norbu

I have studied Tarot/Qabala since the early 60's. I am a member of two different esoteric orders, both of which specialize in Tarot use. The BOTA school in L.A. is by far and beyond the repository for correct use of Tarot in this time. The Avalon Group, formed by Gareth Knight, and presently headed by Wendy Berg, is another excellent order if you want to learn the true uses of Tarot. I saw several places on here where people were trying to "go it alone." One word of caution: You don't have the knowledge to determine what training is best for you. You are letting the ego determine how you train and this will never bring you a truly successful result. Neither of these groups is expensive to join, so my advice is if you are going to play with the Fire, learn how to build a proper stove to contain the Fire. Norbu

Has anyone had experience with Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt system? Did it seem to produce a beneficial result? What is your experience with the system both pro and con? I'm not interested in it as a martial art/combat skill, but as a prerequisite for his Tai Chi Chi Kung. Norbu

Pardon my intruding here. Back a few pages I read several posts dealing with the Goddess saying students needed to be pure of heart etc etc. The Goddess wasn't referring to human concepts of "good and bad" behavior. Anyone who has spent much time doing Tibetan Tantra would know she was referring to being present in the Dharmakaya, the clear light, as being "pure of heart". There is a way of doing exercises like Tai Chi or Yoga Hatha while in the clear light, and doing so will remove an enormous amount of Karma from the individual. If you can abide in the Clear Light, and just "Be There" ANY system of exercise can benefit you. If you do it long enough you can most certainly see the room around you as though filled with Golden Light...and more beyond this stage awaits those who train in this manner. As I said, pardon me for intruding, but I thought I would put my 2 cents worth in and hopefully avoid new students getting the misconception that the Goddess was referring to human behavior. FP is a wonderful art and I wish all who practice it the results She mentioned. Norbu

One view on Sangha is that mixing with a group we get various feelings stirred up within. In a real Buddhist Sangha these things that get stirred up inside us are the things we need to work on within ourselves. Sangha can create frictions that stir up different feelings. If we handle those feelings we grow. If we run away from them we don't grow on that point. Norbu

A thought I had while reading the above, sensible approach is that westerners rarely know the product of an exercise. They are well concentrated on the doingness but rarely do I hear mention of the actual product of an exercise , how much is enough? What "thing" (or things) can I expect to see manifesting when I have achieved the final product of the exercise. If I don't know that product, I could easily overdo an exercise (or under do) and there in is I feel the danger. You don't know you have achieved the result so you "pour on the pressure" and the packing is overdone. My first teacher told me that a result of Iron Shirt, for ex, was to withstand a hard blow during combat. I let a friend who was over 200 lbs and a capable black belt, hit me with all his strength in the solar plexus with a full lunge punch with all his weight behind his fist. It didn't hurt me or in any way faze me. Did that mean I was "complete" in my Iron Shirt work? I have no idea how to answer that. I no longer did the Iron Shirt exercises, and I no longer bothered to block if I was in a free fight. I just took the kicks and punches as they came. Then the novelty wore off and I went on to other forms of training. But I wonder if any of you guys have an idea or two or three re what would be the final product of Iron Shirt? Norbu

In a post a couple of pages earlier the "Protectors" were mentioned. I can't speak to Chinese Protectors,but certainly can attest to the strength and power exercised by Tibetan Protectors. A few years back I had a dramatic example of their power. I had long been interested in the Tibetan Martial Art known as "Lions Roar". (No, it is nothing like the chinese imitations) There is, for example, only one teacher in the USA who knows it and I was badgering him through emails to train me. I had learned a few moves from one of his students and wanted more. He advised me to stop practicing the few moves I knew, and only resume practice if (1) I was Tibetan Buddhist, (2) If I could be trained correctly. He emphasized that the protectors were quite able as well as willing to intervene if outsiders messed with Lions Roar. There was, at that time, a Chinese sifu in chinatown in San Francisco who claimed some knowledge of Lions Roar. I went to chinatown and inquired around town as to where I could find this man, saying I wanted a match with him. I found where he was training but he was in Europe, and none of his students would accept the challenge from me on his behalf, so I left. Later I emailed the man who I knew taught Lions Roar and told him about the incident and asked if he would accept my apology for my rude behavior. He said it didn't matter. The chinese man I was hunting was dead. He was practicing Lions Roar in austria and his brain literally exploded and he died instantly. I never practiced anything of Lions Roar again. Don't ever doubt the power of the Protectors. Norbu

