Uroboros
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Everything posted by Uroboros
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Rene- Aww!! You dont want to use ancient chinese secret war strategy to save 1 dollar?! Then what use is it?! hahaha. My current Sun Tzu translation is by Ralph Sawyer. Its a compendium of seven military classics of China. Its a pretty good translation, based on a few others I read. is it the most accurate? no idea! The other books are- Tai Kungs Secret Teachings The Methods of Ssu- Ma Wu-Tzu Wei Liao-Tzu Three Strategies of Huang Shih-kung Questions and Replies between Tang Tai-tsung and Li Wei-kung. Its nice because he gives historical background for each one so you have an idea as to why they were written and by whom. Tai Kungs Secret Teachings is quite interesting, I feel. Peace.
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To get thru toll booths all you gots to do is time your self so that when the person in front of you pays and goes thru, as they are passing and the bar is falling, you slide in right behind them.. Much skill is needed. Obviously, Sun Tzu was a fan of such methods. Hahaha. Peace.
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Rene- Great points! I had forgotten how much Sun Tzu talked about flow and timing, harmonious interaction with the environment/ manifestations. To win before acting. In my own experience, timing has made a huge difference. Some things are far easier when you move at the time that is best for that thing. The subtleties of nature. Many aspects are def. Aikido. Using their own force against them. Using the least effort to effect the largest change. Understanding the environment and then interacting with it. How to work with/ use the people. Its all very interesting and taoist'y. Gosh, I need to read it again. haha.
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MB- I think of deception as having a different understanding of yin/yang. Of perceptions and reality. Plenty of things in life are easier to do if you know how to step on fewer toes. how to walk in the midst of the crowd without bumping into anyone. NAJA- saying that war is always evil seems like a denial of yin/yang. There is always good within bad. Bad within good. War is a part of the cycles in the level of change. war is a large destruction manifestation. Much good can come from that. Thing is, like many things, people tend to focus so much on their own feelings of pain and their own troubles, they cannot see the larger ramifications. How the destruction works within the whole of existence. Its a common phenomenon. Something bad happens, suddenly, god is dead or nonexistent or doesnt care, life is horrible, etc. Denying the destruction aspect of life, can make it much harder to see the creation. Harder to penetrate and see the inner weavings of manifestations. Some thoughts. Peace.
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It is a fantastic read! Much wisdom in it. Its not just for war, though.... I love one of the first things that is said. The art of war is the path of deception... That is such a deep subject to go into. I feel like the principles within it, the few I am aware of atm, are near universal. Peace.
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Marblehead- Oh, im sure its not easy. Otherwise everyone would know about it! You have to read the stories and open your mind to perceive the wisdom within it, eh. Oh yes. Being "grown up" is way more fun. I was making a pinnochio reference, though..... Peace.
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CD- Ahh, thats good to know! A mistranslation, eh. Which translation is more accurately translated, then? Immortals...Humans....I hope they go into what the differences are later. Marblehead- Ohh, real people! I want to be a real boy! hehe. Hmm...so just read what is written and try and grasp the concepts...without inferring anything more. Gotcha. So, then, they have talked about duality, relativity...perceptions. Good stuff. The concepts do transfer well to many situations...words are limited. Peace.
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I feel like the structure is important. The concepts and stories were put in a certain order, possibly for a reason. If we skip the order, we may miss key points to understand the later principles/ concepts. Build the foundation and all that jazz. Peace.
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It sounds like so far, he is opening questions and laying the foundation for larger, piercing questions... In one part he speaks of Master Lieh who rides the wind and about one who mounts the ether of heaven and earth, the 6 elemental energies of the seasons. In that section there is some talk of sages and one who waits upon nothing. Not sure if by wait he means actual manifestations or death. So far, I dont see him out right challenging the practices of prolonging life. He has challenged many judgements and perceptions. Actually, he may have put a slight jab at those who feel they are enlightened without finding their root....Its subtle.
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Lin- I really enjoyed your recent talks- Understanding Detachment and Transforming Adversity. I am still listening to the newest one, Ending Re-Birth in One Lifetime. Just wanted to let you know that your effort is enjoyed and valued. I feel that those two talks, Detachment and Adversity, go well together.... Listening helped me refine my understanding of both and how to use detachment to transform adversity. So often, I forget that perceptions/ judgements are so malleable. I appreciate the reminder. Hehe, whenever you get around to doing the TTC commentary, I will listen! Every talk you have done has been excellent. Thanks again! Peace.
