Kajenx

AHH, see, this makes sense now. I think this is cheifly what I'm working on, actually. The less that is "self", the less we need to worry about. Thank you for clearing that up for me, haha. To be honest, I'm not a very mystically minded person anymore. I definately used to be (and I don't judge anyone badly for beliving in ghosts or trying to cultivate psychic powers or that sort of thing), but I was worried buddhism might have too much of a focus on beliefs to "work" in that by observing your own cessation you suddenly believe you don't really exist and won't have to worry about yourself anymore. This probably just came from my own misunderstanding. Again, lost in the words and ignoring the concepts even though I knew what made the most sense... XD I really have been confused by a lot of buddhism in general. I always thought it seemed like meditation does both tranquility and insight/awareness at the same, and I couldn't find the difference between the methods. If a meditation on not-self is a good way to get travel through samatha, then obviously the two are connected. People are "doing vippassana" all over the internet, though. It makes it very confusing. I should probably just stick to Thich Nhat Hanh books from now on and let his conversations with various inatimate objects inspire me. ^^

I guess what I'm really asking, though, is how do you know you've found something that's True? In the sense that it is reality as opposed to another kind of delusion? If you've truly let go of all concepts and live in a non-conditioned state, doesn't that mean you let go of the idea of both self and non-self, and simply live without defining what life is? I suppose in the end no-self is just another name for something, and to really know something is to need no name for it. I mean, I can understand why believing there is no "self" would help you let go of clinging and aversion, but why rely on it? Why not just let go for your own happiness? Or maybe I have it backward and after you've finally let go of everything, you could logically be said to have "no self", since there would be nothing left to define you, and nothing left for you to define your exprience. It's easy to get hung up on words. Lao Tzu makes more sense every day, hehe.

Haha, I was being sarcastic!

What is this open mind pointing to, if it isn't the end itself? This is a question I've had for a while, actually. I've read a lot about the cessation moment and stream entry on DO, and they seem to pursue it like a goal, but in the end, isn't it more like a signpost telling you you're letting go enough? We aren't able to live in a cessation, and even if it reveals all the mysteries of the universe, how can we trust anything we learn from it? There's a lot of talk about no-self in buddhism (and Taoism too). I understand the concept and how it could be realized, but why is it even important? If we can simply let go of everything, does it matter if there is a self or not? You can say no-self is just a way of describing a lack of attachment I suppose, but I've seen a number of places talk about "Truth" with a capital T, meaning we're going to discover the true reality or the true nature of the universe. Is this the goal or buddhism, or is it a corruption of the core ideas? I just want to find a lasting tranquility, and the buddha said that all he taught was dukkha. The four noble truths are "True" in the sense that the mind can free itself from struggle, but this doesn't seem to incorporate anything to do with understanding the nature of reality – or even the nature of the mind beyond what it’s capable of doing for itself. Maybe we need to find an explanation of the universe that makes sense before we can let go of it finally? Maybe this is why Stream Entry is only the first of four levels? Would an Arahant or a Tao master talk about Truth, or would they just tell us to let go? I guess the only way to know is to experience it for myself at some point and see if it changes me at all, haha. I feel like I'm not really communicating my question well, but maybe the spirit of it got through somehow. Yes, I think at some point you realize that the things you're trying to "get" are actually the result of removing. It makes for an interesting understand that seems entierly contradictory. It's alright to want peace of mind as long as you don't WANT it, and simply allow yourself to want it, lol! Everything can be observed without attachment, even our feelings of attachment.

