Uroboros

Marblehead- I do appreciate you telling me where you are coming from at the beginning. It does help me understand what you are saying. So, thank you! Do you feel that space can be defined, though? Defined as anything other then something that appears to exist? Yes, I dont yet see a way for all these states/planes to exist in any separate place/ way. They all seem to have to be here, simultaneously. We may separate them, mentally, to help us understand each part/ mechanism/ way...Eventually, they blur and only appear to exist separately...Or so my current understanding says. Hmm..Being in the Wu and Yu State simultaneously, eh..We would have to be, if they existed. Maybe that is similar to how a Shaman lives, one foot in the Mystery, one foot in the Manifest...We all live like that in varying degrees...Interesting. Im not saying any of this can be truly separate. Just separate for gaining elementary understanding, in the mental realm. Hmm...I did not know that about Waves/ Particles... Why do you feel that the Particle could be the Mystery? I would think its the other way around. The Mystery would be the Wave...Maybe I dont understand Particles/ Waves very well, then. Haha, I have not been in this form for very long.. My father loved the Shadow, so he would say, Only the Shadow knows all the time...Even now, I find it amusing to say. You are the first person who has gotten the saying, though. Which I find hysterical and fantastic! Finally someone gets it. Thank you for your input/ discussion! Its quite allot of fun. Peace.

Hehe, be who you are! Materialist/ Atheist belief systems exist, so they must be important. Rambling on that, done... Hmm..Interesting.. Mystery might then be..that which has no boundaries/ definition? Thank you for sharing! When I said "plane" i dont mean someplace other then here...I meant on a mental/ conceptual level. Since we can experience all forms, all levels/ planes, its all here in some way.. Or maybe im mistaken! Thats half the fun, finding out your wrong so you can find out what is true-ish. Do you feel that the Mystery could be likened to a Wave and the Manifest to a Particle? Or maybe the Mystery would be better explained as "empty space"? Thoughts upon thoughts, where they come from...only the shadow knows.... Peace.

Cat- hehe...a pulse..like our heartbeat..reflections upon reflections. A pulse from where, I wonder...Maybe everywhere at once? I was reading Embryonic Breathing by Yang Jwing-Ming and in it he was talking about this topic. Here is what he wrote about the first Chapter of the DDJ. Unsure which translation he is using, if its not his own. Nothing, is the beginning of Pre-Heaven (wuji); Having, is the mother of millions of objects (yin/yang). Always keep nothingness, so to observe the marvelousness (of nature). Always having, so observe the returning (recycling or ending) of millions of objects. He is saying that Yin/Yang come from Wuji and they also unite and go back to Wuji. Which could be a pulsation of no-thing to some-thing, in a way. Some thoughts. Peace.

3bob- Thats a wonderful point! Does creation/ destruction mean what we usually think it means?! Hmm...I shall ponder that...The transition of Form to Form-less... On one level, the old is unmade and something "new" is made...our bodies do this...the world around us does this..our minds do this...maybe the universe does this.. Like a pulse. Pulse out- Manifest...Pulse returns- Un-manifested. If we are in a form state.. can we truly enter the form-less? Marblehead- Thats a beautiful sentence... are you saying that all that is and will be exists on one level/ plane, whilst on another, change appears to occur? Peace.

Welcome darkstar! Do you prefer darkstar or Star Urioste? Anywho, welcome and I hope you find what your seeking and enjoy yourself. Peace.

I watched these two videos and found some nuggets in there that I had not thought of before. Thought you all might enjoy these!

CT- Maybe that is why. We live in duality yet we also live in unity/ non dual. its all seems to be there. We can think in yes or no, left or right. We can also think in maybe, yes and no, both. We can see/ experience duality and the unity within that... I feel that investigating, penetrating the true true of a thing is quite fruitful. Its also allot of fun. I dont know what any of those things really means. I can say what I was taught, what I may think of it now....does not mean I know anything of the thing itself. Maybe to live in unity, we might want to consider accepting every aspect of life as vital. Nothing left out. Something to ponder, maybe. Peace

Welcome, Yulongbr!

Hmm...maybe the "real" is creation and destruction. We happen to exist, at times in duality. Within that "plane/level" we can interact with nature in certain...harmonious ways. Instead of thinking either or, thinking in terms of both might be useful. Unless we can bring our awareness to the true true, we may just delude ourselves into thinking that we are "one". Even if we do bring our awareness into the true true, we may still be deluded into thinking that we are outside of/ separate from/of duality. Duality may be a wonderful way to reach the true true (real). We may be able to contemplate/ merge into change and discover that which does not change within change... Some thoughts. Peace.

