Birch

'thousands of years of conditioning' Could you talk more about the thousands of years? Thanks!

Ooh I like THIS!

Now I'm really upset. What did I answer wrong?

T_I, that's a lot of good stuff to discuss. I reckon a few threads could be started for each of your paragraphs. Or you could find the ones on here that discuss them and open them back up? What I've already seen done about 'bad gurus' is some kind of web-presence (used to be books) where the practices etc could be called into question. I wouldn't call the person into question unless the 'guru' is running a cult with life-endangering practices, like the sweat-lodge person whose incompetence ended up in the death of a 'client'. I reckon that ought to be acted upon in a more active manner - but I'm not sure exactly what that 'action' would be. It sounds like what's going on here could unfortunately be dismissed as students doing the practices wrong, and/or some kind of sour grapes on your part. Aside that people are consenting adults and allowed to go on retreats and party - that's called a 'vacation' in my book and why not if it's cheaper at the ashram and you can pay by sweeping the floor a couple of hours per day? Hell, I'd pretend to be a nun to get cheap room and board in some places:-) If kids are involved, I think it gets into more legislated territory, but then look at Scientology and Sunday school... What do you want to do about it?

That's a tough one IMO. If other people's limitations bother you. I don't know why they should, they still definitely belong to the other people for as long as the latter will accept holding on to them. I guess I ought to add a caveat about conscious acceptance, these days I wonder what mechanisms are in play to hold so many things unconscious (I could go on a rant about media, but here I am using one...) Where I do get mucho miffed is when other people insist I should adopt their limitations when I have quite enough of my own that I'm doing - mostly my best, although not always- to rid myself of thanks. And they can do that in so many wonderous ways, right down to knocking you off the face of the planet This makes me hope that reincarnation is real Note I'm not talking about 'limits' in terms of respect for others BTW, just in case that gets confused which IMO/IME a lot of 'spiritual' people do. I'm guessing that if someone isn't waking up right this minute then there is a reason for that. The above mechanisms aside, it might be to help them survive a particular passage in time (like the ego-shell did in childhood), it might be that that particular shell is needed to help others. I don't know, but I like thinking about it. Nice to see you on TTB's Susan:-) I'm almost sure that if you told the 'right' people they'd get it

Oh no. There are no Taoists 'out there' they're 'in there' as far as I know. This one (I will answer the questions after so Chi-Dragon can judge whether I am one or not) is 'in here' as well. 1 .What are the qualities of a Taoist....??? - anything that increases consciousness of specific types 2. What is the first quality to be expected in a Taoist...??? - that you wouldn't notice they are one right away, unless I guess if you went to a temple 3. If you want to be a Taoist, what do you need to do to become one...??? - I understand there are quite a few different types. Each way will have its teachers and stuff to learn. 4. If you think that you are a Taoist now, what makes you think that you are one...??? - Hmm, I like the stuff that is covered by 'Taoism'. Am I a Taoist? Not by external standards, nor internal standards I fear. 5. Since you have thought that you are a Taoist, did you follow all the principles or have you ever violated any of these principles....??? - I wasn't paying proper attention to 5E and San Niang and that almost got me nixed on a couple of occasions. But like I said another day, I'm a rotten Taoist.

Haven't seen it, although it sounds muy tempting;-) Yes, my small experience with withdrawal from so-called 'anti-depressants' was highly depressing. The companies that make them should sell after-care, or damn well give it away for free, given their profits off the top of people's suffering. I reckon being conscious of it and what's (potentially) involved can take you a long way but I also reckon there are probably good things to eat and do to take care of yourself. Hopefully some other TTB's will have relevant (and adapted) suggestions, given it's only a temporary thing.

I read a nice thing the other day about power just being the ability to get people to do things that you want them to do. You can do it in ways that force people, threaten them with punishment, make them fear loss. You can do it in ways that influence people, encourage them, open them up to things they will enjoy, that they find interesting. And then today, someone sent me a video of a strange 'shamaness' that pretty much said similar, although she had a bit of the Mr MH trickstery to her.

Would it help if I suggested all realities are slightly different depending on where you're experiencing them from/in? I'm not even sure there's a 'left/right' brain separation that that's so clean cut. We call it that ( like we call paths left and right) but at some point IME there is a world to be etched on top of the real one or in tangled interaction with the real one. That real one is mystical, frogs in ponds stuff. TaoMeow knows her brain chem :-). Congrats for dumping the Prozac. I don't have much experience with that but I was a very short-term Paxil user and it was 'Castaneda'-ish in terms of withdrawal. But if you've been through Kundalini, IMO you can handle this too:-)

I dunno T_I. Even on here there has been discussion about the dangers and validity of 'head-based' qi-gong. Generally speaking I've seen it advised to attempt that stuff only after having gained some ability to sink/ground chi and with various 'locks' in place (the good ttbs can correct me here about tongue to palate being considered a lock or not.) Anyway, as I already mentioned, the AYP is a 'single teacher'-run setup whereas other forums (including ttbs) are multiple-teacher/peer-practioner type setups. It's possible IMO that AYP forumers read this one as well as other stuff. Are you concerned about people in particular over at AYP T_I?

