Birch

Hi Ya Mu! Thanks for the info. I'm mulling it all over. There are so many great teachers here that it's extremely hard to make a selection. I guess I like the idea that the teacher chooses the student but I think it was mentioned elsewhere on here that eclecticism is an interesting way for many (especially now we have the option!) What's your opinion on multi-practice?

"a causeless cause is absurd" And isn't it what some physicists are trying to examine, that random (seemingly) events do just come into existence? That I find it absurd is one thing. "Absurdity" could just be a defense-reaction to the final proof that I have no control at all over reality. Worse than this, I can't even explain it plausibly, so who will listen to my wisdom and authority now? The "ownership" of the creation myth confers large amounts of wordly (and political) power to whoever "has" it. And if we can't own our creation myth anymore then I guess we can try to own our "destruction" myth. See people currently vying to do this in various ways, problem being they might just actually end up killing us all in the process.

"the forced type practices or practices lacking a good closing method are the ones people have problems with." Thanks Ya Mu! Could you give some examples of both? I'm currently building my own understanding of practices (not to do any more than understand, but I have some inklings of what's going on with some, and totally not with others...)

"So while superficially it's a "horror" movie genre it's actually about the Native indigenous shamanism as the hotel was on a native burial ground -- and then all the ghosts, etc. A favourite movie of mine that I can't watch due to the graphic violent imagery. The ending is so optimistic and beautiful but I can't sit through certain scenes to get there. I tried reading the book but I'd seen the movie first and couldn't make it through.

"BTW I don't use smilies much so you just have to read my facial expressions." Now that's especially weird because your posts do give off a nice warm vibe. IMO (and no offense VJ) the puppy in the room is definitely you But I like you too. Thanks for the information on the sources of various symbols. It does, however, smack of artificially created linearity (like most recounts of History) rather than what IMO more likely happened, a mish-mash of cultural borrowings and impositions that were then streamlined as the accounts/dogmas were written out. I wonder if that makes practice harder to grasp? Are the books keeping up with the people? How would the people know?

"degrees of assholeishness, but maybe not so clearly delineated as the degrees of enlightenment." I think we could probably establish a pretty good scale based on TTB's experiences Yes, Mr MH, I reckon it's absolutely possible to be enlightened and remain an a$$hole - given that it's up to everyone else (including yourself) to define you as such or not. "Liberating yourself" seems to ask that you give up any attachment to such things. For lots of people, I suspect I'm an exemplary a$$hole but I don't know if I prefer that to trying to please them so they won't think it. Which is a really an a-hole thing to try to do, go try to change someone else's mind about me when what I really ought to be doing is changing my mind about me. They're likely hardly thinking about me more than 0.00001% of the time. It's all too much work.

"no beyond phenomena source of everything" I hadn't understood Taoism like that. I understand reality like spirals (yeah, I know, not very good explanation) and I understand Buddhist interpretation of reality to be a simple reversal of some human dualistic thinking (hence the dependent arising stuff). I think that's why Buddhism is more accessible to some Westerners - because they are already dualists after all this time so no big deal to reverse it as a thought experiment. Taoism brings in for me the part between the dualistic polarities (yin and yang) - and the fact that both of those are a) always changing (into their opposites, if I can recall) and contain the seed of each other even as they arise. For me it's just a better "dependent arising" map than the Buddhist one. Then we get Taoist 5E. Buddhism has it too, but the elements are different and don't seem to flow into each other the same way as Taoist 5E. Taoist 5E is also compatible with the yin/yang model. I see this an an indication that Buddhist 5E is out of step with the rest of the system and I figure as such, it must be a borrowing from something else. Hinduism? At one point, the 3 religions (Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism) were apparently linked (I'll need to go dig to find out when and by who exactly) but then the Buddhists destroyed large swathes of the Taoist material (again I will need to go check who and when).

Heh. Then I spent all kinds of time trying to "work out" why it worked. Still, by this very posting my index fingers are still the same damn length as they were when I tried it the first time. I think that in fact I will never again be able to touch on the topic of my index fingers and not have them be the same length. And that's just fully disturbing. And what else will it do to me - interlude - as I type, I tried again and managed to get my fingers "back to normal." Then I realised I actually preferred them the same length (now "why" I prefer that could be a fun question) so I redid the JN trick and it worked again. Whatever

I wish my mom would have practiced at the very least "mindfulness" as well as "loving kindness." I think that might have changed a lot of things, for the better. When your kid pulls your nose, it might just be to try to figure WTF you have growing out of your face. I think the reaction to what the kid does is very very important. I don't have any but I think I remember being one

These days. I find that when I really really make the effort to listen to it, there's not much going on of note. Edited: to note irony of even telling you this

Thanks Drew for the Bateson stuff. Good read!

"Never try heroin, or any hard drugs for that matter" I remember making that pact with myself a long time ago. Then of course I went searching around for some other stuff (knowledge, power, pleasure and "enlightenment" ) Now, had I actually gone with the H, I might be more messed up, but at least I'd have an idea as to the "why" Peace and Love! (To borrow from MH;-))

Thanks Ya Mu. So what of the accounts of practitioners "overheating" through practices? From my own experience I have a few of those. But I wondered if it wasn't just due to more intense awareness and focus (or focus on myself as a source of causality...) And what of practices that are deemed "fire" or "water" practices? And what of the "ascending" and "descending" practices? I mean I guess it stands to some amount of logic that if you put your system into some amount of physical immobility (like prolonged sitting) then things are bound to occur from a purely physical POV. From what I've gathered, "balanced" systems include both immobile and moving practices.

