Birch

The 'Christianity as enthogen practice' folks would be on their erses laughing at this one Mr GranP. Then there's that 'Toronto Church' stuff.

I don't understand the question Snowmonki. I don't think 'obsession' is especially healthy. 'Drive' is offered as a 'positive' quality. 'Most' of the texts I've read on 'enlightenment' say outright that a person must want it more than anything else. But I don't know if that means that it's a requirement or whether there's something missing. I have interpreted it to mean that most people say they want 'enlightement' when what they really want are things like peace, happiness, good-fortune, awesome charisma, superhuman health etc (and that would just be me, oh my f&ck, did I just admit to awfully self-serving desires?) No, I don't think it's healthy to be obsessed.

Jetsun, I started this one but have put it aside for now http://www.amazon.com/Self-Therapy-Step-By-Step-Wholeness-Cutting-Edge-Psychotherapy/dp/0984392777/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353117270&sr=8-1&keywords=IFS

http://www.amazon.com/dp/159420411X And http://www.amazon.com/Four-Pillars-Destiny-Potential-Career/dp/1469700042/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353117137&sr=1-5&keywords=Bazi They sort of go together.

This map business. I'm wondering about it. Is there a point at which one can reliably say with full knowledge that no more maps are required and that one is going to start making them oneself rather than following anyone else's? What I've noticed about Sadguru and Mark Griffin is that they are often 'meta-commentators' on things, providing a somewhat-structured 'empty of concept' space into which people can rush while still feeling somewhat supported. But that's just another opinion of mine.

Hanging around on TTB's seemed to confirm the 'only way is through' idea. The ideas of 'dark night', 'detox', and the more recent from Mark Griffin at Hardlight on kundalini 'Wait, you mean I'm going to feel worse?' (to paraphrase). I won't get into physical symptoms, I will however get into 'social' issues briefly. IME increasing awareness lead me to look at social behaviour very differently. At one point I found I couldn't stand the constant posturing, the 'say one thing, believe another, act another' that I perceived all around me. People whose company I had enjoyed became barely tolerable. One of the reasons it did was because as awareness grew, the less I tolerated being talked down to, or flaked on, or taken advantage of. In the process of standing up for myself, several people had pretty intense reactions and the relationships ended. I've never felt more lonely. And there's never been anything better for me. In other words, my suggestion is that the measure for social issues ought to be taken before, during and after progress in qi-gong. But clearly, my 'problems' were already there before I started.

No, it's this guy http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=viggo+mortensen&hl=fr&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&biw=1199&bih=664&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnslo&tbnid=sSpTNCfNAF3EjM:&imgrefurl=http://www.brego.net/&docid=-RvhY09EDhpYJM&imgurl=http://www.brego.net/imglib/pageimage/pageimage_imginfo_2.jpg&w=188&h=222&ei=nXihUI7hLYaw2QW-t4CADw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=499&vpy=376&dur=3356&hovh=177&hovw=150&tx=128&ty=95&sig=109263395698613713719&page=1&tbnh=154&tbnw=133&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:19,s:0,i:192

I kind of worship Viggo Mortensen :-) Represents sexy Viking dude. WebRep currentVote noRating noWeight

I think it's fine to criticize 'folk beliefs' as long as it gets one to also check one's own out of the corner of one eye. Otherwise a pointless exercise IME/IMO. However, that's just the 'nice to have' part of it. Here's a bunch of videos of something going down with a Tibetan deity and the DL. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dali+lama+and+shugden&oq=dali+lama+and+shugden&gs_l=youtube.3...45099.47884.0.48264.7.7.0.0.0.0.1074.1534.0j1j1j7-1.3.0...0.0...1ac.1.jVmZyXKTDLU

You have to work that one out yourself Mr GranP:-)

De_paradise, I'm interested in it because it happened to me too and I like to read others thoughts on 'what I should've done' instead of what I actually did do. No, more interesting in this discussion is how other people are like a foil for many 'things of the self' and the relationship between the way people treat you 'on the outside' and how you feel about yourself 'on the inside'. If the OP had stronger (or 'more accurate') sense of self (and not as some 'lesser' being in comparison to whoever) this 'event' would not be one. There could be any number of reasons for the girl's flakiness but the one that the OP would get the 'best bang for his buck' dealing with would (as others have suggested) be the 'internal' one. Bearing in mind that the 'internal one' likely has it's origin elsewhere, and finding where that is could be a potent accelerator. I'm not knocking mindfulness BTW but cessation is just cessation. It's self-limiting. Doesn't help unless you do it constantly IME. What has helped me immensely has been understanding where these ideas about self originated. ---opinion alert---

Righto:-) Not you:-) Possibly some other people?