I had a very important realization a few weeks ago (important for myself, I should say, maybe most other people know this already). I was sitting in the parking lot of a store and I saw some beautiful boys walk by. I've always had little pangs of longing when I see beautiful people, and I decided to sift through the feelings and see what they actually were. One of them was sexual, one was a desire to be like them, another was a craving to posses them. The last one caught be by surprise! Sexual desire is obvious - I'd thought through that before - and desire to be like a beautiful person is an expression of vanity (I think I'm a very vain person most of the time haha), but I'd never thought of people as actual possessions before. Or, I should say, I've always thought of people as possessions, but I never realized it. This was the true root of the feeling, and it changed my whole viewpoint just by knowing about it. Suddenly their beauty was something I could enjoy completely, in and of itself, as an expression of my humanity rather than as a desire for any kind of possession. I thought of them like wild birds, more beautiful in their freedom from my clinging mind than they were when I had tried to posses them. I thought about all the beautiful people in the world, and I realized that, by wishing nothing about them, I suddenly could posses them all in whatever contact I had with them, and when the contact was over, there would be no loss. Longing and desire comes from wanting more than we have and missing the whole that's already there. There was no competition all of a sudden, no need for any relationship in specific, no anger at the ugliness of one person because the person next to them is beautiful. It had all been there before and was suddenly erased. All of this is, of course, completely ridiculous, as well, because how can we really posses anything? The moment we take hold of something, it slips away. The universe is well oiled, you might say... This is the most important thing I've learned in the last month in my own practice! I've carried a lot of hatred with me over the years, and I recently had an experience that showed me what my mind could really be like without any of those feelings. It was wonderful! But then when I went back to "normal" it was agony to realize how much I'd put in my own way, and how much strength I'd given it. Amazingly, it doesn't take much to let it all go. I kept thinking of it like "unilaterally disarming" myself. If it helps, try to see all negativity as suffering. If someone is angry at you, you can respond with compassion for how horribly hurt they must be. This can be a truly lovely feeling in itself, and it will end conflicts very quickly. I like to tell myself these days that: "I will accept everything, and judge nothing. Not because my judgments are wrong or because I have no right to judge, but because I want to be free from judging. It is the greatest burden." But you already know everything I just said. ^^ I've been looking into something similar with pain and gore visualization. (I've always been afraid of sharp things...) It's about acceptance in the end, so if we can face our worse fears (and worst smells, haha) with tranquility, we can rid ourselves of even more burdens than we'll probably ever have to face. I love this! (Also love your avatar. :3) Haha, just remember that you're allowed to get off when the ride is over. Walking might not seem as fast as a jet pack, but if the jet pack has no gas, you can walk faster without it on your back.

Well that doesn't sound so hard! XD

In relation to what Songtsan said and also this: I'm wondering if the mind needs to be reined in, or if the mind settles itself. I've spent a lot of time trying to force a kind of mindfulness, but if you begin thinking of it as the opposite, it seems to be much easier. If I let my mind wander, and then allow that wandering mind to be an object of awareness along with the rest of the world outside it, it seems much easier to remain in an observant state. Maybe this is what you mean by following desire? We can follow the desire in the same way a puppy will follow an interesting smell - maybe roll in it a bit when we find it - then move on whenever it seems more interesting to do so. XD

Definitely. Actually I feel like it's completely different from how it was before. I can recognize a few stages that seem to happen each time I sit now. First, there's a sort of snapping to attention that occurs - I don't try to do this, it seems to happen naturally even if I let my mind wander a bit - and soon after that I become very relaxed and the pleasant bodily feelings start. After sitting with those feelings for a bit, they'll usually take off into mind and body euphoria (piti? sukha?). I've had two different things happen after that. One will be a sinking feeling as the euphoria seems to taper off (this reminds me very much of how the stages of Jhana are supposed to go) and this sinking feeling can end in a kind of complete emotionlessness, or it fades back to normalcy before it gets all the way there. The other thing that can happen after the peak is the euphoria turns into a very bizarre buzzing and my eyes start to vibrate very quickly. It puts me in mind of a black hole sucking you in, maybe? I've had some of these stages happen independent of mediation as well. The emotionless/empty feeling has just kind of happened a few times without any catalyst - though I should say that I've been paying close attention to my mental states and trying to remove judgments from them, so this might be a kind of meditation anyway. The buzzing has happened a few times when I've been laying in bed - actually just last night I was laying there, and I had the feeling that I was aware of my skull (if that makes sense, lol!) and I was moving my jaw and thinking about how the bones and skin are very odd. I felt kind of like I was inside of the skull or something. That's when the buzzing started and I felt a bit like I was being sucked down a drain. I should note that I wasn't tired during this, so I don't think it was a dream state. I tried thinking about my jawbone again this morning - kind of moving it up and down - and I had a similar feeling appear again. I used to have that happen sometimes, actually. I'd get very dull and fuzzy and feel a bit numb after I got up. It felt kind of odd, really. Sorry to go into all the gory details, haha, but I just find all of this very interesting. If I went back a month or so and told myself about these mind-states, I probably would have thought I was lying or I'd gone crazy. O_O This is a good idea. I used to read a passage or two of the DDJ every day and just kind of lounge and think about it. ^^ It's a lot of fun to go back to it now! You're totally right, of course, haha, but I'm not really aiming for anything in particular, so it's just fun to see what other people could tell me about all of it. When the first event happened, I definitely over thought it, but I don't think that's too much of a danger now. When I realized that all the good things that had happened were tied to letting go, it was hard to justify holding on to anything. I had a week or two where I kept finding myself all caught up in an emotion and I just realized how ridiculous I was being, haha. I've had a lot of trouble with anxiety in the past, but at this point I don't see how it could catch me again. If I feel some kind of negativity, it's very easy to dissociate from it and just let it be whatever it is. It goes away within a minute.

