Kajenx

Haha, well TBH, I don't know that I would have agreed with myself about it unless I'd seen it for myself. If you guys just want my subjective opinion, there is nothing I've felt in my life that comes close to being in this mind-frame. I can't say I live permanently without emotions, but I can say that they do go away totally and completely when this mind frame is stabilized. There's not even a whisper. Sometimes I'll just sit for hours doing nothing but enjoying existence. It seems like it's becoming much easier to get there, as well, so I'm extrapolating that it's possible to make it "perminant" (i.e. the natural resting state of the mind).

The hypnagogic state can be fun to play with, but I've read some studies on concentration meditation and they seem to say the mind is going the other direction. A study on Tibetan monks reported some of the highest frequency brainwaves ever recorded. EDIT: I got some links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_wave http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43006-2005Jan2.html

Concentration is probably best seen as a long term project, so it's level 1 and level 50. The best way to do it is to simply allow the mind to be as it is, and bring the awareness back to the meditation object when you notice it's no longer there. Think of concentration as "building speed", so you don't just sit down and CONCENTRATE. Instead you let the mind rest gently on the object. The mind will wander without you knowing and suddenly you'll realize "oh, I'm not on the object". What you do here is important. You want to get back to the object so you can build more speed, so don't be angry or frustrated with yourself, that just takes up time and you lose momentum (if you do get frustrated, though, don't worry about it, just go back to the object :3). Each time you notice the object, you are revving up the engines, and after 10 minutes or so it'll really start to catch. The best thing you can do is relax and allow the process to unfold. It may take a few months to get into the absorptions, but if you sit every day - even for 10 minutes - you'll get there eventually. As for the meditation object, I always recommend body awareness. It's what I use, and it works! Just place your attention on different parts of your body for each breath. For example, breathe out into your feet, breathe in from your feet, breathe out into your lower legs, breathe in from your lower legs, breathe out into your upper legs, etc. Once you cover the whole body, just breathe in and out of the whole body for a few breaths, then cycle through again. This can feel very nice and relaxing, just go with it and try to enjoy the process. Don't worry about thoughts and emotions, they clear themselves when you don't give them attention. Remember, don't use attention to battle thoughts, use attention to be aware of the meditation object. Let the thoughts babble on in the background and wear themselves out. As for standing meditation, you can do the same thing as above, but I find it more enjoyable to stand at my window and try to stay in the senses. Just watch and listen carefully. You can walk a bit as you do this too. Wander around...be aimless...

I don't think I'm in that crowd either, though I may be wrong. From what I've seen, the ego just doesn't seem to exist when you're in the senses. I've had a number of days where this "outer world" really stabilized and things that would have really bothered me in the past didn't even register. It's like dissatisfaction is turned off completely. So these days I only spend time working on the ego if it's getting in the way of stepping out of the emotions. Once I'm out, there is no ego to worry about or keep in check. Please feel free to link some things you think might relate to this! I've been trying to understand if what I've been doing lines up with anything. Is it rigpa/non-dual awareness? The tao? Kensho? Something new? I think this matches the goal. Most of these things seem to be automatically taken care of, though. To me, this points to something fundamental in the mind. It's a very clear shift between the struggle of everyday emotional life, and then a sudden ongoing clarity. Even things that seemed to have had an emotional death grip on the mind are suddenly seen as very minor or unimportant. It's hard to see this as enhancing good and minimizing bad, as least from my perspective, because it doesn't really involve any kind of willpower or decision making. If the mind is dwelling in the emotions, then it has to sort through them and suppress some and allow itself to express others, and it worries about the social and emotional impact of what it does because it might lose it's happiness or it might run into obstacles to pursue more happiness. Then, when it steps out of this world entirely, none of this even registers. The mind is simply content, and it has no inhibitions because it isn't relying on anything to support its contentment. In this mind-frame, you can smile at an angry person piling you with insults because they don't even register. It's the same as if you were having a light discussion about the weather. EDIT: I realized I repeated myself a lot here, haha. Sorry aobut that.