Just a comment to one of Antares posts a couple of pages back. He mentioned that Terry Dunn had commented re Tibetan Yoga and FP being compatible. That is true. I have done the complete Tibetan Yoga (Trul Khor) system with one lineage and find no conflict at all between Trul Khor and FP. I wasn't quite sure what the reference was regarding Tantra, so won't comment there. In the TK I learned there are 40 basic postures. Then the third year consists of learning how to combine different ones of these 40 postures to cure specific ailments. The fourth year is a complete review of the first three years. Other lineages may teach differently. Norbu

I was fortunate enough to spend 3 weeks in retreat with Geshe Tenzin Wangyal one summer, and the entire teaching/practice was on A-Khrid Dzogchen. They also introduced an A-Khrid Trul Khor (A Tibetan Yoga) we did each morning. The Bon have three practices of Dzogchen: A-Khrid, Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu, and Dzogchen. I gained a great deal from Geshe Tenzin that summer, and could totally advise on getting his books on Dzogchen. He taught at Rice University, and as he told us, he learned how to talk to Americans, and most importantly he learned ho to teach Westerners. His instructions are clear and easy to follow. Norbu

Back a few pages I was reading a reply Sifu Terry Dunn had given a person who asked about involuntary body motion: "With regards to the involuntary vibratory motion and swaying of the upper body, head and neck areas caused by the seated FP meditations: JUST RELAX AND LET THE ENERGY MOVE YOU NATURALLY. YIELD TO IT FOR IT IS A SMOOTH AND SUBLIME HEALING ENERGY. and the energy will move your body naturally if you relax. The vibratory effects of the FP energy will ALWAYS subside eventually." I learned a system of chi kung back in the early 70's which essentially had 9 standing postures. When done, if you relaxed deeply enough, the body would begin involuntary motions, not unlike a Tai Chi form. The basic things my sifu told me were: (1) relax and let the chi move your body unimpeded. (2) Don't start thinking etc as this could break the flow. Just do a sort of "zazen" while the body was moving. (3) In any given day, the energy would move your body according to what its needs were on that day, and when the chi was through cleaning you out, the movement would just stop. I never discuss this with people due to so many being negative toward the exercise. Now I see Sifu Terry Dunn giving similar info to a student on this forum, so I want to ask: Has anyone else learned this system of chi kung...or had a similar experience of body movement? I later learned a Tibetan system from a girl friend who lived with George Oshawa (founder of the Macrobiotics system) and it is about ten times more powerful but I have rarely shown it to anyone. In the method I learned in the 70's when we let the energy move the body we called that "No Form" as it wasn't based on a memorized form. When we did a memorized form (Tai Chi for ex) we called that "Form". Anyone else learn this system? Or experience this involuntary motion? Norbu

Yeah, I think you are correct in your view of IS. I'll probably just leave it alone , at least for now. Thanks again for the help. Norbu

I appreciate all the input and thoughts you guys have listed here in response to my question. I think what I most wanted to ask, but didn't, is this: Why is Iron Shirt necessary for Tai Chi? I've done Chen, Sun and Yang with good instructors...but none ever mentioned anything about Iron Shirt. I've always considered Iron Shirt a "Hard style" practice. Can anyone clarify for me why Iron Shirt is even needed for Tai Chi? Does it add anything to the practice? Norbu