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Stosh- I do enjoy the As Above, So Below, As within, So without principle.... That does seem to be the thing about many of the Taoist texts...The forms change yet the substance (principle) does not. Seeing and experiencing that is the hard part, I feel. Perspective...there it is again...hmm
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IF WATER is not heaped up deep enough, it will not have the strength to support a big boat. Upset a cup of water in a cavity, and a straw will float on it as if it were a boat. Place a cup in it, and it will stick fast; – the water is shallow and the boat is large. (So it is with) the accumulation of wind; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support great wings. Here they are speaking of relativity in way. About how the quantity of a substance interacts with another thing. Hm...not just comparisons but also interactions. This may also be tying into doing just the right amount at the right time. To float the water must be deep and wide enough to carry the boat, the wind must be great enough to lift the peng... Edit- It also seems to be talking about the effort it requires to do things. Small effort for small things, large effort for large things... Explaining that to carry the sky on your back, to fly across the world for 6 months, requires "great wind".
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We know what we are doing?!!? I have no idea what im doing! Im just.....doing...sorta.. OK, i will go into the chapter again and see what else is in it surrounding those principles. Rene- thank you! I will read your article and keep it in mind. The path of not putting effort/ energy into the ego. Thats what I found interesting. I find lots of things interesting since im curious by nature. Its just that I see few people who truly just...pay no mind to the mind. HAH! I crack my self up.....
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Pythagoreanfulllotus- You say that it takes allot of jing to create qi.... What is the quality of the jing you speak of? Pre natal/ post natal? If it takes so much jing to make qi...that makes little sense to me if jing is supposed to be highly condensed, potent, qi... It should then take a small amount of jing to make lots of qi. If the conversion is efficient enough. And if it takes allot of jing to make qi, then wouldnt we run out much faster then we do? What type of shen are you speaking of? Since we already have shen whether we ejaculate or have sex, how can it require celibacy to create it? Peace.
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Rene- Hm...I dont remember yin/ yang being spoken of explicitly in my translation of the TTJ....Yet the principles were there...in some places...I will have to go back and look again. I look forward to seeing what ZZ said and meant....understanding the view point and message. I think its interesting that you chose to take that path, Rene. Stosh- Oh, im not offended. At all. Maybe the playful-ness of my response did not come thru? Patience!!! My old foe....we meet again. Rene- Yea...Sometimes I go nowhere and sometimes I run off into the sunset and fall into quicksand.
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Aww, Marblehead! You dont want to ponder the questions with me? Oh well. I will share whatever I happen to come upon. Ohhh, questions are my bread and butter. Good questions help the finding of good answers...sometimes. Perception is incredibly powerful and intricate...I often ponder the question- if something is not perceived, does it exist? so far, I am at the point of- Since everything I know or think or experience is thru my awareness/ perception....Then no. Now I want to find out whats behind the perception....muaahahhah! (dramatic) Relativity....Where does unity come into play? Wholeism... Both instead of either. Ok, I think im getting off track here. I shall get back on ZZ. Peace.
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Marblehead- Im glad my mind droppings are helpful and add some spices! Tis quite a bit of fun to discuss such things. to understand more about it. Ohh...the ego put in its proper place, left to its own devices does its original job..... How funny would it be if enlightenment and such was that simple.. Stop holding onto the ego and it can then do whats its supposed to do and you can be what you naturally are.....
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Marblehead- Yep, if we feel they dont fit, them we let it go! It takes so little effort to go into a direction and see whats there...then let it go if its not what we need. Very often, in my experience, the distraction IS the piece I needed. Hah! Life has been funny that way for me. Relativity is everywhere!!!! like a ghost in the mist. Spontaneity is a great thing! At times. (relativity)
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Rene- I do love the way of looking at it from open-mindedness and closed mindedness. That has always been a big deal to me. Expanding, staying open...Life is just more fun that way. So, are you saying that LZ flips between Yin/ Yang to Yang/ Yin to show how they go both ways but the ZZ does not as often? You read all of my posts?! Whoa...Thank you for the compliment! I do tend to consider my self a baby, though. Compared to the more...mm...experienced and cultivated people that have and do exist. You dont concern your self with your ego? You just let it do its thing? How interesting.... Peace.