"tears in the energy field" Is this a good or a bad thing? Not being psychic I can't say.

"the delusion of being a separate self" I'd rephrase this one and suggest "the delusion of being a self as defined by others" Of course we are separate! Even if we all share "consciousness" in a continuum. Which I agree (and have introspected the death out of) I share with everyone and everything. Hello computer! Doesn't pay the bills however and rather than flood the bookstore with another variant of an old system that could be rehashed 50 ways, I'd rather spend time trying to work out how we can take better care of each other. Because we're not doing very well at that. I am not you and you are not me. No matter. What's very unfortunate is the extent to which we allow others to define us and vice-versa and then go forward and act, believing it all. Non-duality is only useful as another concept IMO if you are able to live knowing which side of it you ought to be on at all times for best results to your health and happiness. Our "beautiful" societies encourage this state of affairs to the extent that it perpetuates systems that allow some to have more health and happiness than others and for the blame for dissatisfaction with the way things are to land squarely on the people who are suffering the most. Up to and not including the right to stand on, sleep and eat from the earth they were born onto. Talk about a double bind: "I'm here, I didn't ask to be here and now I have to pay for it??" The suggestion that one is in this situation as a result of "choice" or action in some past life is just another insult. If Buddha was upset at his treatment at an early age then it would make sense to search for an explanation and a way out. One person's experience cannot (and IMO should not) become the foundation of an entire belief system. Oh, wait...

Ya Mu, would you suggest that some practices are in fact the source of the symptoms?? Also, pls describe "normal" detox from other situations. That would be really helpful for me. Thank you!

"Because I really am fed up of being an asshole." Why? Really, I'm not sure you are an asshole. Not from what I've read here. I think that if people are assholes they are because they don't feel good. They're in pain and suffer. Plus we've spent all this time telling them that to feel good (or be taken care of) they have to go get/find/do something outside themselves. But that's total BS. I suggest that if you can ease someone's suffering without creating more then that person will stop being an asshole. I think because you can't think your way through it, one technique is to drop thought (or thoughts of self - which is supposed to be one of those roots of the problem - per those Buddhist people, it's one way). Another technique could be to send love through yourself so you finally realise you are the person who feels it, and you can do that any time. It's never been outside or dependent on anyone else. Of course if you've been conditioned enough, this will take some practice which is why I think the Buddhists go faster there by just dropping it. I think that the techniques are just techniques and knowing which one to use when is probably a good idea. I prefer the Taoist ones, also just sitting relaxing in the emptiness of all words and ideas and meanings.

"I also think it is a fallacy to believe western medicine suppresses, and eastern medicine cures." I think it's a fallacy to say ALL of either of those suppress or cure - problem is sorting out which from which.

" an activity to make oneself feel "special" with respect to others" - definitely meant the "coolness" factor - i.e. "Look at my heroic journey through my own mind and life . Bet you wouldn't be able to do it = I kick serious ass etc.." Of course no-one can see me doing it except me so it is kind of pointless

Oh cool. I was just about to ask some questions about treatment of "detox" symptoms using TCM or "western medecine" and by the latter I am referring to "suppressive" medication. I.e. one that suppresses symptoms (most often recognizable by the phrase "certain side-effects may include". What I want to know is: if you suppress a "detox" symptom, isn't the risk that it dives down further/prevents completion of the detox? Double-plus uncool in the longer run?

"How to Control It. " I would suggest "how to control your reactions to it". The reason I say that is because "it" is heading in a very particular direction. I think it's one that is "good" for you in the long run but may bring you closer to more "issues" faster than you might have preferred. I won't even get into the detoxing issue because that's on another good thread that I'd like to see develop. You don't even have to be awake to it to have this happen. In fact IMO that's what life does for you de facto. So many opportunities that put you over and over again in a position to wake up and realise the dualities that have been manufactured for you and on which side of them "you" actually exist.

"My childhood left me hating the word "God". I tend to have a physical "gut" reaction hearing it and have real difficulty not associating it with Christianity and stuff from my past. It has taken me many years to try and work through this and I don't think I'll ever fully get over it." - Me neither I even have a problem with men with beards as a result. Oops, Mal, forgot you have one No offence. We're still on the issue of projecting shakti vs chi? I reckon the best way to nix that issue is to get to study with teachers that do both. There are a bunch here to pick from, pick one depending on who you feel is sufficiently whatever you think is "teacherlike" - although I also see value in picking teachers who offend me just a little bit. This is a neat sign my ego has hit an edge somewhere. You don't have to join a group to do it (and I argue for going it alone where possible to avoid/mitigate some of the tricks of the cult trade). Then one will have some subjective experience to come back and discuss. It's hard to call BS if you've never tried, or practiced, or practiced enough (I realise "enough" is by definition not a conveniently measurable unit.)

Thanks Drew! Tried the "finger growing" trick. Hehehehehehe, it works

"How many of you have ever questioned whether meditation is an addiction?" Good call! How about also questioning whether meditation is: - an escape from personal responsibility and action in the world? - a way to achieve resolution of "real-life" frustrated desires? - an excuse to act like an a44h8le on internet forums - an activity to make oneself feel "special" with respect to others - necessary? Of course because it's me asking, I will also answer from my point of view: Of course ALL of the above

"Pan is cool a very cool guy." Haven't met him in person but I figure he's having way more fun romping around the woods playing music and doing bacchanals with nymph-chicks than I'm having right now tapping on a keyboard...hum, going outside sounds like a good idea.