Birch

Thanks for the suggestions for techniques Ralis. Yes, I'm doing what i need to to deal with the financial anxiety ( caused in part by honking a44holes who are about to have us go through a second wave of unecessary speculative panic. However, since i realised "i bring all misfortune to myself" i am being vewy vewy careful about how i perceive money and those with honking huge amounts of mine that they don't deserve in any way shape or form.) In fact, if we use the "money is energy" idea, I'm being vamped. I used to be great at math. In fact it was one of my strongest topics. But IMO math is only useful for this once we've figured out what we're counting. That's a people thing, not a math thing IMO.

Steve has a good answer to this one:-) Paradigm separation. My take is that science and religion meet where neither of them want to get into explaining why too much;-) However, lots of science going into the study of mind/body practices but avoiding the "spiritual" as IMO that would hint at things about reality that we can't put back into the box either. So until the pradigms converge, my take is it's up to practioners to find out themselves (which is where things converge anyway, at the practitioner:-)) My 2cts

I don't have enough smarts to understand economics. Forget about Ralis, explain it to me :-) I think my brain went into suck mode the first time i heard "rational" and "free market". Somehow i felt neither of those to be the case but the econ folks insist on both of them. How can i contribute to the discussion if i can't get past either of those? The money stuff i sort of get. The "where to lay responsibility" for any given market, I don't get. If it's "free" even less so. I thought the idea of a new type of money was interesting.

Hey Scott, that's a cool idea! Aaron, you could do a TTB world tour! Then you could find out if all these forum people are the same offline as online! I'll bet that would make blog status, or grad-school project status, or documentary-status! I'll sign up for it. I have a couch in the frozen north far enough away from VJ. PM to find out where because I'm not telling otherwise!

"That's the seductive allure of models and theories. Especially if they are breathtaking in their explanations." I especially like this one SB. And I believe it's one that has been of great help to me in my 'spiritual' experiences and various practices. Where I think I've gone wrong in many cases (and still continue to do so in some areas) has been in the handing over of my own understanding of (too?) many things to others. If I am not an expert in every single field (which I'm not) and I need (to some extent) to rely on other people to make reasonable choices about things I neither control the conditions around nor have expertise in, am I then consistently setting myself up to get the short end of the stick? I suppose people might call me lazy for not knowing all the facts and I do find myself checking stuff out a lot more than I ever used to (pre-internet, I suggest it wasn't quite as easy to find them out and being raised and educated by sheep doesn't help:-)) but here's a fact. I cannot possibly know everything at the point of decision. And I find it hard to know things that are intended to be concealed from me. Not impossible, just difficult :-)

Huh? Edited: attempting to not chew one's own fingers off to prevent typing further than... Oh WTF :-) Let it rip, let it roar :-) ---hilarity ensues----

Travelling! You're a good writer, you could blog about it as path 'old school wandering daoist'. There's also http://www.couchsurfing.org/ I'd be cr8pping myself at the prospect and I wish you safe and enlightening travels. K

I think it's great stuff SB is posting but I don't always feel competent to respond to some most of it. In my case, reading some of it makes my blood boil.

It's nice to be thanked :-) Oh noooo! Attachment to the identification of being a TTB Who is it that is thanking? Who is being thanked? I'm kidding. Seriously. Nice to see you LBD. Hope things go well for you :-) ---cheerleading alert---- I think this forum is great. It has a bunch of different and interesting people in it. ----cheerleading alert -----

Well I'm certainly concerned about economics. Enough to start hedging and put some effort into skills that i hope will be useful in an economic crisis. It certainly feels as if the shoe is about to be on the other foot. Also disturbing to realise how much money has enabled me to escape actual exchange (those take quite a lot more effort) and involve the messiness of human relationships and conflicts and all the other things I've been able to swipe away with a swoosh of a plastic card or the drop of a coin.

