Birch

I love synchronicity Here I was, just finished reading a book about paths and pitfalls and from it came a question that I directly related to a possible buddhism/taoism difference. From what I "got" from that book, everything to buddhists is mind, even emotions. However bodily the latter are in experience. And the book goes further to suggest that thoughts preceed emotions. However, in practice (at least where I'm at with it s far), I know this is not always the case, although they feed into each other, yes. IMO/IME Taoist practices have a unique way of dealing with natural embodiment that I haven't found so far in quite the same way in buddism. Another thought. If you teach women and then make their lives difficult for hundreds of years, it still won't work

"Buddhism is NOT monotheistic and where on earth did you get the idea that it was?" By looking at its behaviour and then attributing to it the same term that is used for other religions that behave the same. It's a contemplation in progress, so please forgive. - one human (male) incarnation of ultimate ideal - check - assertion that said religion holds one sole truth (and knows what that is) - check - practices to alter/control natural human characteristics - check - concept of sin/evil - check I think it's probably one of the nicer religions and there are lots of great practices that are included in it. No offense intended anywhere.

"according to Buddhism, the causes and conditions surrounding the experience and what the experience actually is, is generally not understood by most spiritual paths." "The" experience? Smacks of fundamentalism to me. I'm just concerned that these monotheistic religions - which i consider Buddhism to be one of- also get made up to take people off their own spiritual path and to put them on one that suits whomever it suits. I read in Foreign Affairs the other day that the US was very happy about the spread of Pentecostalism (sp?) in the "Global South" because it would make those countries more "US-friendly." That kind of idea just freaks me out. I find that while Buddhism has lots of neat spiritual tools in its box, which I'm thankful for getting my hands on BTW, it also seems to go beyond just handing them out with a set of instructions and letting people do with them what they will. To me this is contrary to the religion's advertisement of offering "liberation." I'm also concerned because it seems to morph into whatever flavour "the times" seem to offer up. I tend not to trust morphing things

Thanks TaoMeow! I especially liked something that Kan said (through the translator): "We're ALL free"

"Yes, but have you actually understood them from the point of view of the Buddha who gave them?" I've contemplated a lot from what I've read about his life, upbringing, years of practices and my own practices. It's experimental, it's study, it's...what it is. To ask a person to 100% understand something from the point of view of anyone apart from himself (especially a long dead guy I can't talk with, how convenient) is IMO knowingly cheating with your rhetoric, unkowingingly cheating with it, misunderstanding, or you could be enlightened and just playing But if you are the latter, I doubt you'd be banging on quite as much as you do about buddhism It's just a vehicle, another one. And before you tell me you have the best one, don't. "are you conditioned by 2,500 years of mix and match, blend and then new age all paths lead to Rome dogmatism? No

Okaaaay. So what are some plain English words for the other stuff you talk about? Just for us half-awake people Or, just for me I think my main issue is that Buddhism is a religion and IMO/IME those are meant to STOP people realising anything at all. The confounding jargon seems to help, as does the posing of a figure who can "talk it up" (I'm not saying this is you BTW, but you remind me sometimes of a priest ) Where's that post on the use of spiritual tools to hook people into religions? Use a few well-tuned spiritual tools and midway through the development, when a person is having trouble (which I suspect they often might) offer up your dogma as a placeholder? In practice I've found buddhist practices to be helpful but it's not making me a buddhist because I've done them.

"even if it's in another star system, by another name." Well then it's not I've gotten used to you with this stuff and I understand roughly half of what you're saying at any given time. But if I've "gotten" anything from all you've said. Why bother continuing to wish people to be buddhists? If they're buddha already, surely they can decide for themselves whether they'd like to wake up now or not? And if they decide not to - or even to do it a different way, does it matter? It doesn't automatically make it a buddhist event. Does it???

"Is it why we see deep violet light when we meditate?" Very cool. Ever get that "black" which is, uh, blacker than black? Or the little blue pinpoint light thing? I love the "scientific" double-up with this stuff. Sometimes I feel the poetry gets lost when we describe things in such terms but then I'll look a a photograph of a galaxy or have a conversation with a cat and the poetry comes rushing back

"Through false clinging to a self the identity is maintained." I dunno about this part. I think (and I know FWIW) that there is very little that is "false" about self. Although I will also abide with a dynamic sense of self, if only as the wherewithall/apparatus/whatjamacallit to experience life with. And I maintain that the self is ever-open, always growing and embracing and there's nothing wrong with it. Unless there is, in which case it changes itself, through suffering (and internet forums :-p)

Mr Unmike, that was simply wonderful! Thank you See? I said there were a bunch of awesome people on here :-)

And also because it could get plain too much Just got your book. Reading it from back cover to front. Very nice stuff. So far I got to the middle. Thank you for putting it out there.

What he said

Thank you Mr GIH. Hit some of my (current) ideas nicely. You wouldn't be softening yer approach would you? I throw ya a shri-yantra but couldn't find it.

