Vitalii

Opendao, you always invent something that does not exist and I didn't say. Over the several years, opendao and his friends from wuliupai invents and disseminates lies and slander about me and Zhen Dao Pai, and now he has come to this forum with the same target. opendao, I see no sense to discuss with you. P.S. Who wants to know more about my School, welcome to website Who has any questions about my School, welcome to forum

We get Post-Heaven Qi through respiration and nutrition (food). Thus, the source of Post-Heaven Qi is virtually endless, as opposed to the Pre-Heaven energy, which is finite. Original energy is very subtle and elusive, and usual Qi is coarse and easily changeable. Yuan Qi is very hard to restore. To do it, one must at first find it in ones body and activate, and then begin the process of recovery. Restoration of the Original Energy is of an important concern in practice of Internal Alchemy in Daoist tradition. Meanwhile, Post-Heaven energy can be restored relatively easily, with a healthy diet, fresh air, exercises of Qigong, which is quite simple as compared to Daoist Alchemy. Post-Heaven QI and Pre-Heaven Qi differ from each other of in quality, information, methods of work, manifestation etc. I can not describe all the details of practice here on the forum, because there are certain nuances that should be transferred individually. Methods, which allow us to understand an exact difference, are studied on the 1st level in the School Zhen Dao. Also, before working with original Qi, you need to learn the "methods of building the foundation", and you need to have a deep understanding of Daoist theory. For example: now, many people consider if Qi raises up in the Du mai and drops down in the Ren mai, it is a Small Celestial circulation. However, this is not true. If a person uses Post-Heaven Qi, it is not a Small Celestial circulation, but only circulation of Qi in the Du mai and the Ren mai. If a person uses Pre-Heven Qi and understands alchemical processes, it is a real Small Celestial circulation. We can collect Post-Heaven QI by use of Tuna, Qigong, Dao Ying. But we can't collect Pre-Heaven Qi by use of abovesaid arts, as this requires the Inner Alchemy. From my personal experience I can say that there really is a difference, and that it is significant, and practices of original Qi can be obtained only from the Teacher, but not from books or forums.

Of course. That is why all the Traditional Schools emphasize the importance of an alive Master, who would be able to shed light on all the nuances of theory and philosophy, and how they both are conceived in a certain School.

Zhang San Feng in 道言浅近说 said: "Condense the spirit, means collecting one’s purified mind to enter into the inside. When the mind is not yet purified, don’t close the eyes, first encourage the mind to come back, be cool and indifferent, then bring the mind to the energy center, this is called condensing the spirit. When the spirit is condensed, it is like sitting on top of a tall mountain and looking at the mountains and waters, like putting up a sky lamp lighting up every darkness and obscurity, this is the meaning of condensing the spirit on emptiness." "See nothingness as the place to keep the mind, see dim silence as home for breath and spirit, again and again, purify and purify, all of a sudden spirit and breathe both forgotten, spirit and energy fused. The Yang suddenly arise like one is drunk". "first find the center of the body, Zhuzi said “Abide in the center when handling the external”, to abide in the center, one need to bring back the (spirit) light to inside, pay attention to the center, 1.3 inches below the belly button, keep the attention, this is the finding the center of the body"; "During meditation [打坐], the most important is to condense the spirit and regulate the breath, use calmness to bring back order, refrain from assisting and forgetting, none will not gain kungfu by day. Condensing the spirit and regulating the breath, only need flat mind and harmonized energy. When mind is flatten spirit is condensed, when energy is harmonized breath is regulated". "When start meditating [打坐], one need to quiet both the mind and spirit, empty and silence, in state even ghost or god does not know". ______________ translated by LI Siming

Wang Chungyang in 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said: "Anyone wishing to have tranquility, joy, and long life must remove disease by maintaining awareness of clarity and stillness." "If you constantly regard clarity and stillness as the correct [method], your alignment with the Dao will become great". "Now, when one uses this exercise, one should begin sitting cross-legged (jiafu zuo 跏趺坐) at the hour of Zi (11am–1pm) and the hour of Wu (11pm–1am). If the perfect Qi is active in the body, pass it through the Celestial Bridge to the forehead skin. Make it go to the area above the jaws. Using the intention, divide the perfect Qi in two and have it flow down to move in the center of the Great Yang Prime." "You should be clear and still. Amidst anxiety-producing situations, steal a sense of ease. Amidst this sense of ease, take hold of stillness. Also use the Method of Irrigating and Visualizing, resting your spirit and intention in the Spirit Palace of Nirvana. Practice aligned sitting (zhengzuo 正坐)." _________ Translated by Louis Komjathy.

