Simpleton

There is a fascinating thread on a shamanistic drug forum about automatic hand and body movements and contortions that are brought about while under the effect of a deep DMT trance, where the subject feels like spirits are controlling his body to perform these particular gestures. More than one person on that forum has experienced this, what is very interesting about his post is the detail the poster goes into in describing the experience. I started this topic to see if these channelled or spirit initiated movements correspond to any known qigong, tantric, or other energy working system. If so, for me at least it would give a great deal of validity to that particular school or system and I would seek it out and learn its disciplines. Does any of this seem familiar to you all? begin copypaste I can definitely repeat the overall motions but it seemed that the two different times they were slightly altered for the different goals. It uses both hands moving in aligned/symmetrical flowing patterns, rolling at different points (from say palms facing upward to downward). The whole time the arms are also moving between me stomach up to the top of my head. I just repeated some and noticed that many time you can picture your hands forming a triangle so to say. All four fingers on each hand are straight with the pointer of each touching. The thumbs of each are also touching and almost perfectly straight except the very tips are somewhat bent down with the. This is just the basic configuration however. I will repeat one set of motions here. It begins with what's described above. My finger tips meet just below my belly button. My palms are facing inward. My thumbs are meeting just above my belly button. My hands then move upward. As they do they fold into each-other but backwards. In the upward motion as they my pointers hit an area about 1-2 inches above my belly button the backs of my 4 main fingers are are against each-other, with the tips facing my stomach directly. Both of my thumbs are facing upward and still touching. The shape in the open areas between the pointers and thumb is that of a diamond. This inward folding motion continues as the hands move up. Imagine cupping a set of breasts at this point. My palms are facing upwards with both of my thumbs facing directly away from my body but now on the outside and not touching. The other four fingers of each hand are all still touching on the back and the tips are facing upward. As my hands move up to my head, they open. Imagine putting up both of your hands, side by side with your thumbs facing outwards towards your shoulders. It's like you're blocking your vision or playing peek-a-boo with a child. While your thumbs are facing outwards, your fingers are facing upwards. Both of your palms are directly in front of you face and as seems to be the theme, your hands are side-by-side touching. Next the hands are moved forward in a twisting/rolling motion, all the time touching until the are once again forming the initially described triangle but right in front of your face, maybe 4-6 inches away at best with your palms facing outwards and fingers (while angled) upwards. From there the whole process is repeated except in reverse. Each motion is undone as your hands move downwards. Now that's just one set but they are all very similar to that. For the entity experience, there were probably 2 dozen sets of motions like these, not all exactly the same. For the prolonged experience, it was under a dozen.

If I may ask what kidney meditation did you do? Could you provide a link or describe it?

This was an amazing post full of well-explained literature supported masterful understanding. Your other posts seem cryptic at times so I thought you had developed an idiosyncratic understanding that was not teachable. Your comparison of Advaita Vedanta, Raja Yoga, and Neigong here is superb. I think if you have not already studied this figure, you'd find the Tamil saint Vallalar/Swami Ramalingam of interest, his teachings focused on the creation of a Rainbow Body and inspired Aurobindo in his work (according to one source). His book is available online, I haven't read it yet, but it I think he's a strong link between the Hindu and Chinese systems of transformational energywork and spiritbody creation. Sorry to derail the thread but that post was an outstanding work of synthesis. We can PM if you want to continue this topic, or discuss other things, your recall abilities on spiritual matters is admirable.

