silent thunder

An observation. From my perceptual experience. I've already revealed my take on the nature of their existence. They don't, aside from within human conditioned social amd familial frameworks. Perhaps it seems a dodge as it does not offer what you're hoping for in your 'conversation'. Which I expect is a response that plays to a predetermined hoped for position. One that may be attacked, refuted, or exhaulted, supported. I can offer no more than I have without repeating further. Perhaps this... I'll try one other tak in approach to conversation before I withdraw. Where in life are we justified to pursue any action for the sake of benefit? For here surely lies the heart of good. No?

Most... most is subjective mate.

You're getting close. This entire premise lies in the realm of conceptualization and thus... subjective perceptual modeling.

Who could claim to be the Arbiter of what is good or evil? And for everyone? Who can know what each innocent saved will go on to do in their lives to judge if it were good or ill? Will they remain innocent? Who can know such things?

Neither.

I recall having several conversations here regarding two books. One about Tibetan magic and the other about high level teachings. They were both written by Alexandra David-Neel; who traveled to Tibet in 1924 (while Tibet was officially closed to outsiders). She was the first Western woman to travel to Lhasa. Not only was she allowed to stay in Tibet instead of being kicked out which was the norm; when her level of accomplishment was realized, they gave her robes and a formal name, which then gave her access to any monestary in the land and the respect that comes with the title. She befriended and eventually formally adopted a young lama as her son and together they traveled Tibet, China and Japan for the next two decades. A truly inspiring woman. Though they're probably not the books you were thinking of, I highly recommend them. Magic and Mystery in Tibet and Secret Oral Teachings in Tibetan Buddhist Sects The second book in particular, was remarkably potent for me. Tight, short, concise, the effect of reading it was like dropping a large stone in a deep pool. It left a profound and lasting resonance in awareness.

Skol!

Yikes bob. What a sad thing to read early in the morning. Back on ignore you go.

Gentle rain outside. Best Christmas gift ever. Family's asleep and I'm wrapping a couple last minute gifts, listening to this. Just the lights of the tree and a couple cats 'helping' . Treasure of treasures.

It exemplifies the dichotomy and the lack of a clear moral status. Some in society honor and worship soldiers for murder. Some abhor them. Some soldiers bask in the praise. Others loathe participating in it and just want to be home. I find his quote exemplifies the lack of objectivity in the concept of righteous murder.

This quote by Harry Patch, who at the time was the last surviving Brit to serve in ww1. On some big hoopla military oorah day, they brought him out in his wheelchair, in uniform and then thrusting a microphone in his face amid all the hubub asked him promptingly "So Harry. How do you feel about all this?" His answer is pure insight. Legalizing anything does not alter its nature. It reveals our interpretation of and relationship to it.

Here are three translations of Verse 5. J Legge Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with. May not the space between heaven and earth be compared to a bellows? ‘Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power; ‘Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more. Much speech to swift exhaustion lead we see; Your inner being guard, and keep it free. Tao Te Ching Chapter 5 J H McDonald Heaven and Earth are impartial; they treat all of creation as straw dogs. The Master doesn’t take sides; she treats everyone like a straw dog. The space between Heaven and Earth is like a bellows; it is empty, yet has not lost its power. The more it is used, the more it produces; the more you talk of it, the less you comprehend. It is better not to speak of things you do not understand. Tao Te Ching Chapter 5 Lin Yutang Nature is unkind: It treats the creation like sacrificial straw-dogs. The Sage is unkind: He treats the people like sacrificial straw-dogs. How the universe is like a bellows! Empty, yet it gives a supply that never fails; The more it is worked, the more it brings forth. By many words is wit exhausted. Rather, therefore, hold to the core.

Tao treats all as straw dogs. That one phrase, repeated throughout the Tao, gave me pause for many years. Seems to be a key in there, but then, who can trust the translations of translations over the centuries? Good and Evil seem to be a completely human created concept that boils down to good being equal to what humans like/enjoy and evil what they detest or despise and this concept is fluid, altering throughout time and from tribe to tribe to a massive degree. Doesn't seem there can be one barometer that acts as a catch all, for all regarding murder. As recently as WW2 (how many innocent civilians killed in the name of good?) People were still hunting the 'long pork' and eating it in Papua New Guinnea. Long Pork is what they called human meat. Objectively good/evil on murder? Again I don't think so, it seems to only be a human made idea that is applied on a tribe by tribe basis as Nungali alludes to... certainly doesn't apply to animals who kill to eat does it? Or is that not murder? It also does not hold for any modern society I am aware of, as we all participate in murder, indirectly or outright, every time meat is consumed. Unless we further parse down the notion human-centrically to only apply evil towards the killing of humans. And while some folks have gone vegetarian, and even vegan, my son recently reminded someone that there are loads of bacteria killed in the boiling and eating of broccoli. Not to mention that broccoli is alive. Does it not matter that it has no face, or nerves? In the end, life lives on the consumption of other life. Nothing good or bad about it, but what we ascribe. At best it seems that some clumps of humans now and throughout history have held similar notions of good and evil, (perhaps this is what binds us as allies?)... but no one blanket catch all exists objectively, for when put to it, even these similarities are quite fluid, altering over time and within the society, or else, why do prisons exist? Do we not praise the one who murders a rapist and prevents suffering? Situational seems to be the ruling trait, not objectivity. We certainly praise the soldiers who train and murder strangers. Some downright worship them and award them medals for honor in battle; while detesting and hating the soldiers/strangers who do the same from the other side of the pitch. I know what I consider to be evil and good has altered radically since I was in my 20's. One of the more challenging to assimilate aspects of my waking process has been the unintended reworking of long held seemingly rock solid conceptualizations I was raised with such as this notion of murder as these concepts are revealed to be paper thin and to not apply in myriad situations and conditions of the fluidity of life.

