Birch

This is awesome stuff. I sometimes wonder if our dear "leaders" read it. And if they do. What the hell are they doing? Also thankful I have no beard, lack grace and elevation and all the rest ;-)

Some thoughts/questions: - relates to a net/structure of some kind ? - what happens when you look at it for a long time? I was tending towards "rapid eye movement" as a reaction - could this transmute/heal/integrate like dream state? Make you forget? - what happens when you contemplate it very simply? - understanding of proportions? The circle without? - memory device (I've seen this in other yantras) for meditation where each delimited area recalls something else ?

I'd trust the kid himself. If the way the religion is taught is in any way conflicting (i.e. big gaps between dogma and what he experiences in life practice) then it will be screamingly obvious to him. Maybe if TTBs is still up by then he could read this thread;-) Things that could happen as a result of this early understanding are (IMO) dependent on the feedback he gets from his family and peers. For example, if his parents can sincerely discuss such things as "guilt" with him (and not use it to control him, which might be tempting as a tired mom or dad or if the parents don't "get it" themselves.) Besides, an abusive father/mother is an abusive father/mother, no?- I'm not sure how much religion plays in that. We could find out? So, if I was an uncle (which I'm obviously not;-)) I would just be there for him. May I suggest under no circumstances should your own desire to indoctrinate (or counter-indoctrinate) take precedence. The family may already be waiting for you on that corner and I don't see the conflict as worth anything really. I don't mean for this suggestion to take away from all the awful things that have been done in the name of this religion, nor all the good things. In fact a frank discussion on TTB's on some of the Catholic stuff would be really interesting to me. There's something going on in the Pit right now. I was "raised"(cough cough) vaguely Protestant and knew I was already going to hell before I was 10. It can only get better after that;-) I always figured the Catholic stuff to be prettier, more passionate, sexier even.

Umberto Eco suggests in more recent essays something similar.

I answered MCO and Kundalini. Practice that triggered (apart from specific life path): - Sun salutes and chakra meditations as an attempt to self-heal (hahahahahaha) Practices that helped and smoothed things out (relatively;-)) : - KAP, - compassion, - mindfulness, - acceptance, - acupuncture, - physical grounding Results: - lots of ego drop off. - not quite sure what is going on - loss of certain desires - better understanding of some things related to people - major emotional upheaval - "higher" intellectual functioning - quieter mind (this is relative, ok;-)?) - yey for now - banality

I think a major danger in the idea of NWO is the idea that no-one can do anything "against" it because it is so overarching, world-embracing. So this idea leads to pessimism and inaction when in fact personal optimistic action could be an avenue of combat of such a thing (should it even exist). And I second Markern's suggestion to get an education on such matters before getting worked up about them. Get worked up after you've understood. Other than that, I haven't spent enough time on it to understand. From an emotional point of view, I feel something that isn't good, but I'm not a clear channel so I wouldn't put much stock in it.

What does it have to do with "God"?

If it's in the water over there, it's in the the water here too. May I humbly request we sell each other other stuff? Thank you!

Alright. The word exists, yes. I keep mistaking words for things (and many ideas are in fact just words). The stepping out thing, yup. Not entirely there (yet).

I just ordered. It's a fun looking thing.

Oh I just write stuff that seems to want to be written sometimes. Other times I write stuff I want to write (for a variety of reasons, some of them to show off;-) plus I like you guys, you're smart! "Unconsciousness" - still looking at that one. Who made it up? Can we describe it before we give it a name? I'm taking a leaf from Apech's book about applying the term to the situation, rather than the other way around. Oh, of course, there's a biggy of a problem with that idea, but it might be worth doing? This stuff sucks.

"in the outer world time is inexorable, we have no choice about that." What kind of time do you mean? - Clock time? - Felt time? - Linear process-y time? - Linguistic time? (disclaimer: possibly arbitrary categories) On the other thing, seems those "Shaman" (oh to take one term and apply it to all, the irony) can "tunnel" in some way between streams of consciousness. I don't know a great deal about it and I would like to. I'm thinking it's infintely easier to "do" if you are in the same space as those you wish to impress your tunneling capacity on, oh, plus double if they believe you can do it. Double plus double if you've provided same with ritual and consciousness-altering substance (doesn't have to be heavy.) Double down again if you also have "killed" using such techniques (whether this be animals for food or enemies). And if you can do weirdo stuff like slow your heartbeat and enter different states of consciousness at will, well even better! I thought I did it once or twice without really wanting to, suddenly I was looking through the dog's eyes as he plunged around in the park, another time I was the rolling bird in the air, for a split second. So maybe you're on to something with this subconsciousness thing.