Has anyone worked with Mantak Chia's Tai Chi Chi Kung? If so, was it beneficial? Any pros and cons appreciated. I have done Yang, Chen, and Sun Tai Chi and have always had a "gut feeling" that this 13 step system is about all one would need for self defense. (I have a 4th Dan in Shorin, and 1st Dan's in several other hard style arts,and these are what I use should a need arise to defend myself or my family.) I am currently re-learning Chen Man Ching's 37 step form, but am curious about this one b Mantak Chia. Norbu

Thanks to all of you for the added insights. I need to clarify my origin post, with apologies. I'm new to this website so not sure always what terminology is used by most of you. The shaking, vibrating etc of arms and legs while doing standing (or sitting) qigong I am familiar with. As most of you said, I just "ride it out" and pay no attention to it. What I was calling "spontaneous movements" is different I think. My body would almost "float" is very gentle, slow moves, not unlike a very slow Yang TC form. I would "back off" and let the energy move me until it stopped. My teacher at that time was a man from Shansi provence who was a close friend of T.T. Liang. He suggested I just "let go" and let the energy move me. At times when the motion would stop, my entire body would vibrate in a very fine frequency not unlike a tuning fork. My teacher referred to these moves as "no-form" and when I did a memorized form he called the "form". At this time in my training I would do standing for an hour to two hours each day. We had nine postures we used. I was just curious as I haven't met anyone who had this experience over the years, bt thought maybe someone on this site has had these type of movements. Norbu

I was browsing the web and saw a set of VHS tapes for Terry's Flying Phoenix chi kung. My first question is does anyone know if there are differences between content on the VHS and DVD? I saw, for one example, a 50 part chi kung form on the VHS and a 20 part form on DVD. Does anyone know why this difference? Is there a reason the 20 step form is more complete than the 50 step? I plan to buy the VHS tapes and have them converted to DVD, but wanted to save the money if there was a reason not to. (I just began FP and it produces splendid results.) Norbu

Thanks for your input guys. Nothing like asking and getting experienced answers. I had always considered Iron Shirt, Bone and Marrow work as a hard style chi kung associated with shoalin and other hard styles. The Tai Chi interests me as where I live there are no Tai Chi teachers with any background to speak of, so I was curious enough to buy and read the Tai Chi book, which as you know, kept promoting his Iron Shirt book. Anyone else want to chime in, I appreciate all the input I can get. Norbu

The VHS tapes were by sifu dunn.

I have noted different systems seem to start the orbit from Different places around the circuit. I don't know which one to use. In my attempts to try it, I just relax and breathe softly, and the circuit seems to run Along on its own. Is this simple way to run the circuit ultimately the best for me? Norbu

Thanks for the info re Spring Forest. I've ordered the CD you mentioned and will give it a try. Norbu

Thanks for the advice guys. I guess I'll check out Mantak Chia's website. Like he's the leper with the most fingers I guess. When I did Yin Xin qigong, the circuit just took off on its own This time I wanted to resume working with it and wasn't sure who to use as a source.

Phowa is the tibetan name for a process to assist a being in leaving his/her body at the time of death. It is also a method which can be used to change bodies if circumstances call for a sudden change of venue. I have studies and practiced both methods, so if any ave questions I will certainly do my best to answer them. But to reply to idiot_stimpy's thread from January, (1) No, if the Spiritual Being leaves the body it doesn't mean the body will die...unless the Being fails to return. Sometimes it happens as a stimulus to the person involved. I first left my body consciously in 1960. I sat there above my body looking at it and mentally "scratching my head" re "What on earth is this about." I found little help in books so went to see a practitioner of Zen I knew in Honolulu. From there I followed a trail of questions. Each question leading me further along toward the Tibetan Lama with whom I have trained for awhile. It is nothing to fear. It can be learned by anyone I suppose, but you need to locate a Tibetan Lama who will teach you. I personally have found the best Lamas at this instruction are the Bon Lamas. They can assess whether or not you have the background to assimilate and practice this art. If you have questions I'll try to answer them. Norbu