That's interesting Mr MH. And why i need to IMO/IME improve my "word skills". It's one thing to feel as if a particular person's intention and expression of that is "---" (no words for it;-)) but quite another to respond skillfully. And quite another to be tempted to respond for vanity/one-upmanship and not do it:-) Right now, for example, I'm sorely tempted to jump into a thread but I'm doing my best to refrain for my own good:-)

No I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I think what i should have said was was the "discovery" of wavelengths themselves a subjective "act" of perception as much as the perception of the colours themselves is understood to be subjective? Does that make sense? The experiment was very cool.

"I think this is a good area to try and be careful with... but it's difficult to really know anything here, no?" Agreed. Doesn't stop people acting as if they do though. And when I say 'act' I mean actual concrete consequences, including consequences on others who didn't get a word to say about it all. My take is that it's better for me to be able to understand all this stuff and wield it in ways that are useful and compassionate and skillful rather than taking a 'let it all happen anyway' approach just because I lack the skills because I didn't learn them earlier in life. They certainly weren't taught when I was at school. Now they are, but they're taught alongside very specific ideologies IMO, or at least the people I've met that wield it well share very specific ideologies. I think (especially in socio-political arenas) the folks who have the insight, compassion etc don't always also have the rhetorical skills to carry their insights and compassion to fruition in ways that would make a positive difference. So attaining this particular 'siddhi' ;-) is important (at least to me it is:-)) despite it often being associated with less-than positive intents:-).

Yep, 'what we call illness here'. IMO (although luckily not IME because I keep pretty quiet about the whole 'spiritual experience' stuff because I fear if I described some of them to some people I'd get a 'she's barking' label sooner than you could say DSMV :-)) has a direct relationship to what society (we've been using that word a lot on here recently :-)) 'defines' as such for purposes that may or may not be helpful to the 'sick' person and those that care about them - and I mean really care, not just an appearance of 'we care because it looks better if we seem to' or 'we care because we feel this illness shows us in a less than wonderful light' - an inkling perhaps of an understanding as to part of the (causal?) relationship between health and relationships. To digress slightly, there has been some research done on the relationship between health and social position, relationship etc. It's 'out there' online and as usual if I find it and can find my post again and can post the links, will do. Back on the Autism stuff, there's a guy in Northern Europe who started a work-placement agency to take advantage of the unique skills of autists (stuff like customs security checks that demand long hours of concentrated attention to detail). I think it's possible that other societies have carved a specific place for people who are different where they can contribute because to do otherwise would increase the burden for everyone.

Reading that son of the guy who invented the laptop is now a practising Ayahausca shaman:-)

Nationalism. Edited: i think there were a lot of gaps in my construction and it didn't make it clear enough why nationalism (rather than nations) is pro-exploitative when it comes to transnational organisations. Not a very good argument. Sorry... I guess if i can make a better one, I'll repost. I'm still on this "society as distinct from people" idea and i was trying to inflate it.

This one:-) if you get this one it has exponential catapult power :-) And it looks simple:-) Sorry to add words to it Sinfest but this has to be underlined and emphasized and and :-)

Hey Hardyg! This stuff (objectivity, facts, logic & perception) is both something of a favourite topic of mine as well as an area of weakness for me. I'm a bit of an idiot in that i chase after my weaknesses:-) The way we label subjective perception is IMO/IME very important. I think the term "illusion" implies there's some kind of "real" perception somewhere. I think the admission that there might not be is a first step in mutual understanding (and appreciation?) I'm also curious as to whether these wavelengths are also subjective perceptions in some way. I know we've accepted them (the waves) as truth but i can't recall what means of measurement was used to get to this understanding. Is the act of measuring itself an act of subjective perception? And i wonder if there are also other or deeper truths about waves that we can get to. Apech said a neat thing about every scientific theory being inherently wrong but i don't know if waves count as a theory or not. I need to go brush up my categories.

