norbu

Pardon my intruding here. Back a few pages I read several posts dealing with the Goddess saying students needed to be pure of heart etc etc. The Goddess wasn't referring to human concepts of "good and bad" behavior. Anyone who has spent much time doing Tibetan Tantra would know she was referring to being present in the Dharmakaya, the clear light, as being "pure of heart". There is a way of doing exercises like Tai Chi or Yoga Hatha while in the clear light, and doing so will remove an enormous amount of Karma from the individual. If you can abide in the Clear Light, and just "Be There" ANY system of exercise can benefit you. If you do it long enough you can most certainly see the room around you as though filled with Golden Light...and more beyond this stage awaits those who train in this manner. As I said, pardon me for intruding, but I thought I would put my 2 cents worth in and hopefully avoid new students getting the misconception that the Goddess was referring to human behavior. FP is a wonderful art and I wish all who practice it the results She mentioned. Norbu

One view on Sangha is that mixing with a group we get various feelings stirred up within. In a real Buddhist Sangha these things that get stirred up inside us are the things we need to work on within ourselves. Sangha can create frictions that stir up different feelings. If we handle those feelings we grow. If we run away from them we don't grow on that point. Norbu

A thought I had while reading the above, sensible approach is that westerners rarely know the product of an exercise. They are well concentrated on the doingness but rarely do I hear mention of the actual product of an exercise , how much is enough? What "thing" (or things) can I expect to see manifesting when I have achieved the final product of the exercise. If I don't know that product, I could easily overdo an exercise (or under do) and there in is I feel the danger. You don't know you have achieved the result so you "pour on the pressure" and the packing is overdone. My first teacher told me that a result of Iron Shirt, for ex, was to withstand a hard blow during combat. I let a friend who was over 200 lbs and a capable black belt, hit me with all his strength in the solar plexus with a full lunge punch with all his weight behind his fist. It didn't hurt me or in any way faze me. Did that mean I was "complete" in my Iron Shirt work? I have no idea how to answer that. I no longer did the Iron Shirt exercises, and I no longer bothered to block if I was in a free fight. I just took the kicks and punches as they came. Then the novelty wore off and I went on to other forms of training. But I wonder if any of you guys have an idea or two or three re what would be the final product of Iron Shirt? Norbu

In a post a couple of pages earlier the "Protectors" were mentioned. I can't speak to Chinese Protectors,but certainly can attest to the strength and power exercised by Tibetan Protectors. A few years back I had a dramatic example of their power. I had long been interested in the Tibetan Martial Art known as "Lions Roar". (No, it is nothing like the chinese imitations) There is, for example, only one teacher in the USA who knows it and I was badgering him through emails to train me. I had learned a few moves from one of his students and wanted more. He advised me to stop practicing the few moves I knew, and only resume practice if (1) I was Tibetan Buddhist, (2) If I could be trained correctly. He emphasized that the protectors were quite able as well as willing to intervene if outsiders messed with Lions Roar. There was, at that time, a Chinese sifu in chinatown in San Francisco who claimed some knowledge of Lions Roar. I went to chinatown and inquired around town as to where I could find this man, saying I wanted a match with him. I found where he was training but he was in Europe, and none of his students would accept the challenge from me on his behalf, so I left. Later I emailed the man who I knew taught Lions Roar and told him about the incident and asked if he would accept my apology for my rude behavior. He said it didn't matter. The chinese man I was hunting was dead. He was practicing Lions Roar in austria and his brain literally exploded and he died instantly. I never practiced anything of Lions Roar again. Don't ever doubt the power of the Protectors. Norbu

Just a comment to one of Antares posts a couple of pages back. He mentioned that Terry Dunn had commented re Tibetan Yoga and FP being compatible. That is true. I have done the complete Tibetan Yoga (Trul Khor) system with one lineage and find no conflict at all between Trul Khor and FP. I wasn't quite sure what the reference was regarding Tantra, so won't comment there. In the TK I learned there are 40 basic postures. Then the third year consists of learning how to combine different ones of these 40 postures to cure specific ailments. The fourth year is a complete review of the first three years. Other lineages may teach differently. Norbu