I've had this problem for as long as I've had active K and recently it's become crippling to where I'm only sleeping maybe 3 hours a night. When I read up on this all the book excerpts and sites say this is natural, and sleep is a waste of time. There was a forum called Kundalini Survival and Support run by Bob Boyd (i think) which had alot of people with severely damaged lives due to K running amok, but that site shut down and this is the closest place I've found so maybe you guys can help me. For the last number of years I've used either GABA agonist, benzos, or mu-agonist substances (kratom) to suppress the energy and allow restful sleep. Kratom especially can totally kill spiritual energy, as any opiate will. (I've found tryptamines on the other hand will break open chakras and normalize energies, this is controversial I know but it works). I've quit kratom because it is in esence ignoring my spirituality, but without a K-supressor I'm barely functional at work and live is a depleted dysfunctional state. I think may of you will advise me to send the energy downward instead of letting it rise, but I'm of the buddhist mindset more and am not sure if hoarding the energy would be karmically beneficial to me, it seems like treating the energy as my own possession, which would cause me anxiety like having a fat wallet full of cash. (plz take no offense cultivators, i'm not debating taoist vs buddhist energywork karmicality, just my stance). I'm also not able to live in a monastery so giving up a capitalistic life is not an option. I fantasize about running off to Burma but I have many family responsibilities. Are there any exercises I can do that will not store all the energy below but will allow sleep? Or perhaps if I take the other approach and try and go full-on increasing the flow to widen my crown opening will I easily fall out of my body? I can't go on like this, when I've tried to beat this before I've fallen back on opiates repeatedly. Please advise me on how to proceed I'm at a loss on what to do, a doctor would prescribe something like seroquel I think because it will knock anyone out but I don't want that for obvious reasons.

I'm not a frequent poster so I don't have excellent quoting skills, but I applaud your erudition and understanding of Ramana pythagoreanfulllotus. I'm sure you are more well read than I, my attention span on a field of study (be it Bwiti, Yoruba, Huachuma Mesawork, Kebatinen, endless others) is about three months of avid fascination, then I scan elsewhere. I'm high functioning autistic with an odd pairing of severe ADD which makes my obsessions switch direction within a general context. So in effect my understanding is broad but it is not deep. I'm good at pattern recognition from above, which gives me leaps of insight which furthers my research. I will closely study what you have written in those posts (thats a dense chunk of data), and will apply it to my own understanding. I cannot debate you point by point or ask question because I have to process all your leaps and get a feel for your mind, I've read the same material but you're two grades ahead of me. Yes I agree DMT is a powerful tool, I'm very familiar with it. 5-MEO-DMT is even stronger in the rocket to the crown regard, but any tryptamine in sufficient dosage (mushrooms, ayahuasca, ibogaine, dpt, others) will open those doors. They do not provide a foundation however and will take you to great heights without providing a landing pad. When I've had burning pains and severe kundalini illness they have healed me a number of times however, so they cannot be disregarded. What is your opinion on Nirvikalpa Samadhi? You say all this energy has to be sent to the lower dantien. I don't believe Ramana practiced tantra or any kind of qigong, neither did Nisargadatta, Papaji, etc. If you have the option to open all the gates and let the energy pour straight through you and abandon all these practices and preperations, why not take it? You will always be happy and in permanent bliss. I'm pretty sure if you stopped storing all that energy and just focused on bhakti and metta you would be the next Western saint. According to Ramakrishna and Vivekananda bhakti is the fastest path to the goal, if Enlightenment and not physical immortality is your goal. I thought the taoist internal alchemists wanted increased longetivity so they would have more time to achieve non-duality? I'm not well read I'm perhaps wrong in this regard.

Thanks for that thread OldGreen it has very pertinent and valuable information. I've had kidney pains for the last year or so and had attributed them to supplements/sleep-aids, but they have gotten worse the less things I take (and the less I take the more kundalini I feel) and I sleep less and less. The adrenal fatigue is spot on that they describe. I'm much impressed with the KAP material and if I'm ever in Miami I will attend a seminar. Otherwise I'll read over their site carefully to see what I can apply to my condition long distance. Thanks again, I was afraid that I'd eventually need a transplant or had kidney stones, I'm much relieved now and grateful for the insight.