So I'm basically making all this up? The me-ness as well? It sounds to me like another case of human vanity to attribute awareness and consciousness to everything. I'm looking at the global results right now and it's hardly pretty. I'm not making the trees up, nor do I make the oceans up, nor do I make anyone else up. Certainly I will make up ideas about all of these things. Sometimes my ideas are strong enough that other people will believe me. Sometimes they're strong enough I believe them myself;-) To some extent, I feel I need to make up ideas about things to be able to function. It's an application and doesn't imply necessity to believe it's more (or less) than that. If necessary, I will adopt new applicative techniques when I can see they're useful (and alright, maybe also some just for fun and out of curiosity and the desire for virtuosity ;-)) Which is another reason IMO and IME that discussing "high attainments" when one doesn't have them (yet?) is problematic. It confuses the hell out of me. Especially if the intent is to effect a new belief or system of such on those who are IMO somewhat courageously attempting to eliminate the old ones from themselves and haven't quite digested the after effects yet. That would be highly unethical IMO.

"our awareness points out to us the extraordinary fact that we actually exist" Ever see that Matrix movie where the lead suddenly starts "flexing" and the space around him flexes and sort of distorts and ripples out? This is the thing I consider the me-ness, it's the me-ness that spins my orbits (I know because I can stop doing it) and writes these lines. Saying it is "not me" seems bizarre. It's just a delay in cognition as far as I can tell. I suggest "ego" is a misunderstanding of the delay.

Hello mr Cow! You said "I am just wondering if this possibility will diminish as one become more attuned, or more aware of these 'strings' that are pulling at us?" I am so unsure but I believe at one point there is a growing sensation of free will as I feel the pull and go against it. Very much earlier, i recall Todd writing he "leaned in" (or similar) and I can figure a person riding a motorcycle (Mal?) as an explanation. And so I continue, my further understanding of "free will" is that it is so rare. I suspect often it just doesn't matter as such, that what I take it for is often simply a strain against myself, an enforcing of duality . "I want this", "I am like that", "Not like this", "Here we are" I don't consider this bad at all. But knowing you have free will, when it matters. I would suggest this is a good definition and use of it.

I'm very tempted to say things (albeit couched in seeming erudition and historical justifications) to explain away my own desires. Yet I feel like saying something, although I might be swayed later into justification on other terms. IME, when the guy hits 35 (more or less), his butt and his gut often end up hitting the floor (close enough) and he doesn't realize what this might do to a woman's desire. Younger guys tend to be in shape. In fact on the whole in much better shape mentally and physically. I like that MUCH better I guess it depends on all kinds of things, not least on where you live. Mr Jk, your reality seems somewhat different from mine (and reading your posts makes me very happy about that;-)) This being said, I have often shied from older men because I didn't see myself in the caretaker role in our older years. Plus they often thought they knew best. I have one dad, don't want (or need) another one.

"To make a hand in the place of a hand is to realize feeling in the hand as consciousness of the hand impacts the stretch in existence at the moment." Thanks Mark. It's an almost awesome transition to another (at least 2) threads I wanted to open: - There is a feeling of "me-ness" even when thoughts are gone. WTF is up with that? - Ok, I start to understand that "no thought" does not = "no-mind" But "no-mind" is only something I have read about. Apart from Daniel Ingram (sp?) can anyone more or less point one what "no-mind" means and why no-me ought to go there? Will it help "i"? If so, how? Still on topic, earlier on today I tried to explain some of this stuff by drawing some stuff. I think it helps. Even if many TTB's don't "get" Chinese (or other) characters, I sometimes wonder if we're not often missing out on opportunities to share because of the language constraint? I know there's a Chinese forum here but I can't understand Chinese.

John! How can "I" be a "non-dualist"?????? I just thought of that one. Please congratulate-I because I think it might appreciate I ;-) Of course if I'm wrong, it will be very upset, but nevertheless a bit proud as I thought it came up with that one all by I-self. You know, at some point IMO the "bigger" people than I has to take some part of responsibility for I. Why? Of course I may be wrong (as I tends to me without the other perspective) - whether a big I or an eye for an eye. ----rational commentary: That sounds weird.

Dude! it just fell upon me that MAYBE Jesus actually said (and fie upon me in the past life if I got it wrong- just sinning;-)) "When you accept the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner" However I'm starting to dig that he probably did mean "make" but to me that seems further away than our present discussion, so maybe we can leave that part till later?

