Birch

"I'm not sure what you mean by "flesh"." As in 'in your body', 'part of you'. Like the way I walk and talk and what I can and can't do with my body. That sort of thing "see if you can stop believing in gravity" Are you asking me because I asked you to attempt to stop being a materialist? Really, I'm just afraid I'd fall over if I didn't believe in gravity anymore. "Try to imagine how your life would be different if you didn't believe it, or believed something different." It's sort of a thing I do. "Well, I was using Todd's word. It's a cool word, but I normally don't talk like that" Well then don't. It's IMO/IME too obvious. Use your own words. Trying to use other people's arouses the BS meter. IME/IMO Unless those words are also yours, in which case, use away :-) "As for how exactly, this is best answered in practice. You can try to pick some kind of relatively insignificant and non-contradictory belief, something that you think should be easy to get yourself to believe. It may be a good idea, while you are at it, to pick a belief that is relatively positive and helpful. Then affirm this belief as if you already believe it. At first you'll feel like you're lying to yourself. As you do this, visualize yourself as if you already believe it in your mind's eye. Then each time you affirm your new belief, you might feel like it's less of a lie. This will be true if you're accepting it. If you're not accepting it, then there is no point in forcing yourself. There may be a good reason for non-acceptance." And so we get to the basic reason. That there is a reason for non-acceptance. Doesn't mean it carries forward. But IME 'beliefs' don't just spring out of 'nowhere' and I don't "pick" them either. I might pick to extend them further than warranted, not realizing they might be relative and not absolute. "Sometimes you may also find that some types of pain are not something you will want to eliminate, because you'll realize that to eliminate certain types of pain you'd have to change your beliefs in such a way as to shock your conscience. In cases like these you may choose to purposefully let pain be painful." Oh, I think shocking my conscience is part of daily living. Many of my beliefs are already in tatters.

You know damn well that Santa Claus was a CocaCola remake

"if your really serious about stopping it, be totally "non-spiritual"" What do you mean? IMO/IME 'being spiritual' is yet another one of those make-believe things we impose upon ourselves. We ARE 'spiritual' all the time. But we figure (and I don't know why) that we're not and there's some realm in which we might be if only... The definition I'd use of 'spiritual' in the instance you suggest is defined (by me :-)) as 'in opposition to 'material''. It's the part that many scholars left to churches to deal with for far too long IME (given they were the locus of power anyway). Getting yourself killed by inquisitions will do it.

I probably won't write it because I am currently permitting myself to not work very hard However, it occurred to me the other day that many many books are read in order to get permission to feel, perceive, understand something, maybe not 'do' anything per se. But a justification of some kind. And then I noticed that I haven't read very many books telling me what I "can't" do...I tend to stay away from Bibles and things. So I guess my query is, how much permission do you need before you allow yourself?

Man, you just edited the best part of that post out. I read it once and read this thing about 'chickflicks' 'masculinity' and getting laid (or words to that effect) then you went and erased it. I hereby grant you permission to do whatever stopped you from keeping that part in your post :-)

"Many times they are stopped by rules that exist nowhere beyond their own mind." That's exactly why I suggested it :-)

Thanks but I couldn't get the link to work. I was thinking about it some more this morning and I thought we could start a 'permission chain' (a bit like the Haiku chain) where someone asks for permission to do something, the next poster grants it and then asks for permission to do something else. No assumption of consequences (because those will be assumed in the granting or not of permission :-)) Oh, and no asking permission for something you don't intend to do or that you don't feel or think or whatever At some point I could see the book generate itself, but then I'd have to ask Sean and the TTB's if they'd allow that . Or maybe it could work out as a collective publishing thing. Anyway, I thought Otis was very good at giving permission to me to inflate my degree roster with a few bought ones :-) Up for it?

Good idea. No visuals, or deities or anything at all. And if you've been hanging around on TTB's long enough, you'll have picked up some qi-gong that will do it. Yi-gong, maybe :-) Use it. MCO. Belly breathing. Find a good acupuncturist. Why? Because those people can help tweak things to a finer degree than throwing herbs at it can, IMO/IME I found the Biology of Kundalini website pretty useful. Maps are good for this stuff IME/IMO. But in many respects, IMO/IME you 'decided' to wake up yourself. Don't neglect psychotherapy. It'll likely 'work' faster too. IME. But find one that knows about 'awakening' or you'll freak them out and they will misread your 'symptoms'. Work out and exercise. Fresh air in all things:-) Have fun too :-)

A potential source of immobility. I'll explain the way it goes for me (which is why I've come up with the explanation in the first place). It might resonate or not. Anyway: In practice. The suffering I encounter can be dealt with in a few ways. Depending which way I opt (and I do think I'm at the point of opting) to approach it, I figure I can 'do' one or several of a few things (and I won't include the things that spontaneously 'come' to me out of the very circumstances of a given situation (that would be 'wu-wei' the way I see it): - Turn the volume down on my thoughts about it (although ALL the way down and IMO I might step over into denial) - Displace my attention, stop "feeding" whichever wolf is presently at my door (this is assuming there is one, in certain cases, there might be no wolf at all, but a paper wolf, maybe even one I folded myself) - Act immediately to make whatever is at the source of my suffering cease (in some cases, yes, my beliefs might be the source, but not all the time) - Take action longer term (for example, eat better food, don't spend time with a44holes, put on some clothes when it's cold out) I think if you misunderstand the needs of the situation and just keep on applying the top option (turning down the volume) then you may not do what the situation requires. That's what I'd call immobility. What do you call it?