Oh, that was GOOD and very noncommittal all at the same time. I think/believe from doing some of it that there might be some outcomes that are "similar" in terms of effects with all qi-gong practices. I also believe from contemplating (so give that less credence) that certain forms may align themselves with specific cultural thingamajigs (sp?) and as such have differing impacts on the cultural continuum if/when practiced elsewhere by other people. And would you believe I can't be bothered to write the list I guess it's because writing that list seems both very complicated and very simple all at the same time.

I know this is going to sound stupid but you always begin where you are with what you've got (including a desire to enlighten or deliver yourself) and I find that ironic (from experience) because the self actually doesn't want any of that enlightenment or deliverance stuff. What I found it wanted is just to be happy and healthy and a bunch of other things IMO/IME (maybe get some pick-up skillz or some other skill such as thinking properly along the way ). I personally find TCM, BK's stuff, eating well, exercise, a bit of Feng Shui, emptiness meditation and having fun arguing about reality (while trying to remain critical of our BS media culture) a good combo

Hi Jenn! It's a big post with lots of questions (and some assumptions too) so I will try to give my opinion about it. Some of it based on experience, some on opinion. I'll tell you when which is which. "no one has any compassion for your suffering...though it is extreme..or for another person's extreme suffering...no one has offered to help in simple ways, even had an ounce of sympathy or..even any feeling..." I assume you're talking about yourself and your own situation. I feel sorry for that as I have experienced both - both people unwilling to help and no compassion as well as people very willing to help and very compassionate, so I guess I can now say both of that exists in the human world. When being compassionate myself, I can feel, but don't take on anyone else's pain (wouldn't help either me or the person needing help). I don't know if people you refer to as not "feeling" it are doing something else. Might be. "people who you expect would--family, friends, people who may know you..." Yes, I have experienced this, and I found that the my expectations were in the wrong places. "people seem to be very emotionless to another person's horrible suffering..(this is for really bad suffering)....is there a reason for this?" I suggested the one above about not being a useful help if one takes on the actual suffering of others, but I'm sure there are a whole bunch of other reasons. One might be to avoid it. One might be because it calls too much into question. But I'm speculating (as I often do;-)) "do humans just generally not care for another person's suffering or, are they also happy about it.." I don't think so, but I'm not sure. "are they happy when they see someone down, in tears, struggling, tortured...and instead want to keep them down or even use their position of helplessness to take advantage of them?" I suppose it depends on the person. "i can see predators doing that...saying..oh this person is suffering...we can use them.." Predators will definitely do this. "but since ive witnessed most people do this...is this just a common trait of people? it doesnt seem like a 'human' trait but that of a monster or predator..." I think this is where it gets tough. Until now, yes, if this has been the case in your situation then it's tempting to generalize to all of the rest of humanity. I can testify for myself that this generalization doesn't hold. So yes, lots of predators as well as lots of compassionate people are "out there". "people who you expect to help you out..instead of helping you...either turn away, or help out your abuser or the abusers and in turn...even praise the abusers..ive only witnessed...abusers, psychopaths..being praised, for having 'control or power' over their victim, rather than any sympathy for the poor victim...ive witnessed people doing nothing to help the victim but just run away from them or make their situation even worse for them... and these are people who are living comfortable decent lives with no major problems...." I don't think living what's often held up to be a "comfortable decent life" in our society is necessarily something "good" But that's a personal opinion. I mentioned the system of denial in another post to you and it's entirely possible that an entire family or community in whom you place trust and expect to help will be part of the dynamic of abuse. "when a person is suffering...instead of helping the extreme suffering person, the other people use that person or try to for their own benefit..maybe males for sexual or they literally will try to use that person..while they are down rather than help them while claiming they want to help them...now these people wont do it to their own family members...or others...but maybe just a victim or someone else who needs help.." Well, if you're going to use someone and you need their cooperation, you don't walk up to them and say "hey, I'm going to use you, up for it?" Unfortunately, people who are down seem to need others so much that they will put blind faith in anyone who says "I'll help". I've done it. "do humans perceive another person's suffering as a way of benefitting themselves...helping themselves to feel better...use that as a stepping stool for their own selfish desires...or just carelessly ignore it and like to watch someone suffer ni that way?" I don't know about all of the humans but I think you've identified a few traits in people and I've given you a couple of other suggestions. "is this a regular human trait or abnormal?" I don't know. I suspect it may have become more "normal" than we'd like. But I'm speculating again. "i used to think humans..were 'humane' but when it comes to suffering...this is all ive witnessed, personally..." Some of them are, some of them aren't. "people turning away, neglceting, abusing using, trying to use or furthre destroy an already suffering person...and showing only extreme cruelty to the person and no form of help...nothing...ive witnessed faimly members screw over a suffering person...and make their situation worse, and espceially the perpetrators, abuse the person and act as if its their fault or they did nothing wrong...and hordes of people come together to gang up on the person who is being bullied...." I haven't seen this to the same extreme as you it seems. But I've seen it partially. "is this normal for humans to do...or just extreme psychopathy in the humans you find today or people these days...." I guess I speculated about that. "also, if a person is venting their situation onto public forums--is it wise, or do people just use that as ammo to feel better about themselves knowing someone is down and terrible things are happening to them?" I think it depends on the forum. I think TTB's is quite a good one for getting a balanced and helpful range of answers but I wouldn't necessarily take ALL of my concerns to a public forum. I've found the forums where everyone is in the same suffering boat very unhelpful. Here, you'll run into a lot of beliefs about suffering - given the "spititual" bent it has, so it might be harder to see through them to the help that people are trying to give. "i have never had a single person help me out during a major time of suffering or any time..not give me any positivity...do anything just to throw me in the gutter and do more negative/damage to me (any) chance they can get..." I'm so sorry about that. "most people seem to abuse those suffering and try to throw them deeper in the gutter in which they are...yet i know i still somehow hope in the faith or humanity of others...i struggle to find it only to find nothing...and just more abuse and cruelty... im just wondering if this is normal...for people to be this way....and its just something i personally dont know.. " There are great people who can and will help. You have to find them. "i know if someone came to me suffering..especially someone i know i would at least sympathize with them..." This is a very good trait to have, never lose sight of it. "but everyone i meet or talk to--'everyone' has other motives...they are horny perverted males wanting ot get into my pants or even use me in other ways..people who want something else....is everyone out there either someone who doesnt care or a predator?" No "i get that most people are dealign with their own problems too..." I think there's a lot more of this than we think. "but ive witnessed only odd cruelty out there at the hands of people..and strange mean attitudes..and total carelessness... it seems so inhumane to me..." I think it's part of "human" right now.