Haha, I'm not mad. I've talked about this with a number of people and this is the general response I've gotten, actually, so I can only assume I'm explaining myself poorly. I'll try to address the concerns you lay out here, but please feel free to point out any new ones that arise. In terms of the lovely positive emotions, perhaps the problem with my explanation is that it implies a neutral emotional tone as the end result, so it seems like a person has to sacrifice their happiness for emotional stability. But what I'm trying to point to is the complete lack of emotional overlay, not just a neutral feeling since that is still an emotional tone. For example, if an person who was dwelling in the inner world were to look at a plain gray rock through emotional eyes, they wouldn't actually see it, all they would see was their neutral feeling. A neutral feeling tone urges the mind "do something" and this results in boredom or restlessness. They might say, "why am I staring at this rock? It has no meaning or purpose in my life." This is a filtering process where the mind tries to avoid as much of the outer world as possible. It seeks constant gratification because it is desperately trying to survive. Once this gratification is met, the inner world becomes positive briefly, registering the contractions in the heart center as happiness. I can't tell you what the brain is actually doing here, I can only point to subjective experiences. When you move out of this world of emotions completely, the feeling itself transcends happiness, because it's a constant, it has no cause, and needs nothing to sustain it. It could be called the ongoing experience of perfect serenity without cause or disturbance. I saw this mind explained as "empty, spacious, and filled with a kind of sweetness" by a higher level practitioner who claims to have stabilized it. That description matches my experiences with it. In a word, it's effortlessness. The truth is (IMHO) even great joy is a kind of stress. Consider emotional phrases like "a heart bursting with love" and "overcome by joy". These emotions are a kind of contraction and exist in the same "system" as the negative emotions. They can be amazing, but imagine living in a constant state of transcendent joy? Something I've learned from practicing the jhanas is that even full bodied bliss becomes a kind of work or effort. When the mind is living in the emotional inner world, it's always looking for something to gratify it further. It's a mind ruled by systematizing, judging, and ranking experience, so only new things will ever make it happy. The complete stilling of the emotions finally brings this to rest. In the outer world of the senses, there is only contentment, nothing else. This contentment informs everything, so any ideas of morality become meaningless. The mind that is consumed by its own satisfaction automatically treats everyone with kindness. I think I can answer this from personal experience. I enjoy writing music and painting, and I've found that emotional thinking generally gets in the way of these kinds of things. The best music I've made is when I got out of the way completely and stopped judging what I was doing as I made it. The tug and pull of emotional thinking has ruined a number of my paintings as well, haha. I spend so much time "fixing" things that the final result has lost all of its original character. While I admit that I've never been a very intuitive person (so I probably can't answer this from personal experience) I think you may be pointing to something I've given some thought to. It's important to remember that emotions aren't the cause of our intuitions, they are just the delivery method. If you aren't driven by emotional thinking, these intuitions will still arise, they will probably just appear more clearly in your thought stream. Something to consider is that, when dwelling in the senses, you will pick up on details directly rather than relying on your subconscious to do it for you.

Looks like I talked about still water too. There must be something to that.

I have a few comforting thoughts I wrote down a while ago that would fit here. This thread inspired me to edit it a bit. *** My only desire is aimlessness. I want to be free from all things. I will accept everything, And judge nothing. Not because my judgments are wrong Or because I have no right to judge But because I want to be free from judging. It is the greatest burden. I will sit and watch the skin on my hands. It is only remarkable Because I forget I have already seen it. I will take refuge in colors. I will listen to the fan blowing. I will stand with my palms to the wind And smell the leaves in the air. These things are always with me, But sometimes I forget to be free. Obstacles only appear When I am trying to pass through. If I decide to go nowhere, There is nothing in my way. I have no difficulty breathing or blinking, But I am never impressed when I do them. How long is a day on the sun? I do not need to give up anything Because I have nothing to give up. My clothing, my books, my food, They all belong to the world. They are only mine because no one takes them. My house is only safe because no one disturbs it. Even my ambitions belong to the world. I am never the first to try for them. I will pursue them for no reason. I need no reason when I am free. I will not suffer from failure Because there is no failure. Every moment of freedom is success, And every moment without freedom Is the moment before success. I will never be perfect. Perfection is defined by rules, And freedom is the absence of rules. I will never succeed. Success is a judgment, And freedom is the absence of judgment. I will forget the past And master the present. I will drop any burden The moment I feel it on my back. There is always something to worry about. The past is full of regrets. If I carry these with me, I am trying to hold a tapestry together With just two hands. I will let the threads fly free in the wind. I will be reckless and live without the past. I will ask for little and expect nothing Because I am unimportant and undeserving. Knowing this, I can be free. When my importance is unimportant, I have no need for shame or pride. When I realize I deserve nothing; I am willing to wait quietly, And I am never surprised When I do not get what I want. I will be the lowest creature And welcome the unhappy people. I will be a quiet pool of water And keep it full for any who need it. Everything always works out for me. There is only one time when this will not be true, But I will be too dead to care. The trees are my greatest teachers. They are mindless, But they are alive, And they grow. They are content to wait forever, For nothing at all. They spread their seeds into the wind And forget them. They drink water and sunshine, And because these things come to them freely, They never need to move. I will never try to win Because when I am free, I have already won And being free, I can do anything.

