Birch

From experience. Qi-gong leads to Vipassana-like effects and vice-versa. Especially spontaneous qi-gong, which IME spontaneousy arose following KAP. With more practice, I'm starting to see where my practice is lacking and the depths I can get to with various techniques. Also where I can't go (see my recent private post). I now consider it bizarre for a teacher to say they only use one type of technique and I actually think in practice they don't;-) But maybe it's more of a thing they say to differentiate the teacher? Systems are another kettle of fish entirely. But I would hope that any system offered be self-coherent (i.e not mixing stuff that shouldn't be mixed, otherwise would cause harm)and relatively open-source (i.e. if you want to find out all about it before deciding to practice it then that's possible).

All of the things I see are great, awesome and awful, On days when this realization doesn't feel like I'm killing myself and the entire planet, it's nice.

Yes, expensive.

John, you've nailed it (I reckon;-)) And it's not that weird. It sounds weird. Ever been affected emotionally by a movie? A poem? A book? Who saw the movie, read the poem or the book? And I don't mean anything Buddhist or Advaita-ist (sp?)

So we've got Shiva-pat and Shakti-pat and qi-transmission and yi-transmission and more! I have a kind of an inkling of which is which and even who is doing what sometimes. Actually, if you just hang out here, I'd said the place is sometimes so charged up you could just pull it all right off the screen in whatever flavour you want But Scott's right, practice being the best teacher. When you get to a point of knowing which "blockages" you want to clear and why you want to do that, might be a good point to look at "transmissions". IME I went for it "too fast" with Shaktipat, but you can't rewind;-) And I actually don't regret. So choose carefully, whether it be a teacher, a practice, an ideology, a religion, or a transmission.

"though they can sometimes be outrageously blissful for frustratingly short periods..." ...like a few breaths for example? I wonder, I wonder, if many people on TTB's haven't already gotten the "no-self" thing conceptually? If not in practice. I suspect many have... I question: Do they/we even need to? Many (illusory IMO) issues also come from teachers and scriptures which are designed (IMO) to be understood as saying that a person doesn't exist even before any clarification is offered. Scare them much? Oh I forgot that many religions require hell as well as heaven. I can't remember why, but still. This is very different from suggesting straight up, a relatively simple (re)definition of "a person" which allows people to consider themselves somewhat differently - IME already what their own experience is telling them. A person as a "process in relationship" perhaps? Further, if, as is often suggested, our whole early life education, family and society are to blame for contributing such that "a person" sees themselves de facto as a fixed "egoic self" who suffers because of this, then wouldn't it also be feasible that a society and early (or later even?) education could also help a person to shift perspective toward a more connected and integrated sense of being from which they experience the world? This may/likely would fall short of "enlightenment" but wouldn't it be a leg up on the "enlightenment" ladder? I'm sure we could do that quite easily. If we want people to be enlightened, why aren't we doing more? I must apologise for any incomplete arguments or lack of logic. I followed a feeling when writing this post. Hopefully it will not offend anyone either. The intent was free inquiry.

Just got. Tried for 10 (or was it more or less? No idea!) minutes today. Immediately I found I couldn't form a thought. I tried several times. Now that's funny because it made me realise some of my so-called stillness meditation must have been suppressive (i.e the opposite of this experience). Not sure. I sighed a lot. Useless smile came back on my face.

Ask permission first, it's only polite;-) Plus, apparently, unless you're invited, it won't work either. But don't go mistaking "vamping" for "sharing". I don't know what happens if you do that.

"If this were truly a transparent, grassroots movement for a NW0, I might be less concerned. But it's been a multigenerational banker & secret society-run black op spanning decades or centuries now." In which case I'd prefer to call it "Old World Order" or just plain ole "World Order".

I drew a (much) simplified version to explain my version of perception to a friend the other day but it woudn't be regular like that one if I went further with it. Despite the interlocks, it looks "binary" in some way and therefore to my mind must be "man-made".

I wonder if my mom was a zen monastery head in a past life!

I don't know what they are singing and it doesn't matter. It's very beautiful. I have it on "repeat". I wonder when it will stop. Thank you Mr Cow!

If you cultivate mindfulness-awareness (or whatever its called) with whatever you practice then you'll be charlatan-free since `63. Bearing in mind that there is perhaps also no free lunch and it's not called "practice" for nothing

"I am completely in the dark about how one can do practices without emotions coming up. It doesnt seem possible to me." THIS! I'm curious. How many men on TTB's are experiencing emotional (comfort or discomfort) that they can relate to practice? I wonder... Cat, there's been a horrible looking cow/hungry ghost thing on my bathroom mirror for over a week. Of course, it's just a smear and I can only see it when the steam from the bath hits it if I'm in the bath. But it's really ugly and I wonder why I want to see it there. It was got rid of this morning by cleaning the mirror (I didn't, someone else did). That thing in the photo looks ugly. What is it?