What gives against the monkeys? Anyway, I thought the arguments were interesting. I suppose for now that I'm enjoying the path of not quite being wherever GIH is. Do I need to be smarter than I am? Maybe. I will look to his example when that is required of me. But I think I probably need (at this point) to be more compassionate (towards self and others) so I'm working on that part of it. I think Qi-gong, BS or not, helps with that.

To start with, I really needed help. Then I found so many people willing to help. That I want to help too. Also, because I sometimes feel I contribute to a certain amount of worldly evil in my professional life, I like tipping the scales all the way back the other way when I get the chance. TTB's provides such opportunities Also, the people are smart, insightful. Also I get to talk about weird stuff that I don't get the chance to talk about with (very) many other people. It's not like "qi-gong" and consciousness-training is a common activity

I agree with what you've said jenn. I think there is a difference between actually being a victim and a "victim mentality". A victim mentality is IMO before the fact of being a victim of anything but likely stems from having been a victim in the past. No blame. Just the way it "might" "work". There was a neat post by TaoMeow about conditioning (animal in fact, but it works with us too ) It sounds like a vicious circle. However, comes a point at which you need to resolve to heal yourself and yes, seek out the compassionate help and support needed to do that. Pick the right people. I could speculate on why people would rather blame victims, I think there's a lot of literature out there on it. There's been some discussions here (I can't find) about how whole families will adopt a denial viewpoint about child abuse in order to maintain their own roles (or something like that). Just because people are "supposed" to be older and wiser (or even parents) doesn't mean they are. I think dropping the "mentality" part of the equation (and I've said before, distancing yourself from the sources of whatever is hurting you, doesn't matter who they are) will go at least part of the way towards helping yourself. The world is unlikely to change, but you can change your world.

This is all very nice. Thank you. I mean it's just being oneself (whatever that self happens to be doing at the point at which it turns back to search for itself) and being quite relieved that that's all there is. However, I still don't think it's very practical when you're embodied as an earthling. I guess that's why I prefer Taoist stuff. Hehehe, my Buddha-nature is actually a Taoist

Wouldn't "qi-gong" within a form be considered "tai-chi"? Or are you referring to "non-physical" forms that nevertheless remain "patterns" ? I'm guessing (and I'm no expert, I just do stuff). I don't think forms are BS because in many cases (IME) you can't do a gong without an impact on form. Sorry, waffling a bit.

I think it's a sort of a phase where you're getting closer to your illusions of yourself (and others) and so you "see" them that much more in others. It becomes distasteful for that reason. I think once the illusions get stripped (and you mourn them or kick them out joyously) then the "other people" issue isn't such a big one.

It's to find more answers to the question :-)

I liked his talk. I don't tend to like KW's stuff. I read one of his books and it was sort of too much. The argument about the continuum is interesting, sounds like a fusing of mind with pure awareness, or the realizing of where one's small self is inside of pure awareness. One of those "shiva/shakti" moments. I actually have a preference for the terminology in this vid rather than the buddhist stuff but this is likely just familiarity. Does taoism have "levels" or continuums? I think the yin-yang is quite different but I can't explain how (yet). A "fun" question could be "why do the psychotherapists stop at X level?" What's stopping them?

"and that good are always martyrs." http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMl03U3br5tl-wNRfaB4UZETpaMZ4yP9hgrMPXCb9N0jCuj99z I reckon it's a deterrent There are lots of good folks around. And a surprising number of them happen to hang out here They're smart too. And they don't seem to take BS from anyone. Edited: media embed was not allowed. Stupid site