Hahaha. Now you go put those beliefs of yours away. Go see Fu Ye on the other thread and quit threatening to do something with all that:-)

I hadn't seen that vid Snowmonki but it did remind me of a vid RV posted showing one of her teachers 'freeform'. AND that reminded me of Umike's post about fascia/collagen (leptin;-))

That's an interesting POV. I have never experienced such a thing as 'raw consciousness' (shiva?), but I kind of 'get it' through practice plus the hypothesis is interesting) Also considering that much 'conditioning' seems to be 'passed on down the line' as it were (or 'across' if I'm referring to 'cultural conditioning'). I dunno, I'd tend also to throw in that 'karma' is an expression in interaction with 'raw consciousness'. (Shakti?) It's sort of romantic (as in 'like a story' to imagine that the 'raw' consciousness has some kind of unbinding action on the karma.

Edit: double post

I thought that was interesting about 'sad' being 'about' pain and not pain itself (many a happy masochist may be reading). That means to me that as creatures (beings, if you like) with consciousness of our conditions, well that 'consciousness of' likely has some function/use - otherwise we wouldn't have it. Or maybe it had a use, now no longer applicable like the appendix. Or maybe it is useful until you grow your third eye or something. Or maybe it's a compensating function because many people's third eyes have been closed. I dunno.

Oh, this is bad. I feel compelled to rush in on behalf of Stosh to say something. I shouldn't do that. Should I? Anyway, it's not an insult I'm going to suggest Et. But I was wondering whether you were going to hit me over the head with flowery goodness for a while there

Stress can cause weight gain, apparently. As can lack of sleep, apparently. As can, malnutrition (in the sense of 'food that is lacking in it'), apparently. All of the stuff about the above is available online. The 'obvious' stories I've read about talismans working to effect changes was when they were used as focal points for intent (or intention, I never know which word to use). There are also 'less obvious' ways in which they can work. At some point was discussed on here the noticing of symbols intended for 'unconscious' workings. In other words, the symbols 'work' unconsciously but you have to know they're there in the first place. Whether or not you have to know what they are or what they represent is a different story IMO/IME and how that part works is mystical enough for me.

Adding the caveat that I am not a scientist (sounds like far too much hard work) I did have a sudden idea (well, not so sudden, I had it a while back due to practice and then it struck again with this thread)... that the 'energy' (or at least its sensation, per the suggestion to Apech on the other thread about measurement) is created between two (I suppose more than two is doable as well) points of attention. It reminded me of the two poles of a battery (and here's where I get mired in the details and will likely misunderstand and potentially misrepresent because the batteries I have are large acid batteries and not complex chemical/hormonal (which I call chemicals, but I'm likely wrong) structures. Anything, anything?

Isn't that kind of fun! We could dispute electricity:-)

" ecstatically dysfunctional." I found this really important. Thanks Seth and Susan for your great replies!

Oh I wouldn't just go believing everything one is told. Anyway, 2 things here. I was dancing around with the words on purpose and trying to explain what I was doing while I was doing it. Looks like I didn't do too well with that. 2nd thing, "funny" was referring to the way my final phrase contradicted what I'd said previously. If you are going to quote, I think quoting the whole thing is best. If you don't quote the whole thing then I fear it may be misundertood as referring to my finding sarcasm funny.

Stosh, that was what I call a 'drive by' insult. In other words, you 'drove by' my post and took it for yourself I understand The 'some people' quip was not intended for you but to illustrate passive agression... So I guess passive agression 'works' but perhaps too broadly and drags sensitive people into feeling slighted when they aren't the target. Anyway, once I'd written the part about being passive agressive, I thought that part didn't stand out enough so I pointed to it, then I looked at that pointing and I found it sarcastic (because that's what I was purposely doing with it). And then I found it funny that by saying more I ended up contradicting what I'd already said. The final part was a sort of a 'meta-comment' on how unfunny it ended up being. Anyway, no rejection of any kind intended. The idea being if I wanted to I'd just come out and say it (although I might not say f-off:-)) NY, eh? Nice!

Do you mean detect the effects of qi? What I mean is the measuring instruments don't measure the 'thing' itself but its effects (we think/hope). Could qi cause a variation in a magnetic field? If so, doesn't mean qi is electricty. That sort of thing. You tend to be good at this scientific logic stuff Apech IMO.

I'd personally go get an acupuncture session. Posture came to mind but I'm not good with that stuff.

Would you like a link to the web pages where the correct grammatical use of the 'f-word' is in question:-) As discussed with another TTB sometime this week, 'we humans' (assumed) have this incredible capacity to lie, to make things up, to say things in the place of other things, to use jargon, to use slang, turns of phrase. I'm personally more interested in the way things are, not the way they are presented, even nicely wrapped, or especially well-framed towards any particular single direction. In fact the latter makes me sniff a bit (here I am tempted to underline what I'm saying with a chosen comedy-sketch, but I doubt some people would get it). Apologies for the passive-agressive stance in the concluding sentence. Apologies for the intentional sarcasm in the previous sentence. Oh wait, now the just before previous phrase is no longer the concluding sentence, haha That wasn't funny.----deadpan----