I know this Zhang San Feng text, it is a 道言浅近说, where Zhang San Feng said about calmness and silence and that calmness and silence are the main principles of a true practice. In this thread I provided a few quotes from 道言浅近说: 凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫 "Concentrate the Shen [spirit] and regulate and harmonize the breath, regulate and harmonize the breath and concentrate the Shen is the first step to Gong Fu [mastership]." 调息须以后天呼吸，寻眞人呼吸之处。古云：后天呼吸起微风，引起眞人呼吸功。 "While regulating breathing, one should use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. In ancient times, there was a saying: “Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing.”

You provided some good quotes! I want to add some words about the importance of meditation Da zuo [打坐] and sitting in a motionless calm and silence 靜坐 [Jing zuo]. There are dully sitting meditation and true meditation. Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said about a true Da zuo [真坐] and a false Da zuo [假坐]. Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 and 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice. Wang Chungyang said about sitting in a motionless calm and silence 靜坐 [Jing zuo] and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice. Ma Danyang in 丹阳神光灿 said about Da zuo [打坐]. Qui Chuji in 磻溪集 said about Da zuo. Zhan San Feng in 张三丰祖师参禅歌 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice. Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice. Zhonglí Quan said about sitting in a motionless calm and silence [静坐] and that calm and silence are the main principles of Inner Alchemy. Zhang San Feng in 道言浅近说 said about calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice. Lao Jun in 太上清靜經 said about calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice. Lao Jun in 太上清靜經 said 如此清靜，漸入真道 - In purity and tranquility, gradually enter the True Dao. Lao Jun in 太上老君内观经 said about calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice. Sima Chengzhen in 坐忘論 said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice. Sima Chengzhen said about sitting in a motionless calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of Inner Alchemy. http://www.charlesch...g-Nicholson.pdf - These texts say about sitting in a motionless calm and silence and that meditation is the main thing in the Inner Alchemy.

Ma Danyang in 丹阳神光灿 said about Da zuo [打坐]. Qui Chuji in 磻溪集 said about Da zuo. Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 and 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said about sitting in a motionless calm and silence 靜坐 [Jing zuo] and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice. Zhang San Feng in 道言浅近说 said about calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice. Lao Jun in 太上清靜經 said about calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice. Lao Jun in 太上清靜經 said 如此清靜，漸入真道 - In purity and tranquility, gradually enter the True Dao. Lao Jun in 太上老君内观经 said about calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice. Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said about sitting in a motionless calm and silence [静坐] and that calm and silence are the main principles of Inner Alchemy. Sima Chengzhen in 坐忘論 said about sitting in a motionless calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of Inner Alchemy. http://www.charlesch...g-Nicholson.pdf - These texts say about sitting in a motionless calm and silence and that meditation is the main thing in the Inner Alchemy.

Dully sitting is not a true meditation [打坐 - Da zuo], so practitioners need to avoid it. Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said about a true Da zuo [真坐] and a false Da zuo [假坐]. Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 and 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice. Zhan San Feng in 张三丰祖师参禅歌 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice. Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice. Sima Chengzhen in 坐忘論 said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice. http://www.charlesch...g-Nicholson.pdf - These texts say about meditation and that meditation is the main thing in the Inner Alchemy.

