Birch

Well, I'm only speaking from my (weirdly progressive IMO) understanding of it. IMO jing/chi/shen/void is not a linear process with an end point at void. It returns. Even if you just spend time watching it do it (vipassana would be my suggestion for it) IME void can't/doesn't stay void. One time here, TaoMeow exclaimed her understanding of how Tao is set in motion. She hasn't elaborated on it since but I feel like it might be a good moment to do that in this thread. I apologize for my lack of classicism Chi Dragon but most of this stuff and my (limited) understanding of it comes via practice. I do read things and listen and discuss stuff with people but I think that part of it tends to be post-hoc - which is dodgy, like i mentioned elsewhere.

That's interesting. IMO/IME the "self-observing" is just a different type of thought than some of the others... To have a smooth witness experience requires IME that i ignore a lot of the other thought-types. I guess I'm advocating discernment. I think in some cases if i over-identify with the witness i miss stuff. I mean, it could lead in some extreme cases to dissassociation, making one a candidate for DSM IV. I know i keep saying this here but learning to drive is IMO essential. Not because some psych or academic or religious leader insists on the benefits of a particular way of thinking/perception that one has to abide only in that way. In fact, IMO folks who insist on abiding in any particular mode of thinking are either ignorant or know far too much about people's capacities and would rather they didn't try driving any other way:-) What I dig is being able to know each thought process-type from the others. Ain't easy:-)

Alright. I'm deep into Aghora 2 and the Bodhri pdf http://www.meditationexpert.com/Stages2.pdf (scroll down to very end) and both of those seem to me to discuss MCO from a couple of different perspectives. Props to 5ET for the Aghora book recommendation and to i don't know who for the Bhodri pdf. Anyways, from reading both of the latter, it would seem that MCO is happening all the time anyway. And i got an idea that the circulation itself was jing/chi/shen/void/shen/chi/jing. And if you're spinning it in any channels, you're only catching up to what it's doing anyway. I dunno if that's true but i thought it was interesting enough to ponder and post.

Which I'm personally pretty happy about because otherwise (as I said to Mal) it would be *game over* and I'm not ready for that (yet). Howevs, what IME does happen is i get a feeling of...disappearing, being a swirl in the ocean of consciousness. Sometimes I realise just how much I need you to make me "me" - that sort of thing. In fact, if my practice is anything it's to pick and choose what I'm bound by. Which IMO ain't the same as liberation. I figure liberation equals death.

Well I don't know if Xabir has or has not experienced what he's talking about but i do agree on the conditioned mind trap. I guess it just feels safer (to me) to have a container. But it would be wrong of me to attempt to push my container onto anyone else, especially where liberation is concerned. But you can IMO/IME give people vehicles to drive. But until they get that they're doing the driving... Sorry, blah de blah:-)

Hell, not to say I don't care about people. Of course if someone is having difficulties with their reality then I'll do my best to help.

I wouldn't put any stock in "qualifications" for lurking or nutherwise. Doesn't much contradict anything for me. What's alchemy if it ain't 'chemy:-)? From what I've understood so far. The activity of "Taoism" consists in the progressive mastery of oneself. I'd say a 64 hexagram container with quasi-infinite permutations is a really good idea:-)

Oh man. Do you think i would have to go *there*?? No, main reason for my remark is i ^feel^ stupid and below the many intellectuals and smart people i seem to have around me. Hence my desire for rhetorical skillz. Yeah, i feel like a dumbass. I'd rather not.

Now why would i do that??? If it really is their reality. Why would i go over there and tell them to check it? I guess if i didn't like it i might. But who cares what i like and what i don't? Not the things i like, anyway:-)

Thanks Aaron! I don't think I can do reality checks for anyone really. I can only tell them the way I see it.

I dunno Witch. Today I got this idea that that's what some folks want:-) Nope, I ain't giving up my 4th to just anyone:-p Need to retain if I want to reach those intellectual heights that I know are eluding me:-) Ever felt like you were just shy of being an uberintellectual? Yep, that'd be yo.

The only times I've pulled an all-night meditation session have been when there was no other way to get through the night. I don't know if I would do it on purpose. I guess insomnia is as good an opportunity as anything else:-)

Meh, IMO/IME the spirit isn't broken, it's just having a hard time pushing through/doesn't much care for present conditions. Really there is no splitty stuff to speak of but IME spirit (i.e. You) is smart enough to cooperate with whatever. I'd go with the "get out of yer own way" suggestions offered here. Have you tried getting in touch with yourself? @Steve. The "core values" thing is a good one. It ain't easy (opinion/experience alert) to figure out which values really are yours and which aren't.

Thanks Aaron. I know what you're saying. I feel it a little bit more "omg, can't go back" but I guess I'll get over it ( as usual). Now if you could just help me get everyone back to normal, that would help enormously. I'm fed up with the enlightened people:-)

I suggest we might need "unguidance" but since it's just something we've decided to do, doesn't matter really. So, given you're enlightened, what would you say to me who doesn't want to be enlightened but doesn't quite know why exactly but does know it doesn't matter if i am or i'm not (enlightened). With my thanks for the insight (given you're plugged in:-))

Woah, for a moment that sounded like Non, another TTb poster. What people who despise large numbers of other people? I don't think they actually do. I think they despise a few (maybe even only one or two) people and then extrapolate wildly to include lots more.

Well at least you know what you don't want:-) My two cts, go to uni but unless you're going for something vocational like medecine, I wouldn't spend too much cash on an undergrad. The paperwork is for the other people, not you. If i had to re-do, I'd take rhetoric and stats, maybe business so you can start up your own thing. I don't know what to do about parents except leave the house. As long as you're counting on their approval it's tough IME. I didn't listen to mine about life direction because i only had to look at them to know that i wouldn't follow their advice. Find people who are doing things you are interested in and ask them how they went about it.

Fundamentalist. Wow, I've been called a few things but not that so far. Happy to add it to the list of things other people have decided to call me. I happen to disagree:-) My opinion is that sex and lust and love are part of life and that it is the attempts to control and suppress these things that f*ck things up. By all means walk path of celibacy and ascetism if you wish. Criticize whomever you wish but i think in return you have to let those people you criticize respond. Which is what you're doing I think. So what's wrong?

Ah, Jim Morrison:-) Good times:-)

What he said.

My practice has sort of dropped off. As i mentioned to Mal, i don't want to be enlightened. It feels absolutely crazy-making so I've been trying to figure out what to do about it. I was thinking, maybe i should get a teacher but i don't want a religulous one. I still do qi-gong because it's a habit but i wonder now if I'm doing it right. Anyway, aside from that, working in the garden, working, meeting friends, stuff...

Dude, anyone who calls me "hon" has to either be 15 years older than me or from Texas or Baltimore:-p

That was a nice kick in the a$$ Mr Vortex. I am trying, really I am, to understand all kinds of things. Yes, my question was honest. Yes, I suck at rhetoric (mentioned already). Yes I do think it would be cool if a bunch of Taoist forum people could work out ways for all kinds of things to happen (including having people understand each other). We could probably do all the pie charts. But I'm not sure even then you'd be convinced. Best call I'd make on this one is go and talk to women about these issues.

The only way I know is mindfulness and introspection. Y'know "thinking":-) But pretty open focussed thinking, not the blowing leaves type. I'm sure there are written instructions out there. TaoMeow mentioned a book on Lucid Dreaming a while back.