Isn't that machu picchu? (Macho Pikachu :3)

Thank you for all the replies! This has been very helpful. That's it exactly! I did some research on Zuowang after I read that article, and a few sites said it was a kind of concentration meditation, and even compared it to Jhana. After I first learned about Jhana, I tried doing the breath meditation specifically (I wondered if I'd maybe been doing it without thinking about it) and it did seem to work. I could understand what they meant by being concentrated, and I got the euphoric feeling. However it felt too much like work compared to what I'd been doing before, and after reading this http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/yogi-tool-box-letting-go-approach-to.html I went back to my old method (since I felt a bit more justified doing it) and it worked a lot better. I even wrote a note to myself in my journal saying "Jhana is an adjective used to describe the state of mind that happens when you let go of everything. It isn't something you do actively, it's something that happens." I tried to remind myself not to go looking for it, but to, instead, try to let go of everything that was blocking it. In terms of stepping behind, it almost feels like a little switch in my head. I'll be sitting there angry or worried about something and then, oh! I realize I don't need to be "worried" I can just be "tight in the chest" and remove the worry from it. That tightness is easy to accept along with any other little physical discomforts because they just come and go pretty naturally. I say "stepping behind" the emotion because that's almost what it feels like in a physical/mental way... Like I popped out of my head and I'm looking at my own mind. It's maybe not so dramatic, but these things can be hard to explain, you know? In the end it's basically just removing the reason behind a feeling and allowing the feeling to go on as itself without any real reason behind it. This is my main reason for posting here, TBH. Jhana sounds right in terms of effects, but not in terms of method or signposts, so I was wondering if a different map might be helpful. Right now my thought is that it's probably a jhana-like experience, since there is much more similar than different in terms of description, but maybe since there is less concentration on a single object of concentration, the experience itself is more broad or spread out. Maybe Zouwang could be used to strengthen mindfulness, and anapanasati could be used to strengthen insight into individual characteristics of things? This makes sense to me. I do actually feel myself "tuning in" in a way, or kind of snapping to attention. I admit I never fully understood what "concentration" meant in terms of meditating. I think there's just a lot of misinformation out there. especially coming from New Age type things, which I was exposed to a lot in high school. I think I had a negative view of it, TBH. Buddhist ideas on meditation make more sense if you think of everything in terms of "be gentle with yourself." It's easy to get lost in the idea of "discipline" as a bad thing. Maybe a better word to use for English speakers is "persistence", since discipline is also a word for punishment... This is definitely what I meant to say. The non-judgmental emotionless state doesn't attach to anything, so after the second time I had the euphoria during the meditation, I spent the next three hours staring at my ceiling with a kind of perfect contentment. It wasn't anything but itself. Actually, I wrote myself a note that said something to the effect of: "When you have trouble, remember the painter behind the painting, the cotton seeds in your shirt - that messy perfection where everything is collage and paint splatters..." etc...it went on for a while. Maybe this still isn't correct? The mind state after meditation was much more interesting to me, TBH. I felt like everything was in 3D and I could actually see it for the first time - but even beyond that was the simple perfection or everything. It felt like it was the first time in my life I'd been completely without preoccupations. If you don't count the nimita as a jhana factor, then they really do seem to match up to me, but I'm not expert, for sure. "Unification of mind" and piti and sukha are present, I think. When the euphoria appears, I feel like I get lost in it mentally. There are always thoughts present, though, somewhere in the background. I've seen so many disagreements about what strength of the factors actually counts or what is and is not a nimita that I've done more to confuse myself than clarify anything. Like you said, I'll just keep going and see what happens, haha. This sounds a lot like loving kindness meditation. I have actually found that to be very helpful, as well. :3 I really like this! The food analogy makes a lot of sense actually. ^^ Thank you again for all the replies! This has all been very helpful. I know it's silly to get lost in methods, but sometimes I wondered if I might be doing something wrong because my methods didn't line up. I knew logically that didn't make any sense, but it's still nice to see that other people practice the same way and I'm not going down the wrong track. Whether or not I've hit any signposts isn't so much of a hang-up for me. In the future I'll just try to regard any new sensations as potential attachments that should be let go of and seen as themselves.