Xabir's allowed to believe what he wants. I think it's so hard to explain stuff like this and there are so many similarities that in many cases I just end up seeing how simultaneously awesome and awful such philosophies are. I also think that whether you place an "ego" at a personal level or at a cosmic level, you're missing the point of practice which is about your own enlightenment - which is unlikely to be that of someone else. Aren't these things supposed to be "vehicles" only anyway? Does it matter if I take a cab, a bus, a horse an ox or internet? Does it matter what colour it is?

/Kate/ reaches for her snack

Yeah, I agree that what we do for a living is a very important part of the way. Need I say "Goldman Sachs..?" In fact THAT topic would be a good one to (try) to get through on here. I would also suggest considering "work" rather than "a job". Lots of "work" doesn't involve having "a job" at all (with just one employer, I mean). In addition, many "jobs" will require specific degrees and diplomas - which is why it might be a good idea to get one as soon as possible so you don't get caught out later when it might be useful to show you have one, but preferably one with very transferable skills like research skills, social interaction, critical thinking, and I'm sure there are other suggestions. Each profession has it's own game rules. Being self-employed also has game rules but they are a bit different. If you become an employer, it gets different again. Concerning the ethics of what you choose, it might not be immediately obvious. Temple Grandin apparently worked to make dying less frightening and painful for animals in slaughter houses? Imagining onself as being to some extent outside a system. Or working against one in some way could also be an option. Of course some people do that with varying degrees of success. See Pietro's eco-war post and the comment about "handouts". "Sprituality" IMO should allow you to grow wings, a spine, balls (uh, for the guys;-) us girls have other stuff) and a heart with your feet firmly on the ground in reality.

Thanks for this interesting thread. I was really pleased to read the stuff about the alternatives. A good reason for me to come by TTB's is the often interesting analysis and criticism of various issues. For a bunch of esoteric weirdos, there's a lot of serious brain juice on here;-)

Thank you Mr Cow. I am a river;-)

Mr Cow, The analogy is excellent. May I continue? Ego would be the water saying "I am the river" without realizing (or wanting to?) the role the riverbanks or the source or the sea or the sky play in it's definition as a river. It is still of course water;-)

Very cool! Thanks!

"energy, excitement, enthusiasm, optimism, playfulness, higher sex drive, being adventurous and having a hoter body." THIS! Of course, if more men "my age" were cultivating then maybe everything would be cool At some point, no-one needs anyone leading them around Except to get across the road ;-)

Cool! I was considering that this might be one of the reasons that "internal" practitioners also often improve what would be considered "externals" as well. I'm not good enough technically but I've noticed qi-gong has actually improved my muscle tone. So perhaps such "micro-movements" are at play here. What really gets interesting for me is the subtlety and range of such "micro-movements" - I'm referring back to that post about building a skyscraper 1 sheet of paper at a time. If we consider neural "pathways" and the idea that ideas and thoughts can actually effect "physical" changes in the brain (wherever we determine it is housed;-)) then I believe such practices may be better examined by westerners from that standpoint, rather than confusing them with ideas like "chi" and certain symbols that do not have currency for them (or that cannot point to "universals") This eludes the "spirit" world, which I still wonder about.

The inner and the outer are one but the "ego" makes them not one. In other words, it "makes up" the distinction. Yes, sometimes through attaching to things or thoughts - in which case the "feeling" or movement that goes with it is pretty easy to spot. Often, I suggest it just happens just through pure conditioned pattern recognition - some of which might be sense-dependent, for example if you are colour-blind? I think (yeah, ask who I am again;-)) that there might be a temptation to assume that because this movement happens, it happens ALL the time and so there must be a situation (idealized) in which it doesn't happen. I think cultivation and insight practices help ask the question of what is in-between the arising and the attaching. What if an answer is "there doesn't have to be anything at all"! Attributing some awesome "awareness" or "universal consciousness" or "god" or anything at all to it is still a creation of our minds. But then I haven't got further than my mind yet so I'll let you know when I do;-) Oh wait, apparently I wouldn't be able to let you know because even if I do I can't speak of it because that would be (you guessed it) mind-dependent again. That's kind of handy! However, that we SHARE this "whatever is in-between" and the propensity to have things arise and the propensity to attach, well, I figure it must be a pretty "universal" human trait. But I could be wrong. I think that better communication with animals would really help us to "get" whether such a trait is also one that is shared across animal species (and why not plants too?)