In the end, this practice is just about removing the stream of thoughts, isn't it? All the techniques and methods I've tried and left little notes about all over my table, they pale in comparison to simply stopping the thoughts and watching the senses. Have you passed a tipping point with this? Sounds like it here. I think I can relate to this. Seems to happen more each day.

Five keys to right speech"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/ Seems perfectly Buddhist to me! :3

Omg....tiger mutant....lolol

This is a happy thread isn't it? If we look at the more recent superpowers, like France and England, we'll see that they didn't decline but the world rose up to meet them. I would say the French people have benefited from the general stabilizing of Europe. England isn't a third world country. I look at China and I see hope. There's nothing to fear from a country that wants economic prosperity. We disagree on the political methods to achieve it, but I won't celebrate if the communist ideals backfire and cause collapse. I'd much rather see the system open into what's best for the Chinese people. Hard for me to say what that is, though. I'm not Chinese. I think the future will bring us a world that is more complex than simple patterns can predict. The US isn't imperialistic, so it's not correct to compare it to Rome or even 18th century France and England. More than anything, the US is easily frightened/threatened I think. Everywhere I look, though, people are sick of war. More than likely we aren't going to step into big conflicts by ourselves anymore.

This is actually a subtle point I've run into again and again over the last few months, and each time I leave myself 100 notes trying to explain things, but I always foget eventually and start hoping again, haha. Practically speaking, hope itself is the enemy. If you are hoping, that means you believe something needs to change. I can totally understand your point of view here, though, and I know my own reaction would be, "Well, then, what's the point of doing anything? Aren't you just saying you can't escape, and whatever you feel is how it is?" The answer is so simple it's almost impossible to grab hold of - I've felt it slipping through my fingers so many times - surrender itself IS contentment. It's actionless action. Whatever you are doing RIGHT NOW is the action. To make it actionless action, all you need to do is accept it completely. Look around in your head at any feeling or thought and, once you see it, leave it exactly as it is. What causes our stresses is that we are always trying to make bad feelings go away or good feelings stay longer. No feeling is bad or good, though, they are all simply sensations. What makes something feel good is letting it do it's own thing. Even the worst anxiety can be contentment. I wouldn't type it if I hadn't seen it for myself. The word "rest" has actually taken on a new meaning for me, too, haha. It's the one note I left myself that always hits home. "What is the opposit of restlessness? REST!" Just rest within whatever state of mind presents itself. Edit: I should note that this is all my own interpretation of things, too. If I'm using the terminology wrong (probably) the content is still true in my own recent practice. I can empathize if I don't seem to be making sense, as well. It all seems so simple when you're going through your day in perfect equanimity, then you wake up the next morning and wonder if it was all just a beautiful dream.