Potent question. In my case, the answer is an unequivocal yes. I was fortunate in that my first cognizant memory in this life was an out of body experience. It was induced by a powerful dream and resulted in my awareness hovering over my sleeping body and watching it for a time. This revealed, before I even had a concept of death, that my body was not the center of my beingness. Awareness is home. Awareness is not body dependent, but the body tunes the awareness to certain frequencies. At most, the body while awareness roamed free of it, seemed akin to a very loved coat. Special, incredibly comfortable... but just a coat in the end. As a result, there has never been any fear of losing this body, or of this body's eventual decay. This does not result in a longing for death. (that has arisen and faded on its own as my path led to the nights of darkness). But there is no worry or fret over it. The only teeth seemingly remaining in death lies in the passing of those treasured and deeply beloved. So many friends and family lost takes a toll, but even this shines with joy greater than grief. For in their passing, my joy at knowing that throughout the infinite boiling seas of this 14.7 billion year universe... I had the uncanny good fortune to have met, loved and was loved by such hearts and minds. Treasure of treasures.

I'm an avid collector of consoles and card systems and board games. Particularly the recreations of ancient games.

Well said Yueya. Some time ago I realized the state of happiness was experienced as unstable. I realized it was unsustainable and rather manic, much like anger. Gratefully, my process seems to be settling into stable contentment, instead of happiness or any sense of great accomplishment (again fleeting). Release is still the active process and after releasing, contentment seems the natural, stable and sustainable result (until the next trigger/life event/challenge). Agreed.

We are all of us gardeners, planting influence in the lives of all we encounter and touch. Each word and every act are seeds planted in the lives and awareness of all those we knowingly and unknowingly affect.

@helpfuldemon if you want to research what you exhibit ignorance of, check out mirror neurons for a start.

My Stepmom and Father built a house on Cayman Island many years ago. They had it for a couple decades before selling it. Using bits of broken hard corral that would wash up on their property after storms, she made several makeshift structures in the channels formed between these grass covered sand burms in the shallows just off shore in front of their place. Several young Octopi took up residence in them and got used to our daily snorkeling comings and goings. Occasionally we'd bring a few remnant scraps of fish to share and they'd come out and play a bit. Absolutely compelling beings. The manner in which they'd explore our hands, then arms, then faces, masks, flippers, riding along sometimes while I cruised the maze of channeled burms... then one day "ooh, what's this?" (the leg hole of my swim trunks) "Hey mate that's Dunnwannago! As in you dunnwannago there..." One of the most fascinating creatures on the planet. Island lore said the Creator, upon seeing the abilities and intelligence of Octopi, limited their lives to 2-3 years, just to give the rest of the critters on the planet a sporting chance. Looking back I wish I'd spent more time with them instead of heading out passed the break to deeper waters. If you are into Octopi at all, I recommend the documentary on Netflix My Octopus Teacher, give it a watch! I found it remarkable. Particularly in that the man sharing the story found an inroad to spiritual insight of his inner life through his relationship with one Octopus in particular. It came at a time when he was a bit lost in life, had no drive for his career, family, etc. Real challenging time. The connection he made revitalized him and brought him deep insights he'll carry the rest of his life. Good stuff all around.

Seems a shamanistic paradigm, so more taoist than buddhist to me. Or Bon, as well as Druidic/Plains American Indian.

A tree in a city, is like an occupied people... surrounded and at the mercy of her captors. Yet in her captivity, she does not despair. She reaches for the Light and dances in the Wind.

“But there must be some pleasure in condemning everything--in perceiving faults where others think they see beauties.' 'You mean there is pleasure in having no pleasure.” ― Voltaire, Candide

True love is born from understanding. Buddha “A man is not called wise because he talks and talks again; but if he is peaceful, loving and fearless then he is in truth called wise.” ― Dhammapada, The Dhammapada: The Sayings of the Buddha Nothing can harm you as much as your own thoughts unguarded. Buddha Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace. Buddha Delight in meditation and solitude. Compose yourself, be happy. You are a seeker. Buddha