Qigong Qigong practice is designed for the body recovery, and it works out the energy system, breathing and consciousness, which in turn prepares a person to practice a higher level. Qigong is a complex of exercises for work with the vital force, the purpose of which is to restore the normal circulation of Qi in the body, accumulate an additional amount of it and, as a result, make the human body more healthy and harmonious on all levels – physical (body) , emotional (emotions, feelings) and mental (thoughts). Neidan Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Their purpose is the spiritual development of a person that helps to understand oneself. Working with original treasures Yuan Jing, Yuan Qi and Yuan Shen, and using special practices, the person fuses together in ones body a special formation – the Elixir of Immortality (金丹 – Jindan) Methods of Inner Alchemy will help to return to the roots, to touch original (“divine”) nature and direct own knowledge to understanding and connection with the truth (with Dao). ___________________ The fundamental difference between Neidan and Qigong is that the usual methods of Qigong can work with usual kinds of energy, heal the body, balance the circulation of energy and achieve control over your feelings and emotions, whereas Inner Alchemy methods allow you to work not only with usual energy and ordinary consciousness, but with the original energy and original spirit. ___________________ A person needs to learn how to work with Post-Heaven Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with Pre-Heaven Qi. Work with Post-Heaven Qi is essential, as it prepares a practitioner for the next step, videlicet work with Pre-Heaven Qi. However, to feel and work with Pre-Heaven Qi, one needs to employ Inner Alchemy methods, and not Qigong.

Qigong Qigong practice is designed for the body recovery, and it works out the energy system, breathing and consciousness, which in turn prepares a person to practice a higher level. Qigong is a complex of exercises for work with the vital force, the purpose of which is to restore the normal circulation of Qi in the body, accumulate an additional amount of it and, as a result, make the human body more healthy and harmonious on all levels – physical (body) , emotional (emotions, feelings) and mental (thoughts). Neidan Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Their purpose is the spiritual development of a person that helps to understand oneself. Methods of Inner Alchemy will help to return to the roots, to touch original (“divine”) nature and direct own knowledge to understanding and connection with the truth (with Dao). ___________________ The fundamental difference between Neidan and Qigong is that the usual methods of Qigong can work with usual kinds of energy, heal the body, balance the circulation of energy and achieve control over your feelings and emotions, whereas Inner Alchemy methods allow you to work not only with usual energy and ordinary consciousness, but with the original energy and original spirit.

That is why all the Traditional Schools emphasize the importance of an alive Master, who would be able to shed light on all the nuances of theory and philosophy, and how they both are conceived in a certain School.

Good texts. These texts say about breathing regulation, refining heart-mind, seeking and feeling Qi, and that meditation is the main thing in the Inner Alchemy. All this completely coincides with what I said before.

Yes, he didn't say how, but he said that a practitioner needs to use Post-Heaven breathing. I also said: "a practitioner needs to know how exactly and what kind of Post-Heaven breathing to use, and not to breath anyhow". I have never said that by use of Post-Heaven Qigong you can learn how to "work and feel" Pre-Heaven Qi. A person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi. Work with Post-Heaven Qi is essential, as it prepares a practitioner for the next step, videlicet work with Pre-Heaven Qi. However, to feel and work with Pre-Heaven Qi, one needs to employ Inner Alchemy methods, and not Qigong. Neidan is a work with Pre-Heaven Qi. How you can work with Pre-Heaven Qi if you can't feel it? 小乘安乐延年法四门 is a part of Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) by Immortal Zhonglí Quan. Zhonglí Quan in 小乘安乐延年法四门 said clearly and intelligibly about: work with Pre-Heaven Qi; to cultivate elixir, nourish immortal embrione; small heaven circulation etc. All these methods are Neidan. Zhonglí Quan clearly and intelligibly said that 小乘安乐延年法四门 contains methods that let one achieve Human Immortal (人仙). Ling Bao Bi Fa is the text of Inner Alchemy, but not of Qigong. Opendao, you always invent something that does not exist and I didn't say, and when somebody asks you to explain something or give evidence for your arguments, you never give a reasonable answer. I see no sense to discuss these things with you.