Marblehead, you know that feeling of resistance you bump over when you hear "surrender"? That's a feeling waiting for your analysis. ^^

You might say "trying" is the problem. There is no trying, no doing, no coming to, or leaving. There is simply the world. Don't expect anything of it, don't try to make it seem magical or interesting. Don't think about how it was better before, or will be good in the future once you attain something. Don't ignore or supress. Don't favor this thought over that thought, this feeling over that feeling. If there is pain, be content with pain. If there is fear, sadness or anxiety, simply let it be without rejecting or embracing. If you saw a plain gray rock and set it on the table in front of you, how do you feel about it? Well, it's just a plain gray rock. There is nothing special or unique about it. This is the great secret. Everything is a plain gray rock. When you finally see this, there is only contentment. Contentment exists naturally under any feeling, any thought, any problem, any great joy, any sorrow. You don't need to end anything, find anything, fix anything, or solve any problems. The only problem is trying to make anything different from how it is precisely night now at the bleeding edge of this pure existance in time. There is no surrender, no relequishment, no action at all. Stop clinging to the edge of the cliff and fall into space. Allow all frayed strings and loose ends to fly free in the wind. Let the river take you over the waterfall. Be in that moment right before the bomb you are trying to diffuse explodes where you realize in an instant you are going to die, and you say, "I guess that's it." You cannot try to be effortless, you can only stop all trying. Watch the mind passively. Watch your trying. Watch the doubt, the frustration, the effort, the effort to stop expending effort. Watch as everything you feel and think exists beyond your control. Surrender is relequishment, release, letting go, stopping effort. There is nothing beyond awareness, so you can't leave it and you can't come back. Whenever you feel yourself trying, watch the trying. Don't stop trying, stop trying.

This is a practice I've recently discovered and wu wei is the only thing I could use to describe it. Please let me know what you guys think! In the true spirit of Taoism, this idea is almost impossible to describe because it's completely contradictory. I've realized I can be free from the state of my mind if I surrender to it completely and embrace that I have no control. Another way to explain it is, maybe, if I accept that the current moment is all there is, and I accept it as completely mundane and boring, it turns into a world of perfection and beauty. I look at a stack of books, and I say to myself, "They're just books, they don't have to be anything else! Why was I trying to see them differently? I'm a bit restless, but that's just fine. Why have I ever been caught by these emotions? Why is there any suffering in my life?" It's a feeling so deep and calm I can't compare it to anything I've felt before, and at the same time, nothing has changed. I don't know why it's different at all, really. If I am not thinking this way, I glorify the idea of it in my mind and wonder how I got there. Then it dawns on me that it's nothing at all except reality and my mind as it is, completely as it is with no attempt to change it, and the boredom or anxiety or restlessness I feel is actually the same feeling as the mind-state itself. Maybe, if we're being practical about it, you could say it's like I've decided that all of my feelings should actually be interpreted as a feeling of contentment. Anxiety? No, no, that tightness in the chest and slight pressure behind the eyes is tranquility and peace! Haha, it actually works that way... Is this a view of the unconditioned mind? It's very easy to read through the Tao te Ching and apply it to almost every passage - but then, you could do that with a lot of ideas, haha. I feel like I've been completely off track in all of my meditation practices, and yet, this feels like some kind of outcome - like it's somehow related. I feel that if I can solidify this...we'll call it a world view, I wouldn't have to expend any kind of effort to do anything.