"There is a time for everything under the sun" Or something;-) As an old person not in college, I feel the best way is to be moderate. From TCM perspective, I'd be interested in what "moderate" could mean in actual units (and what kind of drink exactly) There was a thread on it here somewhere. From a neurological perspective, I suspect it takes less to drop inhibitions than we think, which seems to me to be one of the goals of drinking. I don't have the data on neurological effects but I suspect too much would affect learning (not college-friendly around exam time) There are also some websites proning "harm reduction" rather than total abstinence. How you drink (and what you do when doing it, like not driving for example, or practicing safe-sex.) You may also get culturally-flavoured responses;-) Given I suspect you're not sitting down with a large lunch and a glass or two of wine like is found to be acceptable in some places in Europe and a sin in some places in North America;-)

It makes sense to me. As follows: It's when I start to engage deeper with the people in those settings that the trouble starts;-) Remember that Sting song (or maybe it was the Police) about how the "Russians love their children too"? The deeper I go, the more and the less words simultaneously mean, the more I "get" "Kama, Artha, Dharma, and Moksha" and a whole bunch of other things. The more "the world" hurts, when I know the "world" only exists as I/we have collectively decided it (and in some cases enforced on others to their detriment). In practical terms, I think the change in perspective translates into everyday actions and attitudes which may or may not be actually coherent to the other people around, which is IMO where a lot of the upheaval lies. If you're referring to other effects, let me know which ones;-) Another poster mentioned not being able to stand too much music or reading. I went through a phase of that, where I could not physically stand any music or movies (especially the ones with lots of violence.) I still can't stand TV. Buying clothes is a nightmare. Trying to decide what kind of work to get involved with, another nightmare. Certain people just drain me. I will often opt for solitude instead of company. Which IMO is not a good way to go either! At some level, this could seem like depression, and yet I'm not depressed! I think the key is to adapt your life slowly.Just IMO.

"I have given up most activities I enjoyed :-" "plus phd-student life is very isolated." Why did you give up the enjoyable activities? I think that the second issue could set anyone off. In fact, don't people do that on purpose? Go into solitude? I guess if you are no longer constantly surrounded by people, you end up with yourself? Then you find out which parts really are you? In your shoes (which I'm not, obviously) I'd cut a deal with Shakti and ask her to tone it down when I need to "get stuff done" (it's a "first chakra" thing, she'll get it, unless you're being untrue to yourself in your pursuit of your PHD, in which case I have no idea what will happen) Other suggestions for "grounding" here are very good. The supplements stuff, I guess I'd rather get food from food, but maybe you don't have time to eat well either? I suspect she doesn't dig that.

An ongoing great thread of interest about K (which I refer to with pride at it being the first letter of my screen-name as well as the first letter of something else;-)) John, I hate to be silly as usual, but the outside IS the inside. The "K" IMO (not humble opinion) is the realisation of that fact whereas I'd spent my life imagining something else (maybe the opposite? or a mix of the two? or a flipping around of the whole thing until I fall over? Again ) Here's what's coming on for me on better days. Other days I get into dissonance and it's not fun until I remind myself what I'm playing at. The world is yours. A great big show you are having for yourself. Unfortunately the ticket price is often toxic. K makes it sweeter, but you can't change the world, unless you change. AND, the outside is still there and it also belongs to everyone else's insides. Which is where it gets complicated if you're all new. Dino Buzzati has a short story about it. I believe it's called "The K" (no kidding;-)) and it's following you, just behind the stern of your ship and you fear it, and all the other sailors fear it and it wants to give you something. Edited to correct author reference: Dino Buzzati NOT Italo Calvino!

My opinion only;-) I suggest it gets easier if you "drop yourself" on a daily basis. Not the "new" one, for that one is really quite important! Precious even! I mean the other one. I think (here we go again, but I'll do it anyway, my 5E analysis suggests no biggie ) that it's also dubious to start attempting to "overtrain" the new one in particular directions based solely on the "other" one's perceived shortcomings or desires (psi-training to get the girl/boy? Anyone?) Another reason that "self-development" gurus are making large wads of cash these days...not to mention PUA;-) but I'm almost OT. What I mean is if you feel a definite pull towards (or away from) some discipline (or place, or person, or food, or whatever) or practice then it's worth looking at what that pull is. Is it oldself tugging on your (own/old?) strings? Mom's desire for you? Dad's fear of success? Why? I think good basics (back to foundational practices again, man these are great!) that will stand anyone in good stead regardless of what is thrown at you as you do this - so at the very least you won't be slinging it at yourself;-) Also, what the other folks said;-) I love that we're talking about it. It's weird but not THAT weird really.

Congratulations Witch!