Zhang San Feng clearly and intelligibly said: "use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing". The word "use" [以] doesn't mean "result". The result is true breathing. Post-Heaven breathing it is not Neidan, but Zhang San Feng said to use it. Of course, a practitioner needs to know how exactly and what kind of Post-Heaven breathing to use, and not to breath anyhow. Therefore, we can see the proof that traditional schools use Post-Heaven/Hou Tian work. So what? Still, where was it said that Qigong gives the same results as Neidan? Again, you see something that does not exist and I didn't say. - method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian; - making dantian integral and structurised; - method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi All these methods are Neidan, and they are the parts of 匹配阴阳 ["To mate Yang and Yin"], also known as 采小(丹)药 ['To collect a small elixir medicine"]. About all these methods you can read in “Complete Method of the Spiritual Jewels” (灵宝毕法, Ling Bao Bi Fa). Therefore, we can see that you are wrong. So what? Where was it said that breathing or Dao Yin is a not part ”Building the foundation”? So what? I know that the main treasures in Neidan are Tree Origins. I said: "Building the foundation” [筑基] is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan. "At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi." Dao Yin and breathing practices are not Neidan, but you can read about their importance in many Daoist texts, for example Ge Hong "Baopu-zi" (抱朴子). P.S. In addition, it should be remembered that there are many different Schools with own methodologies and philosophical basis within Daoism itself; and one should not lump everything together, presuming that it all should be the same. For example, something that is correct in the School Zhen Yi may never be used in the School Quan Zhen, and vice versa. Schools of Wang Chongyang and Zhan Boduan, albeit tracing their roots to Grandmaster Lu Dongbin, have had widely different opinions and approaches considering what practice should start with. And there are numbers of such examples. Inasmuch as people are unfamiliar with the history of different Daoist Schools, after getting acknowledged with the position of one School, they tend to believe that everything should be the same in others – practice, philosophical notions about the world, human being, interpretation of different terms etc. They fanatically start to prove to others their categorical rightness, not understanding that it confirms their own narrow-mindedness only.

Still, where was it said that Qigong gives the same results as Neidan? I repeat to you: "Building the foundation” [筑基] is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan. At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi." Therefore, at first people learn: - basic Qigong, - basic breathing techniques, - Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi, - methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi, and then: - method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian; - how to make dantian integral and structurised; - method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc. Again, you see something that does not exist and I didn't say. You only repeat: "There are none" and don't give any solid argument proving that you are right. I gave you concrete texts that prove that you are wrong. You only say: "they prove nothing, because you read them as it's good for you, but not the way they were written" "I don't see a necessity of "solid arguments" to just say that "you just don't know", and "there is a huge mistake here". If you don't want to give solid arguments and do not answer the questions, there is no sense to discuss anything with you.

Yes, you are really wrong. When did I say that 筑基 is a part of non-Neidan process? You should pay more attention to wordings. I said: ”Building the foundation” [筑基] - is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan". Here's the proof that traditional schools use Post-Heaven/Hou Tian work: 1. Zhang San Feng said: 凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit] and regulate and harmonize the breath, regulate and harmonize the breath and concentrate the Shen is the first step to Gong Fu [mastership]." 2. Zhang San Feng said: 调息须以后天呼吸，寻眞人呼吸之处。古云：后天呼吸起微风，引起眞人呼吸功。 "While regulating breathing, one should use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. In ancient times, there was a saying: “Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing.” 3. In the "24 Secrets of Elixir Methods" (丹法二十四訣) by Patriarch Lu Yiming, it was said: 第一訣 [修補丹房] 培養後天，堅強色身。培養後天第一端 "Secret number one [Repair and cultivate of elixir house] is: Nourish Post-Heaven, and, by doing so, strengthen the physical body [which is elixir house]. Nourishing the Post-Heaven is the initial point of departure [in the alchemical art]". In these texts it was clearly and intelligibly said: regulate and harmonize the breath (调息), use Post-Heaven breathing (后天呼吸) and Nourish Post-Heaven (培養後天). All these methods are Post-Heaven/Hou Tian work, but not Pre-Heaven/Xian Tian. When was it ever said that it gives the same results? Of course, only you have right experience, right understanding and a true teacher I gave you concrete texts that prove that you are wrong. You say: "There is a huge mistake here", "you don't have right experience", "you just don't know" ... But actually these words do not have any evidence, and among your statements there is no solid argument proving that you are right, so they have no sense. What will be next? Will you start to talk about the harm of meditation (打坐) and that it has nothing to do with the inner alchemy?