We don't need shamanism. We have TV.

" haven't integrated well," "integrated well" into what?? Does it matter to you if other cultures find ways of doing stuff that is not from your lineage? Do you think that there might be valid ways of living and dealing with suffering and death elsewhere? You can see by my questions that I indeed do think there might be valid ways of living and dealing with suffering and death elsewhere. I don't know if it matters to you that other people might have other ways of doing it that don't fit with your lineage. On a personal note, if there's one thing I can't stand it's spiritual imperialism :-) Unfortunately, IMO much of Western spirituality is now bankrupt and so people are looking elsewhere. I very much appreciate techniques, do not appreciate dogma:-) I hear Toronto is very cold in the Winter and that many people end up moving to Florida

I'd asked a version of this one before but I can't find the old post. These days I'm 'running' what I describe as 'double orbits'. They mirror each other on both sides of the body, can cross over, can 'jump channels'. From what I've begun to understand, this is more 'yi' gong than qi-gong (but to be honest I'm getting my gongs mixed up quite some these days. Any suggestions/counter-indications?

Thanks!

Well, the 'something' is the issue yes :-) And IMO/IME it's not always where you think it is. I keep hearing in various forms that it's up to oneself to make changes 'if' one wants to see change 'out there' but also IME, this can be delicate to understand (because nothing will change what's 'out there right now') as well as being a potential source of immobility in people. I don't see myself as the be and end all creator of all experiences. It's also why I try (where possible) not to be a jerk.

Was it a 'version' of the muscle-testing stuff used in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesiology ? How much you 'invest' in a given substance-name or something? Like whenever I hear the word 'Glee' I literally cringe But seriously, I figure one way to set the BS detector meter would be if you didn't know what was in those vials. And if the practitioner didn't believe the whole thing. Doctors do this stuff too BTW. And if I recall, they even teach how in medical school now.

Ok. Thanks!

GIH. I liked the last post to with the easy to read bullet points. Thank you! Now for: "Beliefs are physic structures that are much deeper than what we profess." Just how deep? I'd say flesh deep. But I could be wrong You say "4. Beliefs can be closer to the superficial level or closer to the core level, depending on how strongly we invigorate those beliefs." How do you 'invigorate' a belief?

"Kate, turning your discursive mind off? " Yes. Turning it off - or maybe the noise down - either way, the net result is you don't chatter away to yourself quite as much. Except when "something" happens that really gets you. Then the volume goes waaaay back up again.

"spagettification"???

Well, I don't reckon that would work. They wouldn't pay for permission from just anyone I'd have to buy a couple of psych and philosophy degrees. Maybe an MD? IMO permission that works needs to come from some kind of authority. Which I'm not. That's where the book comes in Maybe I should get someone else to write it? Save me the trouble?

Thanks for this 5ET. It was very interesting. Here's my take. What if you don't want to be a vessel for a deity? I guess it's just a different kind of conditioning? And I won't get into prayer to disembodied distant gods...Sure, look at some qualities you desire for yourself - or that circumstances in the world (your life) point out to you that it might be a good idea to think/do something about, and then do the remodelling work but why buy into a prefab?? And I don't believe for a second you'd have a deity "at your disposal". If that's the case, then you already have yourself at your disposal. What if you just want to draw out new territory? In fact as far as I can tell, K is as much about what you do with it as what you don't. Like life. In addition to that, IMO (and I'd say I'd figured this one out through something like experience, but I could be wrong) shiva and shakti are expressions of the same 'thing'. Not two. Embodiment does that for you. It's also a reason why practices that include and do not deny the body are IMO/IME essential. I'd go and use my condensed-milk analogy again but it's not complicated enough to sell on TTB's

He has a point with this one. I have a pretty silent mind but that hasn't seemed to resolve a huge amount of anything much for me. Although when I speak to people they seem to take it seriously enough. Shutting yourself up verbally is IME only part of it (whatever it is). Which is why (again IME) one has to go through the emotions as well if you're going to get anywhere. Just as qi-gong layers it on internally (I have gained some pretty weird muscle awareness and control from doing it) I guess other 'techniques' shift the emotional aspects of belief. And by 'emotional' I am referring to physical sensation and not the accompanying verbal (or non-verbal, such as images) thoughts. The chakra stuff gets close to it IMO/IME but what happens if you're completely disassociated to begin with? In that case, I wouldn't reckon turning your discursive off would be a smart move...

Wow your pp forum has gotten really interesting

Thanks Phore. "In the trance state our minds can access the imagination that is a fractal of the collective imagination of earth that is a fractal of the collective imagination of the universe that is a fractal of the collective imagination of the way. Imagination is stored in a sublime crystalization pattern. In the trance state our brains (especially in the post kundalini individual) contains a higher saturation of the dmt molecule that contains this crystalization pattern." Yes I was wondering about this part. I still am wondering about this part. If what you're saying is the case, then wouldn't there be some really good experiments to do to prove it? And what about trance states that people don't recognize they're in ? It kind of reminds me of that guy's work about death prompting as a way to reinforce culture...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death

Well, it does say a lot (to me) about how watching a bunch of 'normality' can in fact blind you to what might be going on. And that peaceful people crossing streets and cars waiting isn't where you need to look.