"If it wasn't so, I don't think you would disagree that love is not beyond power." I'm sorry TaoMeow, this kind of sentence throws me offside. I don't get it. I get a "blank" when I read several negatives in a row. If I turn them all to positive then I find you agreeing with me, which is not important BTW. I just want to 'get it'. If I turn some of them to positive - ahh, think full and broken lines... Maybe my present incapacity itself is telling, but I'm asking you bear with my handicap and help me 'get it'. "Ultimately, the only, the original, the source-love in the universe is the love of the creatress to her creations, of the mother to her children. This is the only source children can learn love from. But don't buy the BS about love of the source and of everything that is universal and impersonal -- this is a big lie, a big cop out. Love is always personal. A pregnant creatress can't love a child in someone else's womb as much as the one in her own because she has no power over the child in someone else's womb. Love IS power. To use power without abusing it is to love. Everything else is lip service of the unloved to the unlovable aimed at placating the loveless, powerless, barren state of affairs in the world of power abuse. Word. " I think I was getting at that. IME, "universals" are extrapolates (attempts at, whoever they're by and however many books and followings and cults they spawn). But you know. I still kind of have that 'blank' about it (not your doing, obviously, unless you did :-)) so I'll have to re-read, re-cognize, review at some later point. Thanks for the (don't have a word for it). K

"Healed". With respects to what and who? His parents were distraught, couldn't deal with him. He seemed to be ill-adapted to many things, but what where they? I didn't understand what his parents were trying to do with him before they took him to the shaman. The shaman said something about the boy's illness being a sign of becoming a shaman (if I remember the film correctly) and that he would be a good one. I don't know what was meant but I do think that by itself is something to consider when it comes to understanding who and what is "healed", although I don't doubt it was a hell of a difficult for everyone. I can't find the links right now but there are lots of associations created by autists/aspergers'/deaf/blind/mute that insist that they are not 'less than' in any way with respect to other people (you should read what they call 'normal' people ) Then you have the blind guy who can 'see' by echo-location http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_echolocation.

Check this out SD. http://rockprophecy.com/hendrix_quotes_hoax.html Although it was nice of you to find me not corny :-). Sending you both power and love (but be careful to take only what's good for you. I learned that a while ago:-))

Oh. I had this feeling, that it (love) wasn't ever to be used in those ways you mention (and you didn't mention the reverse of the abuse) and that if it was used like this it became BS, worthless, demoted from love, lost of and from love, recognized as something else but not it, corrupt, insane. I had this feeling love was beyond all of that. Are we speaking about the same 'thing'?

You don't know how but you can imagine you do:-) IMO/IME "Buzz of society" = good place for many practices. Mountain-tops also good. Beaches, also good. Forests, love them. Cooking, massive practice. Offices, hardcore. Churches, very interesting. Internet, wow what happened with that??? Dude, you 'wait' for sunrise;-) Right there, if you can quit waiting:-) What do you need to learn from anyone??

Sometimes I think that's what it (Power) is. Sometimes I feel that's what it is. Power is an ability, a capacity, an action, a drive and an intention. Love is none of these things but it's the power behind power. (sorry if that sounded corny, I'm feeling corny and when I feel that way I don't know anything).

HNJT, i have a BUNCH of practice- related books to give to people. Most 2nd hand bookstores don't want them and i feel they ought to move from my shelf to a less dusty environment;-) The other reason i suggest books is that you can make your own mind up about things from lots of different sources whereas sticking with one teacher may (depending) involve taking on more than a practice, it may involve taking on a belief-system that may or may not be helpful to you in the longer term. In addition, that belief-system may or may not be compatible with you, your life, your goals. I feel very strongly that if a teacher is to enlighten then they should teach what they know, be there in times of need (because they know what happens with what they're teaching) and be prepared for the student to go their own way when the latter decides. Hell, welcome it:-) Not keep people as indentured "students" beyond what's needed by them (and not by the teacher). Read about family and clan martial lineages for other reasons to keep people around and indebted to you as teacher:-) The downside about books is that you can misunderstand the techniques, do them wrong and hurt yourself and the person who wrote it isn't around to help correct them like they would be in meatspace. Aren't there free mindfulness and silent meditation spaces near you? Lest this post be misunderstood by some, I have great respect for my teachers, all of them:-) Edited to add: you can really hurt yourself. Not just a sort of a falling over 'ouch, get back up' hurt yourself.