Yeah, see, I don't know that either of those really match up for me. I've never seen any lights or felt like I could feel any vibrations or energy flows or any of these other things I keep reading about. I'm not really sure I'm actually concentrating on anything in particular. Mainly, I just sit, and whatever seems to be moving in my mind I just let go of it, or maybe "step behind" it and watch it without letting it be a good or bad thing? Maybe this is observing "no self"? I feel like I can step out of my bad moods pretty easily these days. What throws me the most is how closely the experience resembles the jhana factors. In one meditation I started with the very strong euphoria for a minute or so, then the bodily feeling kind of peeled away and it was a kind of mental bliss. Then there was a sinking feeling as everything mellowed out and I was just floating in an emotionless state. That emotionless state is what I felt after the first experience, and that was when I realized it was what's generally sitting under everthing else that's going on in my mind usually. I slipped into that mind-state a few times kind of randomly during the day but it was very unstable as my excitement about it tends to add something back on top of it, haha. Something else I should add is, sometimes after the blissful feeling, if it isn't very strong especially, my eyes will start vibrating very rapidly and I get these bizzare feelings all over my body. My arms and legs feel like they're being stretched too far or something. It's all been a bit of a roller coaster ride this last month, haha, who knew just sitting there could be so interesting! edit: Maybe I'll post this on DO too and see what they say.

Now that I've lured you in with that criptic title, lol... I feel a little silly, but I don't understand how the mystical traditions and the philosophy can fit together in the same mental space. It seems like the sage that Lao Tzu describes doesn't have many concerns with immortality or controling body energies or semen retention. So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the mystical side of the folk religion could help me understand how it relates to the philosophical ideas. Doesn't all that striving and praying cloud the whole concept? They seem mutually exclusive to me.

I ran across this a while ago and thought you guys would like it. I did a search to see if it was posted here already, but if it has been, feel free to delete me. http://ramblingtaoist.wordpress.com/series/book-of-chen-jen/

Haha! I mean me as in the post. ^^

The tao that can be crosstrained is not the eternal Tao. Lol, I'm terrible. I'm confused by this thread too, though. XD

Damn you got the reference in there before me! XD

This is what I'm talking about more than anything. I'm not really talking about meditation of tai chi or that sort of thing because all of that seems very direct to me. It's the seeking magical powers or immortality that just doesn't seem very Tao to me. But I'm suspecting it's not quite like that to the more devoted practitioners. Is immortality a symbol for something else? Maybe it was a belief in ancient China that we were all naturally immortal and leading unnatural lifestyles is what killed us? I dunno, I'm just trying to understand the connection. I really know very little about the mystical practices, so maybe that's why I seem so ignorant. As an example, I was interested in Ceremonial Magic for a while because it seemed a lot like what you guys call "cultivation". The rituals were supposed to induce different mental states and create a space for higher thinking and meeting the subconscious and etc. I'd say it was like a kind of theatrical performance for yourself - a lot like shamanism there. But I always thought they were expending a lot of effort for something that should be very easy. Why not "just do it" instead of attaching all the goals to ceremonial crutches and rituals. It doesn't have to be so difficult or complicated. Wu wei and all that. ^^ Haha, that would be wonderful, wouldn't it? Sadly, no, I just don't come online every day. XD

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by calling it "folk religion" but that's the most common verbal distinction I saw when I was reading about it online. It seems like I offended quite a few of you, and maybe that’s because most people asking these questions seem to be saying the mystical or shamanistic practices are less legitimate. I’m not trying to say that at all, I’m just genuinely interested how the philosophy relates to the practices, because it doesn’t seem to make sense from my perspective. If it’s not supposed to make sense logically, that’s fine too, but I still wouldn’t mind at least an attempt at explaining what the practices do for the practitioner. I’ve become wary of mysticism after plodding my way through the Christianity, Wicca, and various forms of Paganism, and was drawn to Taoism because it seemed so direct and obvious. When I read the Tao te Ching, it was like I was reading an outline of everything I’d come to understand on my own up to that point. So if it truly is the Zen of Zen Buddhism, then why the rituals? I’m asking out of genuine curiosity, not out of disrespect.