Heard that before:-) What time, what place, what audience? Ur, assuming it's not you on this thread, right now?

True. Also true that some of it (not all of it) just highlights some thing in their absolute ridiculousness. I reckon that's the part of GB humor I like. The 'show no mercy on anyone' part. At his heyday Eddie Murphy f*ckin stang like a wasp (didn't die afterwards). We could do a 'humor' thread and see what TTB's find what funny. 'Can we laugh at everything?' could be an awesome thread. 'Why do we laugh'? Another excellent topic title. 'Laughing yoga' - stupid practice or not?

Hurrumph. I'm with the Marblehead on this one so far. The Stosher has a few points I could get behind but I agree, if we're going to talk about 'free will' might be worth defining where (and if) it starts (and if) it stops. I'll go first me hearties: - I did NOT choose to be born

Yeah, I've started to get into that one, but it's a helluva tricky topic. I'd be up for it though Mr MH.

Does anyone have a decent book reference on karma. Not a new age re/mis interpretation. Thanks!

I would suggest not mixing all these things up at the same time. I would suggest that with time and practice, all of these things will take their 'correct' places and you will be able to recognize what and why they are. I'm with the 'ignore scenery' people, until you decide it's something you want. But that's just what I've decided. Had you been following a traditional shaman, they'd likely teach you the proper way. IMO/IME TTB's isn't very 'shamanic'.

All very fine Mr Lucky, but Mr Parsons did just say that 'it happened' to him and that no amount of anything anywhere near what he calls 'seeking' will do it. Just as much as this happens to ex-Mr Tony Parsons, just as much other things happen to Mr Lucky7, Mr T_I and (I suppose, because I'm still quite happy to believe in myself (an option BTW, but that too has been hard-won) happen to me. Anyway, point being, you can look at Mr ex-Parsons and criticize Mr T_I with the same breath.

"Anyone who cultivates without a teacher has a fool for a student." Which has often been meself Mr GranP. Not to sound all techno on you but I do expect online to be a pretty big vector of learning for cultivation for some time yet. So IMO, it would be a pretty good idea for good teachers to hang out where those students happen to be. If anything, just to help people avoid typical newb cultivation mistakes and not hurt themselves. Seems the TTB's does quite well at it:-)

Locally-speaking no. Non-locally-speaking, I agree with you. Very recently I had an experience that I thought brought me closer to understanding motivations for murder but it didn't bring me any closer to action. In some respects our mind being somewhat separated from our bodies might not be so bad. Continuum Mr Sinan.

I love it when Mr Cow gets nasty:-)

I haven't gotten further than page 4 of this thread but I wanted to immediately shout out a 'right on' to Mr Jeff for his explanation of path from (what seems like) the other side of it. Getting caught up in the artefacts of path is one sure way to screw it up for everyone. BUT. All versions of what seems like the same path. So i guess that many (most?) people would then conclude 'Ah, many paths, all leading to Rome', or 'Same paths up the mountain'. All that says to me is that very similar conclusions have been reached via various approaches. Does not make it true, just makes it a more reachable conclusion. Indeed, a path led you here, you did not come here without one. ---just saying---

As much as I prefer to rely on my gut, I do know that when my head is interfering with whatever's coming from there, chances are I'm getting something wrong as well as something right about the situation. I would also try to find out as much as possible before taking any action. This, obviously, imagining I'm not in immediate physical danger, in which case I really can't say what I'd suggest. Revenge to me is what I should have done at the time but couldn't so ends up being pointless after the fact. Also, please try to avoid doing anything that gets you hurt or in jail.

Hehehe;-) I was thinking the other day that your fortune tellers were doing a handy service in the latest in psychotherapy at a smidgen of the price:-) Randi seems to be a bit of an old bugger. However, on the continuum of magical everything, I'd rather see people learning about things and (you know that old saw) 'empowering' themselves than depending on falsers. I don't see a problem with explicitating phenomenae, as long as this is not more mystification in the guise of something else. Like 'science' or 'rationalism' just to cherrypick. Hence my 'read carefully' suggestion:-)