human to participate in pissing contests

So you are a sutra boy eh ?

I can't give you a reference but CNNr maintains that his mahamudra is actually an example and a result of him having had a dzogchen education

Preciouse Vase is full of quotes from Rongzom.

.....while he was a dzogchen yogi.

I think it means that Gampopa was a dzogchen practitioner