Zhang San Feng said: 调息须以后天呼吸，寻眞人呼吸之处。古云：后天呼吸起微风，引起眞人呼吸功。 "While regulating breathing, one should use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. In ancient times, there was a saying: “Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing.” In the "24 Secrets of Elixir Methods" (丹法二十四訣) by Patriarch Lu Yiming, it was said: 第一訣 [修補丹房] 培養後天，堅強色身。培養後天第一端 "Secret number one [Repair and cultivate of elixir house] is: Nourish Post-Heaven, and, by doing so, strengthen the physical body [which is elixir house]. Nourishing the Post-Heaven is the initial point of departure [in the alchemical art]".

Daoist retreat in Kyev from 04 until 11 January The main focus will be on the analysis of practices of Mastership of Human Immortals (小乘人仙功), especially to sitting in a motionless calm and quiet (静坐 – Jinzuo). A short description of the retreat: - Xinggong as a basis of spiritual development in Daoist tradition; - Basic Xinggong practices and detailed theory about how and why a person needs to improve the Heart of Nature. - Understanding the Minggong practices and how to use them in combination with the Xinggong practices. - Further understanding of the basic practices of Lowest Vehicle of Human Immortals (小乘人仙功). - Dao Yin [static and dynamic exercises that contribute to stretching of a body and containing deep inner work with energy and consciousness]. - Lectures on theory and practice of internal alchemy. - Reading, studying and discussing of ancient Daoist texts. Daily timetable of the retreat: 04.45 – waking up 05.00 – 0700 – Zhan Zhuang 07.00 – 08.00 – Qigong or Dao Yin 08.00 – 10.00 – breakfast and free time 10.00 – 11.00 – theory and discussion of Daoist philosophy 11:00 – 01.00 – meditation practice (Inner Alchemy) 01:00 – 03:00 – lunch and free time 03:00 – 04:00 – theory and discussion of Daoist philosophy 04:00 – 06:00 – meditation practice (Inner Alchemy) 06:00 – 07.00 – dinner and free time 07:00 – 10:00 – meditation practice (Inner Alchemy); reading, studying and discussing of ancient Daoist texts Retreat location: Ukraine, Kiev To attend the retreat, book your place before 25 December 2013. Retreat is held by Vitalii Lishchyna

I answered your questions here http://thetaobums.com/topic/32406-building-the-foundation-and-inner-alchemy/

Attention will be given to the following Minggong practices: 1. ”Building the foundation” [筑基]: - basic Qigong, - basic breathing techniques, - Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi. - methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi. 2. Inner Alchemy: - method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian; - how to make dantian integral and structurised; - method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc. P.S. I know that you are from Russia, so you can find more information on my Russian website http://zhendaopai.org/taoism/theory

good exercises, but it is not neigong.

Photos from the Nepal retreat 2013

Basic skills needed: 1. to be able to sit with legs crossed, the longer the better. 2. to be able practice Zhan Zhuan for 30 minutes or more. 3. to know abdominal breathing and the method "Five Gates Breathing". Best skills: 1. to know the "methods of building the foundation", which consider basic Qigong, basic breathing techniques, Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi. These techniques are learnt during a seminar on the 1st level in the Daoist School Zhen Dao Pai. 2. to know the method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian; how to make dantian integral and structurised; to accumulate usual [Post-Heaven] Qi, and find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc. 3. to know basic methods of cultivation of the Heart Nature (Xing) and how to cultivate Xing in Minggong practice. This is a very important aspect of a right self-improvement! I also can say, even though a person doesn't have the best skills, he/she can still catch up with methods and fundamental theory on a retreat. For example, during this retreat there was one man, who had never practiced Zhan Zhuan before, but on the second day he practiced it for two hours already. He also had no problems with obtaining other necessary skills. Of Course, if a person has the best skills, he/she can get the most of benefits from a retreat. If a person doesn't know something, retreats can help one to enhance ones skills considerably anyway, in comparison to ordinary trainings. Thus, in any case, retreats are able to boost skills and help to achieve more significant results for any person who has a wish to do it. The next retreat will be held in April in the Wudang Mountains in China.