Yes I'm glad you recognize that state Tolle is in, it's a great indicator of a true teacher, the only other 2 people I've found in youtube videos who express that state are Papaji and Isaac Shapiro. Both seem like they are in ecstacy at times, laugh inappropriately, and are channeling a freaking river of blissenergy out their skulls. Papaji passed on, he had a number of teachers who claim lineage but he never really announced a true successor. Mr. Shapiro was his student and authorized him to teach. He flies from Australia to Germany and occaisonally California for satsang. His teachings are wholly tied to being present in the Now and not thinking, like Tolle and Papaji. These people do not seem to be able to plan for the future anymore, the energy is everything, I think it is addicting and they constantly feel like they are rolling on MDMA (you said you haven't done drugs, but the blissed state is the same, but not dirty or stimulating). For full disclosure, psychedelics in my teens (an LSD overdose) I think prompted my root chakra activation. After many false heatattacks from heart chakra pain, and partial paralysis from K gone amok, I rebooted my whole energy system with a mushroom overdose, which blasted my heart chakra open, ripped through my skull, and permanently changed me. The kundalini never stops from its progression from tailbone to crown now and I feel like I'm finely vibrating all the time. I rarely sleep because of the supercharged feeling, and fear of my condition oscillates the width of my heart chakra. The bliss energy radiant Love now-ness want to charge out my heart and erase my ego but I'm afraid to let it, and it's a struggle to maintain enough fear to maintain a mind able to function in a Fear-based society, with units of currency as $ecurity from starvation and homelessness. If you let the bliss take over like Papaji and Tolle you have to give control of your life away, you will be dependant on your friends or relatives to keep a roof over your head as Religion and Love and God is all you can think about, talk about, and do. Love is the energy of consciousness, and fear is what your mind is made of. Every thought is a plan for the future based on discontent of the present. The big question then is that the point of it all, to get into that state? You will become like a babe in an adult world, having no fear only Love. I think Tolle, Papaji, Mr. Shapiro, and others like them have handlers to keep their body safe while they are trapped/released into the permanent Now. I'm constantly tettering on the edge and I have no one to help me, my wife needs to retire, I have child support, I barely make rent as it is. Where I'm at now is trying to see how much Love I can live in without being erased, and stopping when it imapairs my job performance. I'll probably start playing the lottery or writing a book, I don't know if I'll every be able to focus enough to get a degree now in the state I'm in. Regarding the microcosmic orbit, I haven't tried it it seemed esoteric without having a live teacher and I'd already recklessly modified my energy permanentlly by use of serotonergics. (the blissed out state isn't dopamine and water, it's serotonin) If I don't find a way to sleep properly soon I plan to go the SFQ route (sorry Dorian!) as pythagoreanFL seems to know a number of people with roaring rivers of energy who can still function. Or I may just focus entirely on metta meditation like a wise poster suggested and entirely let go. One side effect of overactive K is physical reality seems less and less real, at this point I think its just a more static, heavy version of the dreamworld. Spirits arrange tests there and here just the same, synchronicity never stops and everything measures the mettle of your heart. Papaji taught everything is a dream your mind creates, but was confused why the world didn't dissappear when he awakened. I think now the dream and waking world are a testing ground for teaching empathy through suggestion and force, and when you are cured of your egoity you are let free. I think theres a cosmic society on the Outside of Dream and Waking where everyone is enlightenened and here is where those sick with fear of Love are sent. When we are cured we will be let out, and our dream guides watch our progress. Neo-Platonicism suggests something of this, I think the Demiurge/Archons may be our therapists. The writings above are what kundalini run wild will produce. Religion constantly charges through your mind and daily financial requirements, household maintenance, and future planning go out the window. With the V-shaped field above your head I think your crown is cracking and the energy will be extremely apparent in the near future. I have the electricity feeling in my teeth as well, and regarding the complexion question, I'm in my mid thirties and look like I'm in my late teens/early 20's, but I'm a health nut and take alot of antioxidants and eat a paleo-pescetarian diet and get practically no sun. Regarding the colors, shapes, entities question your dreams will get unbelievable and their character-caliber testing nature will be very obvious, you will get lots of Astral attention. Your synchronicity will get unbelievably frequent till you doubt your sanity, and what I've noticed recently is people who are "compromised" (entirely fear driven, ego-based) will try very hard to upset your equilibrium, I call the anger tests. People like these I think are easily possessed by the sentient Fear energy, it will go to unbelievable lengths to try and stop the outpouring of Love coming through you. Also you will be pulled into other peoples synchronicty and will find yourself a suprised player in their karmic evolution. I haven't had visions, I don't hear voices, and I don't hallucinate. Also the bliss doesn't take over unless you let it, but if you don't you will feel constant heavy pressure in your chest. These are my honest experiences and revelations I have experienced, I kind of expect to get attacked here after being so honest and I don't want to have to defend every insight I've been given but if thats the will of the spirits so be it. I wish you nothing but the best CM, the road ahead of you is VERY rocky and rarely travelled, be careful what advice you listen to (including mine, I've been wrong before) unless you feel in your heart it is valid. Many people will talk about knowing all about this energy but they never seem to mention the world-rocking ego-shattering brink-of-madness effects it creates. There is a site kundalini.se which seems pretty solid, I'd recommend checking that out for more advice. Also feel free to PM me anytime for advice when the going gets rough. I don't have all the answers but I'm about 2 years ahead of you in the enfolding/outpouring stage and I know how lonely it can be.