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I was re-reading this - 1: Is azure the proper colour of the sky?IN THE Northern Ocean there is a fish, the name of which is Kun [1], – I do not know how many li [1 li = ca. 500 m] in size. It changes into a bird with the name of Peng, the back of which is (also) – I do not know how many li in extent. When this bird rouses itself and flies, its wings are like clouds all round the sky. When the sea is moved (so as to bear it along), it prepares to remove to the Southern Ocean [darkness]. The Southern Ocean is the Lake of Heaven. There is the (book called) The Universal Harmony [2], – a record of marvels. We have in it these words: 'When the Peng journeys to the Southern Ocean it flaps (its wings) on the water for 3000 li. Then it ascends on a whirlwind 90,000 li, and it rests only at the end of six months.' (But similar to this is the movement of the breezes which we call) the horses of the fields, of the dust (which quivers in the sunbeams), and of living things as they are blown against one another by the air [3]. Is its azure the proper colour of the sky? Or is it occasioned by its distance and illimitable extent? If one were looking down (from above), the very same appearance would just meet his view. Are they speaking of how the large affects the small? How the wind of the Peng flying ripples out and affects all the myriad things in its wake? If so, is that talking about a cosmogenesis or cultivation? Maybe its saying that a person who is highly cultivated, when they move, they are capable of sending ripples into the world with their being. Hmm....Dunno. Must ponder more. What do you fine people think?
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I agree, Rene! Its a wonderful thing to be considered unimportant....Interesting how many tales of sages and such are thought by most to be beggars or unimportant.... Also changes how our ego exists. It wants to be important! If that part is dropped, what does it do?
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Marblehead- I enjoyed that story, too! It had no use to others and so it was able to become its fullest expression. It is interesting...when you spend less time trying to be useful to others and spend more time cultivating your self....magical things can happen. On the flip side, we may have to change how we interact with others. Instead of looking at things and people from the standpoint of, what use are they to me? We look at their potential and what they are.... Just see what they are, without adding on to them. OH, since Yin/ Yang is a foundation, then with the Quail and the Peng, it goes both ways. The quail can not understand the peng. The peng can not understand the quail, either. One is too large to see the beauty of the flowers and the other is too small to see the majesty of the mountain tops...
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ChiDragon- Thank you for the pointer. I would rather look at it from the stand point that I dont know it all then assume I have penetrated the wisdom of this text. Distractions...I dont consider various view points to be distractions. I consider them opportunities to expand my mind, look at it from different angles and see if I can grow. Peace.
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Rene- OHH! Ok, I gotcha. Hah, I wanted to make sure. I want to understand these writings. I would rather not continue thinking I was right when I was wrong. Well, shucks! Thank you! Im glad I have made some progress in understanding the Chuang Tzu. Ah, Yes. We must go slow. Newbies like me need to build the solid foundation. Marblehead- Glad you liked my thought bubbles! The TaoTeJing can be hard to penetrate, since its not using stories so much as poems. It seems that Chuang Tzu wanted to give another way to express the principles. To help people. I can see how the problem of Taoism becoming...different would be a problem. Moving away from its root. Less people actually understanding/ cultivating. If its just a rehashing, all the better! Another way for us to penetrate the core, root principles!! This is fun, I feel, Marblehead. Lets keep going!
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I feel like this version of the Joker could very well be a Taoist expression. I feel that he is very in touch with him self. He states multiple times how he is in touch with his deepest, purest desires. "I’m like a dog chasing cars, I wouldn’t know what to do if I caught one, you know, I’d just do…things." "You see I'm a guy of simple tastes, I enjoy dynamite and gun powder and gasoline." "All you care about is money, this town deserves a better class of criminal" He may seem to be chaotic and at war with him self and the world, yet that is not entirely true. He knows who he is. What he is. He does not plan, he does not scheme. He acts. He does. All coming from his core. Its easy to say someone like him is not enlightened or wise or anything other then crazy. Yet, if we dont touch that part of us that he embodies, are we truly whole? Who are we to say that he is not a fully integrated person? I have always felt that this type of character has huge amounts of wisdom within it. So often, in our society, we ignore the aspects the Joker expresses. The wild, crazy, chaotic aspects. Its scary! It hurts! Its not "right"! Its immoral! Hah! I feel that Heath Ledger out did him self in this role. He embodied the chaos, the insanity in such a way that few have. That is why this is one of my favorite movies. The Heath Ledger Joker is my favorite character that expresses and embodies the more chaotic nature of life. Peace.