I think you might be mistaking my question Shanlung. I didn't make any of the claims you bring up there, I just don't understand the need for all these practices. The concepts in the Tao te Ching are pretty simple, and the alchemy and magic in the folk tradition is pretty complex and full of rules and traditions. I'm not against traditions, and I don't consider retreating up into the mountains or meditation to be silly or pointless. It just seems like searching for immortality or some kind of bodily or mental control is opposite to the idea of yielding and letting go. Why would a Taoist try to become immortal? The pursuit itself seems antithetical. EDIT From Wikipedia: Maybe this is actually the perfect state for anything called Taoism to be in. It's not supposed to be definable after all. I've done a bit of reading around the internet, and it seems like maybe part of the answer to my question is that "Taoism" itself, as a THING, is a western concept. The Chinese seem to be much freer with the idea of religion and treat it eclectically. If you can pick and choose the gods you worship and the philosophies you follow from a cultural grab bag, then there's more of a melting pot effect and everyone has different shades of Taoism, Confucianism, etc in them. Things that Westerners see as different and contradictory practices are all mingled together. It's also easy to interpret a lot of Taoist texts in a huge number of ways, so it wouldn't be inconsistent for someone seeking immortality to still be called a "Taoist." But this makes me feel better in a way, because if it's true that there is such a melting pot, it wouldn't really be wrong for westerners to consider themselves a part of that pot. I'm probably a little bit Zen, a little bit Stoic, a little bit Taoist, etc.

Haha, well this is why I asked. I've always been hesitant to say I'm a Taoist because of how Chinese it really is. I admit that I have no idea what Chinese culture is like beyond my love for Wu Xia movies. ^^ What I'm asking, though, is how philosophical Taoism relates to the folk traditions in the minds of practitioners. I understand some things can be lost in translation, but there's a lot less lost than people who use the quote usually admit. I know french pretty well and I've seen subtle differences in word choice and grammar, but after you look at a few different translations of something, you're not going to be missing anything. Wordplay can be described and understood. We're all still humans, after all. What I've learned from Lao Tzu is that the more you study, the less you understand. The more you follow traditions and rituals, the further you are from the path. Actually, to even call ourselves Taoists probaly means we aren't actually Taoists. So how do the folk traditions mingle this idea with the rituals they do? Or is it simply a different set of beliefs and has nothing to do with the philosophical side? That's exactly what I'm saying!

Haha, that's great! XD "Not much today." lol! My family is Italian too, so I can relate. But, you know, just a few days ago I added another phrase to my paper: "Endless patience is the key to freedom." If you can use your family gatherings as practice, you'll probably never have trouble anywhere else. It really is the hardest thing, though... There's something primal about family. I think it's because we've known them all so long that our social habits have turned into muscle memory. I have trouble around my family because I don't understand the person I am around them. I don't think they even know who I really am. The good news is, thought, that we're always able to rewire our brains. At least, I cling to that hope.

Taoism is actually very simple. There is no enligtement to seek. There are no sins to watch out for or rules to follow. You can't make any mistakes and you never have to ask for forgiveness. Just ask yourself, do you want to be happy? Well, what's stopping you? Just do it now, why wait? If you attach happiness to anthing, including spiritual cultivation, then you're just waiting to be happy. You're procrastinating it. You can just do it now and skip all the rest. If this cultivation stands in the way of you being you then it isn't worth much is it?

I think I might change it to: "Now I understand this spiritual path."

@Jainarayan: I consider my family to be patience practice. No one is better at telling people they're wrong than my Mother. ^^ I've noticed that nothing disarms sarcasm better than kindness, though. If you smile at people mocking you, their negativity will pass right through. I have a sheet of paper I read every day. It's a set of habits I'm trying to form (at the top I wrote "For Freedom" as in freeing yourself from your mind and environment :3), and the one that's both the hardest and the most effective is: "Remain yourself around dominant personalities." Negativity is a powerful emotional force, I think. It sweeps everyone up around it, but if you can maintain your calm within in, it dissipates pretty quickly. I think people don't want to be negative; it's just a habit we all have. So if you're happy in spite of the negativity around you, you become the dominant personality and people will try to emulate you instead. The oddest part is, you just have to remember it. It isn't hard at all. You'll encounter a negative person and begin to feel negative yourself, then you'll suddenly remember, "Oh, this isn't my mind making these feelings," and you just step outside the virtual 'zone of conflict' if you will. Sometimes it's kind of funny, because you can see it hanging over everyone, and you'll be like this little island floating in the middle of it. Kind of like Plato's cave. People who are drowning swim for dry land, though, so it doesn't last long, and when everyone else has pulled themself out, you'll know you were the one who helped them.

So, I signed up to respond to a post, and it seems like I can't do that, so I'll say hi here instead. I'm also joining because I've found that, in spite of Lao Tsu's famous lines, the more I read about the Tao, the easier it is to understand. Or maybe, now that I understand, reading about it makes it easier to stay. Either way, I don't think this forum will corrupt me, but I'll tryto be careful.