Hi everyone! I've always liked this site (though I don't post very much, haha) and I thought I'd come here for some discussion about some experiences I've been having. I've been in and out of the Dharma Overground website reading posts there, and while jhana is definitely a big topic over there, I almost feel like what I've found makes more sense from a Taoist perspective (maybe because I've just been more attached to the philosophy, haha). I should preface by saying I'm not an expert/adept/whatever mediator by any means. I started meditating around the middle of last year and I never took it too seriously or expected anything much out of it, I just kind of liked that it was relaxing. I really only did about 10-15 minutes every day, and was satisfied that it was a nice practice to keep going. But then, around the new year, I sat to meditate because I was experiencing some anxiety, and almost immediately when I started, I had a blast of some kind of amazing euphoria, like waves of happiness and relief washing up and down my body. It was earth-shattering, to say the least, and I never would have believed it could be possible to feel that way. This feeling must have lasted around a minute, maybe less (I definitely wasn't paying attention to the time ^^) and then it sort of spread out into an effortless awareness, and I just sat on my couch, staring at things in my room, wondering what the hell had just happened, haha. It was later at night when I'd sat to meditate, so that state of mind lasted for the rest of the few hours I stayed up, and then I went to bed. I even did my exercise routine and was just fascinated by everything I felt. Basically it seemed like everything was perfect, always had been perfect, and always would be perfect forever in the future. So, I spent the next day googling fanatically, haha, and the best explanation I could come up with was, MAYBE the first jhana? I didn't read about anyone having after effects with jhana, but it still seemed like the best description. What I'm a bit confused about, though, is that the methods people talk about to get into jhana are very foreign to me. When I meditate, I basically just sit down and try to let go of everything. If I have a thought or a feeling, I step out of it and watch it, and then let it go, or stay, whatever - we're supposed to be natural and accepting, right? Lol. But the Buddhists all talk about focusing on the breath and trying to increase concentration by stopping their thoughts and outside distractions, and I don't feel like this could apply to what I'm doing at all - this is actually the method I used to see suggested the most on meditation websites/books, but it never felt very good to me. I feel like when I sit down I do the exact opposite of concentrate... I've never felt like my thinking stopped at any point during meditation, more like I just kind of stopped putting effort behind the thoughts and just let them drift around like smoke in my head. For a while I was doing some body scanning, but I would usually let go of that, too, after I'd calmed down a bit from the normal noise of the day. Anyway, I've been able to get this experience to happen again a number of times while I'm meditating, and it's actually become an almost routine experience to get a really nice feeling - both physical and mental. I'm more attuned to it now, so it isn't so dramatic, but once in a while it'll hit hard again. It's always when I find myself "letting go" the most that it's the most successful too, which really makes me think of wu wei. "Effortless action" is the best way to describe the feeling after meditation. It's also started to show up outside of meditation as well, though. I've had a few times while I'm programming and I realized I have a sort of background feeling of contentment, and when I close my eyes it just kind of wells up and washes over me for a while. There was a week or so after the first event when I was trying really hard to get the feeling back, and I kept trying to force it when I'd sit. Sometimes it kind of worked but felt...tainted? Like I was trying too hard or something and it didn't want to come. When I finally clued into the fact that the feeling itself WAS "letting go" it became much easier to find it. I've had some ups and downs over the past month and I've been meditating quite a lot more than I used to, but I feel like I'm really starting to understand the mind-state. For the last few days, whenever I have a negative emotion or feeling, I just ignore any reasons behind it and let it be a physical feeling without judgments. Generally it dissipates within a minute or so. I used to do this a lot before, but it seems to work so much better now. I should also say that the mind-state "under" the euphoric feelings is almost completely emotionless. When they talk about the Tao being "empty", this is what I might imagine they're talking about. I know emptiness is a big topic in Buddhism as well, so I wonder if I might be doing some kind of insight meditation? I really don't have any idea, but it seems to be working - whatever it might be, haha... Anyway, this has already turned into a novel, but I'd just like to know if anyone else has had any similar experiences, or might be able to say how this fits into some or other tradition. I looked into the progress of insight and such in Theravada Buddhism, but I haven't been able to relate to the descriptions of vibrations, or understanding reality in any new way (except that, maybe, things seem more "real" if that makes any sense?)

Oh, I think I see what you mean! I read a good article the other day that broke down the anapanasati sutta, and what I mostly got out of it was the idea that we should look for successively more subtle stresses as the top layers start to peel away. I had to get rid of a lot of ill-will early on, and I could definitely see the benefits of a metta-centered path, but I never thought to relate anatta to selflessness in that respect. It's funny, it's even right in the meaning of the word "selfless". A person who doesn't dwell on their "self" would naturally spend their time thinking of other people, and the only relationship that would make sense would be empathy, since there wouldn't be much for the selfless person to relate back to. I'll try not to turn this into a "method" haha, but maybe I'll think of it as a rudder. Steer towards compassion, and let that dissolve the remaining conceits I haven't dug deep enough to find yet. Thank you for the idea!