Wait I reread your post, I missed something. Is your crown chakra open or not? If your skull is full of kundalini without having an outlet it will cause the confusion you spoke of and the inflated head feeling and blissed state, it will be hard to think and it will feel like your brain is frying (not literally),with painful sharp pressure on the fontanelle. If you broke through it will be obvious, you will feel tendrils of energy moving about above your head from the opening, which will be small at first till you start yanking the energy through it. This will widen over time as the kundalini forces itself through. This is sad but I cannot clearly remember the sensations of the exact moment because it was hard to think and there was enormous discomfort and pressure, but I think I remember an actual cracking like a chick breaking thru a shell. I recommend you keep a diary of your experiences now if you don't already because sensations are hard to remember, just like clearly remembering pain is hard, but they are important to gauge your progress and see what works and what doesn't. If your Sahasrara is not open I think if you went about microcosmic orbit meditation like pythagoreanfulllotus suggested your life could go back to a stable manageable level. Once you crack your crown the energy will seek out that opening relentlessly and you will have profound changes in your egoity and normal life will become difficult. There is bliss and emptiness but all your problems do not dissappear, and maintaining your daily routine for survival becomes complicated. (Although you could be like Eckheart Tolle and be a blissed out homeless arhat on a park bench, accidentally attract followers and generate a multimilliondollar worldwide movement. YMMV).

This is enormously helpful to me as well. I have the Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality book/translation by Charles Luk, is there enough material in this to attempt the microcosmic orbit practice successfully or should I definately buy these 2 CDs first? @CM: When my crown broke two years ago the blissed out state would come in waves, although at first it was pretty constant. I drive for a living and it was very scary, I was afraid I'd white-out while on the road and left early a few times. For me the waves were weekly, they would build to friday or saturday and I'd have to push all the energies out or be overwhelmed, and then I'd have 4 or 5 days of peace. It was actually unpleasant, like giving birth through my neck and crown for 3-4 hours every weekend. If you read my other post I haven't managed my condition appropriately, I smothered it. Don't do this and don't obstruct the flow, the energy wants out. Don't stop meditating although some references support this. Putting a boulder on a geyser only leads to trouble. Thinking about the energy also activates it, me posting is causing uncomfortable pressure. Don't obsess over it and try and focus on meat-body matter-world issues as much as possible, when you aren't actively focusing on releasing the pressure. I'm also pretty sure that initial stage mellows out, I seem to remember a few months of peace where it felt like I'd been trepenated (hole drilled in head) but the pressure was in equilibrium and I just felt coreless emptiness. Then I got paranoid about my financial future and forcefully regressed myself, even managed to close my heart chakra. I've been retracing my steps ever since. I think in the old days people would leave society and find a cave or monastery when this happened (crown breaking through). Western culture feels very toxic when your K is raging and money seems like poison. I couldn't watch television or listen to the radio then, and everything was in stark love vs. fear dualistic warfare. Unfortunately I think that may be the true state of things and I'm trying to get back there, I've numbed myelf to normalacy. Treasure your state and never forget how lucky you are, even in the hardest of times. I've been a fool and I regret it. Hey also check out Buddha At The Gaspump BATGP interviews on youtube. If you're bordering on the non-dual state there are scores of interviews of *possibly* enlightened individuals on there from all walks of life, who relate their experiences. I'm not sure how many of them continued their professional careers after their awakening. I think many were fortunate enough to already be retired when it happened, or attracted followers to support them. The interviewer covers practically every guru out there that claims non-dual attainment and some seem genuine. I'd like it if he'd interview the stars of the qigong community as well, but the advaita/zen crowd doesn't seem to be aware of these figures.