I was fortunate enough to spend 3 weeks in retreat with Geshe Tenzin Wangyal one summer, and the entire teaching/practice was on A-Khrid Dzogchen. They also introduced an A-Khrid Trul Khor (A Tibetan Yoga) we did each morning. The Bon have three practices of Dzogchen: A-Khrid, Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu, and Dzogchen. I gained a great deal from Geshe Tenzin that summer, and could totally advise on getting his books on Dzogchen. He taught at Rice University, and as he told us, he learned how to talk to Americans, and most importantly he learned ho to teach Westerners. His instructions are clear and easy to follow. Norbu

Yeah, I think you are correct in your view of IS. I'll probably just leave it alone , at least for now. Thanks again for the help. Norbu

I appreciate all the input and thoughts you guys have listed here in response to my question. I think what I most wanted to ask, but didn't, is this: Why is Iron Shirt necessary for Tai Chi? I've done Chen, Sun and Yang with good instructors...but none ever mentioned anything about Iron Shirt. I've always considered Iron Shirt a "Hard style" practice. Can anyone clarify for me why Iron Shirt is even needed for Tai Chi? Does it add anything to the practice? Norbu

Thanks to all of you for the added insights. I need to clarify my origin post, with apologies. I'm new to this website so not sure always what terminology is used by most of you. The shaking, vibrating etc of arms and legs while doing standing (or sitting) qigong I am familiar with. As most of you said, I just "ride it out" and pay no attention to it. What I was calling "spontaneous movements" is different I think. My body would almost "float" is very gentle, slow moves, not unlike a very slow Yang TC form. I would "back off" and let the energy move me until it stopped. My teacher at that time was a man from Shansi provence who was a close friend of T.T. Liang. He suggested I just "let go" and let the energy move me. At times when the motion would stop, my entire body would vibrate in a very fine frequency not unlike a tuning fork. My teacher referred to these moves as "no-form" and when I did a memorized form he called the "form". At this time in my training I would do standing for an hour to two hours each day. We had nine postures we used. I was just curious as I haven't met anyone who had this experience over the years, bt thought maybe someone on this site has had these type of movements. Norbu

Thanks for your input guys. Nothing like asking and getting experienced answers. I had always considered Iron Shirt, Bone and Marrow work as a hard style chi kung associated with shoalin and other hard styles. The Tai Chi interests me as where I live there are no Tai Chi teachers with any background to speak of, so I was curious enough to buy and read the Tai Chi book, which as you know, kept promoting his Iron Shirt book. Anyone else want to chime in, I appreciate all the input I can get. Norbu

I have studied Tarot/Qabala since the early 60's. I am a member of two different esoteric orders, both of which specialize in Tarot use. The BOTA school in L.A. is by far and beyond the repository for correct use of Tarot in this time. The Avalon Group, formed by Gareth Knight, and presently headed by Wendy Berg, is another excellent order if you want to learn the true uses of Tarot. I saw several places on here where people were trying to "go it alone." One word of caution: You don't have the knowledge to determine what training is best for you. You are letting the ego determine how you train and this will never bring you a truly successful result. Neither of these groups is expensive to join, so my advice is if you are going to play with the Fire, learn how to build a proper stove to contain the Fire. Norbu

Has anyone worked with Mantak Chia's Tai Chi Chi Kung? If so, was it beneficial? Any pros and cons appreciated. I have done Yang, Chen, and Sun Tai Chi and have always had a "gut feeling" that this 13 step system is about all one would need for self defense. (I have a 4th Dan in Shorin, and 1st Dan's in several other hard style arts,and these are what I use should a need arise to defend myself or my family.) I am currently re-learning Chen Man Ching's 37 step form, but am curious about this one b Mantak Chia. Norbu

Has anyone had experience with Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt system? Did it seem to produce a beneficial result? What is your experience with the system both pro and con? I'm not interested in it as a martial art/combat skill, but as a prerequisite for his Tai Chi Chi Kung. Norbu

The VHS tapes were by sifu dunn.

Thanks for the info re Spring Forest. I've ordered the CD you mentioned and will give it a try. Norbu