That's right, but it seems to work with the problems, not in spite of them. I notice mara is there, but I enjoy dancing with him rather that trying to sword fight like I used to. I notice the traits of the old emotions, but they don't seem to have any effect that could be called suffering. I can't say I'm in this mind all the time, but it's indestructable on its own. The only trouble I've had is that sleeping seems to reset my understanding of it haha. I know that a view of the unconditioned is supposed to help you fully eliminate ignorance, but I don't really understand what's left to do at this point aside from a bit more practice in concentration. I'm thinking it's always best to just assume you're done, and let new understandings come on their own from the practice, though. If I slip into the unconditioned, great! If not, at least I have my tranquility, right? XD

I'm probably thinking too much again here, but I'll risk it. :3 Is there anything worthwhile beyond the witness state? I like to think of it as the end of my path, since all I ever wanted to find was peace of mind.

You are all completely right, of course. ^^ This must be why the zen master burned all of his books, haha. I keep getting caught in thinking I've found a "method", but you can't really call effortlessness a method. It's more of an anti-method... I guess the only thing I need at this point is to remember I'm on the right track and stop trying to intellectualize it. Maybe the whole practice is just breaking bad habbits, and the further we go, the more it seems like we haven't done anything. I've become a bit obsessive over the past few months worrying that I'm going to lose progress or something, but that pretty silly isn't it? When there's nothing to do, nothing is left undone...

I think, actually, this debate could be related to what kind of meditation you are doing, as well. Perhaps breath meditation will manifest some kind of light and a one-pointed mind, whereas a meditation on open awareness will yeild a unified and open mind and no nimita. I know jhana is starting when I begin to feel a rise of piti, and this mostly happens suddenly and without expectation. I would happily call this some other mental state, but it's usually followed by a general releasing of top layers and a cooling phase that leads to a very powerful equanimity. I'm also willing to conceed that these jhanas are actually the "vipassana jhanas", but those are considered the same deal for some teachers. I think the debate is kind of silly, TBH, because it's probably all the same layers of mind being accessed at different levels of concentration. Seeing a nimita could be a prerequesite for a complete and powerful absorption, but the buddha said to be mindful of each jhanic state while traveling through them, so if you can't be thoughtful of what you're experiencing, then it's just a fun ride and you'll have to gain insight from reflection later. (Not that i'm criticising mystical states. They are very healing in their powerful forms.) ---please excuse my spelling/typing. I'm on a tablet right now lol

You seem like a philosophical/scientific fellow, so maybe this explanation can help. If we remember for a moment that all spiritual concepts (or scientific and philosophical concepts) are words used to describe the personal experiences of a person or group of people, we can lable these words as "qualia". 10lbs is meaningless unless you have some experience holding and measuring different weights in your hands. If I say "I can lift 200lbs over my head!" it's only impressive if you have tried it yourself (disclaimer: I can't lift 200lbs over my head XD). So if we think about the descriptions of the Tao as measures of qualia, it can make more sense. Lao Tzu wasn't saying the Tao was nothing OR no-thing, he was showing us how to measure it. We simply have to stop looking at green as green, and leaves as leaves, and see beyond the words and measurements. Then we say "oh, it was there all along."

This kind of thing confused me quite a bit when I first started having Jhanic experiences during meditation, soI'd just like to point out that I disagree completely - just for the sake of anyone else reading who might be confused. I have never seen any lights during meditation, and the buddha never mentioned seeing lights during jhana. This was a concept derived from medieval manuscripts. Some people DO see lights, so don't feel off track if you do, but more important are the Jhana factors described in the suttas. It will be very obvious to anyone who enters jhana that they are in altered states of mind. I've recently gotten to the 5th jhana, and here you do begin to lose track of you body a bit, but the first three jhanas involve physical sensations, so I'm not sure how you could say samadhi is developed only when you see a light and stop physical sensations. The most important factor in my experience is that samadhi is developed when a very clear shift happens and you notice the awareness rests easily on a single object. This is often translated as "one pointedness", but a better translation is "unification of the mind". If you can keep the mind from wandering for 30 breaths or so, you will be able to experience jhana. This debate is all over the internet and I will concede that my experiences don't last for very long, but they are consistent and they match the suttas. You don't have to wait 10 years for jhana, you can start now, and in 10 years you'll be a real master.

Tao tao tao, tao tao's the word.

Maybe you could just say: If you think you've found the Tao, let go of it, and that is the Tao.