Wow thanks for the help. These were the responses I was hoping for. I appreciate the testimonials Dorian and Drew (I love your posts) you have much wisdom regarding this. I've been considering SFQ for a long time but wasn't sure if it would make my condition worse. I probably need attunement or correction first before starting, but from all I read it seems the most highly regarded long distance DVD accessible system. I considered Reiki Tummo and KAP also, but I'm not very mobile for in person hands-on attunements. Thanks again you guys, much love your way. I guess I need to send more energy out, and perhaps store some more selectively within. @hydrogen: the pills I use are herbs, and all are within the traditional medicinal pharmacopeia of ancient spiritually knowledgeable cultures. I use TCM, ayurveda, amazonian vegetalismo herblore, and whatever I have handy to manage my condition and other neurological ailments I was born with. Not everyone was born with a pure genetic slate, and I warped my energetic body with the best intentions, I was seeking god not powers. I probably should have asked for help here earlier but I'm socialphobic and am working to fix that.

I've been reading this forum for four or five years and have decided to join and contribute to the discourse. I hope I will be released from Lobby purgatory soon to discuss topics more specifcally directed to my metaphysical studies. I'm in my thirties and have been researching meditation and mysticism for about 18 years, I started as a Crowleyist, went from there into Kabbalah and Hinduism. After a few years I reached a dead end in kabbalah not being into gematria and literal Torah interpretation, though I still highly regard the works of Z'ev Ben Shimon Halevi. On the Hindu track I read Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Shankara, Ramana, and Papaji and they influenced me greatly. My studies then turned to Buddhism and there my heart found a home. My main focus is on Rinzai Zen but I find all the branches fascinating. More recent spiritual teachers I admire are Eckheart Tolle and Isaac Shapiro. Other research interests of mine are astral projection/lucid dreaming, shamanism in all its myriad forms and techniques, early pre-christian gnosticism (the Ophite subsects), Mandaeism, Zoroastrianism, the Greek mystery schools, the Yazdani faiths, Platonicism and Pythagoreanism, and current developing interests in Kebatinen, Qigong, Tantra and Andean/Amazonian energywork. Regarding energy studies, I've had kundalini issues since I was 19 from ill-advised OCDish obsessive tampering with my chakras and central channel without supervision. I've discovered a few ways to normalize this activity over the years, but it still hinders my life and has precipitated numerous emergency room visits (heart chakra pains can REALLY feel like cardiac pains, took me $5k or more to figure this out, also half your body going numb is not something Gopi Krishna talked about). Right now I'm in a moderately stable period but these issues are what drove me to stop lurking about here and interact with you experts. Well thats my overly effusive Aspergian introductory essay. Its a pleasure to finally join and I hope to contribute often.

Maybe not.. Found this on emptyflower.net: "Peacedog, have you seen him bring women to orgasm through his kongjin skills? He wrote in one of his articles how he enjoys going into a store, hiding behind some shelves and making women orgasm in public. Clyman is a certified wack job, and yes, I've met him. In a seminar I attended he slapped a young girl across the face so hard that it brought her to tears, and they were not practicing taiji applications, he just let her have it. Did he tell you that most people don't get what they want out of life because they masturbate? He charges people thousands of dollars to tell them this kind of bullshit." I'm for hearing both sides of a story, but the only defender I could find of GC was the Peacedog user, who for all I know could be Gary. If anyone has been healed by this person with kundalini syndrome here please throw a word in here. I don't want to spend $250+ and drive 7 hours based on sketchy reviews. I still appreciate the link Dorian, and I have much respect for your opinion based on what I remember of your posts here. But my time and money is limited and I've been too trusting too many years to be gullible yet again.

Thanks for the link I'll check him out. Hopefully his prices will be within my un-degree'd peasant price range. If not I have a theory that if I can astral project myself to sleep each night maybe that will help. Replenishing energies in the Astral seems to be the point of sleep anyway. If I can have 3 dreams I can make it through another day. Spirit travel would accomplish the same thing hopefully.

Thanks for your replies you are very kind. Thanks Basher I will do so.