"Thank you for your generous offer. I would be interested in your sharing more details relative to the "sudden change of venue". How does one integrate into a different body? Also, would that be a kind of possession with respect to the consciousness of the other person?" Jeff. When I was being trained my teacher offered her body. The "test" was to occupy, fully describe the scenery, people around etc. Enough so she could tell I was there, and sort of grade me based on accuracy of the data I could report. It isn't, to my experience, any different than how do you integrate within your own body. My own feelings are that should I have to suddenly move out of this, and into another body, I would simply take the body over and the previous owner would be ejected. I took over 2-3 bodies briefly just to see how it felt, and I don't think the previous owner even knew I was there. Re Gshe Chapur, I am not sure when he will offer phowa. You just have to watch the website. A close friend of mine and some others recently visited Menri Monastery in India for Phowa which was taught by H.H. Menri Ponlop (my teacher in Bon) and when they returned to the states she couldn't wait to show me the photos of them with the stalk of Kush grass sticking out of the hole in the top of the heads of all of them.. This is a sign of success in the training. Norbu

Of the Bonpo Lamas I know here in the US, I would say the best instructor is the Geshe at the Gyaltsen Institute in Los Cerritos, CA. I may be wrong on the address, but I know it is around Berkeley area. There is also a Lama, Geshe Tenzin (Not Tenzin Wangyal) but I don't kow if he is currently teaching in the US or not. I would not attempt to instruct another in the art. It requires a top quality instructor. This is not much help Iknow, but if you don't locate Geshe Chapur at Gyaltsen, then post again and I'll email him and ask where he is teaching and if he plans a Phowa teaching soon. Norbu

Hi, I am Norbu. I began Tai Chi using Master Chengs little thin black book, back in the early 60's. I spent god knows how much on long distance phone calls to Bob Smith, trying to learn tai chi by phone. I ran a school in Copenhagen for a couple of years, but usually stayed pretty much to myself. I learned an esoteric aspect to standing in '73 so spent the next 7 years doing nothing but standing. I still favor standing above all other chi kung exercises. Now I'm 74, getting long in the tooth and decided to return to CMC's short form and just do that. My first teacher was from the Tang family in the south. The man had been a monk at the Sarmoung Brotherhood monastery for 20-21 years and was trying to get their teachings through my thick skull. I am curious about the Chi Kung DVD;s Terry has produced. Has anyone done these long enough to tell me if they produce good results? No disrespect intended toward Terry, but I have tried a lot of nonsense called "chi kung", as I'm sure some of you have as well. Anyway, I'm here and glad to be among such a learned group. Norbu

I have experienced recall of many past lives. There are methods which anyone can learn to apply and thus recall (or relive) them with ease. In the 60's we had a small group who worked on this topic daily. The general consensus was that we all went through similar view points during this experience. (1) We all had the "Oh I'm imagining all this." concept. Soon replaced with a silent awe. (2) We would see people we know in this life in an earlier one and could often see where we developed this or that feeling about this person or why we react to them in a certain way...and in this life we would still be acting the same toward them. (3) A LOT of our present life attitudes were developed earlier...but we still acted them out this time around. Thus our actions were not always logical in this life...where in the earlier life acting in a certain way made perfect sense. A word of caution. DO NOT USE HYPNOSIS TO ENTER PAST LIVES. Were all the memories pleasant? Of course not. Some were and some weren't fun to recall. We usually ran the life up until death, then we would let the person describe their death and if possible the state after death. I'm not sure if posting this helps any but thought I'd add my two cents worth. I am Norbu

Hi, I don,t know if it is the same monastery or not. At the time I met this man It was the early 60's and I had no knowledge of Gurdjieff. I am not that familiar with Gurdjieff, but do know that chogyam trungpa also came from their monastery. He had me do nothing but standing exercises. At a certain point, when I could let go And relax within, the energy would begin to move me. This was different each day According to my body's needs that day. I later learned a Tibetan method that was faster to take effect, but did clean out the channels VERY fast. Not sure if any of this answers your question or not. Norbu