There isnt, Joe?! What have I spent my life doing, then?! (mind blown) Cat- Thats something important we often forget. To create something new, the old must be destroyed... On a personal level, when we move towards a new direction, sometimes the old, solidified experiences seem to be crumbling. We then freak out! Oh no! When its just that cycle being put in motion. The old is destroyed to create the new... If we could remember that when the old burns, instead of freaking out, embracing it for what it is and could be.... Life might be a whole lot more fun and joyful! Some thoughts. Peace.

Each person has their own unique blend of traits. Hard to use one thing to heal em all. Gotta find what works for you. hehe...Ebay....Energy Bay?! Like Michael Bay? Whoa...

Hello, Clariceedward. In my own experience, some forms of QiGong work better then others for different people. The first one I learned was the 8 Pieces of Brocade...practiced it for about 8 months, 30 minutes to an hour a day. I felt no improvement. When I started to learn the 1st form of Wild Goose, without even having learned 1/4 of the form, I felt improvements. My memory was getting sharper, I felt calmer, more energized. Of course, the period between going form 8 Brocade to Wild Goose, I did work on myself, as well. The effects of Wild Goose keep continuing to build and change. All this to say, I have experienced it working, if its the right one for you. Another aspect could be that your problems are old, dense. Your trying to heal 75 years worth of "trauma". You probably have imbalances that could take QiGong allot longer to work thru, then say, by using other clinical means. (chiropractic, ayurveda, acupuncture, herbs, applied kinesiology etc) You might benefit greatly from working on yourself and having clinical work done. On the subject of someone using their energy to heal you...I saw some people who do Rei-Ki and I was not impressed. It felt weak, to me. I got nothing out of it. Some people get great healing from it. As most everyone has said, diet is vital. If your digestive system is in that bad a condition, stay away from all kinds of flour. No bread, no rice, nothing. If your gut is reacting badly to gluten, it could take atleast 30 days of no gluten in your system for your digestive system to calm down. Any piece of gluten and it starts all over again. Its easy for us to delude ourselves into thinking we are doing more then we are. To take the easy road. That path does not work as often as some would like. If you have not already, you might want to consider taking a real hard look at what you ingest, where it comes from and so on. Do you drink soda? Tea? Water? If so, how much? Do you eat out? If so, what do they cook with? are the ingredients seperated for gluten allergies? Just some thoughts that may or may not help you along your way. I wish you success and happiness. Peace.

Welcome, Sillybearhappyhoneyearter! I hope you enjoy your time here. Peace.

BaguaKicksAss- Unfortunately, I have met some MA who do little sparring. The sparring that they do is light and in no way even 80 percent force. I have also met some that are far more serious about their development! it takes all kinds to make the world, it seems. Can you go into the deeper depths of Taji without practicing it as a MA? I wonder.... Oh, wow! That sparring group sounds fun! hehe, even if they were far more skilled. Did you learn some good stuff from your time with them? Ah yes, a teacher who is helping you progress..not just enjoying woopin your buttocks. SloppyZhang does seem to be dedicated and thorough. That would make a big difference, I feel. My own experience has shown me that there is something...mysterious, slips thru your fingers when you try to grasp it, that is expressed and shared while learning from my teacher. It takes awhile and sometimes I glimpse/ grasp a tiny thread of what is being expressed...I still put allot of time and effort into books and media learnings to progress between sessions with my teacher. Combination! OldGreen- I agree, meditation and some other things are easier to learn thru media methods. Taiji and Bagua...Even QiGong forms, more difficult. haha. You just cant get around hard work. You put the effort in and you will get somewhere...you wont be lost, you will be right where you walked. Wherever that is. Peace.

SloppyZhang! So many insightful points. What a wonderful discussion we are sharing in. not everyone does have access to a teacher of a skillful quality that can understand their unique state and help them progress in a holistic manner. I agree. IF you can, then I feel its worth its weight in salt. Although, if you can find a teacher who...is skilled in some things, even if they are not able to understand your unique state, you can learn allot. It is easy to delude ourselves into thinking we have made progress...especially when we dont have a good gauge of what the deeper states are. I completely agree with you on your training methods. Use everything you can to refine and deepen. Its great that your friend, who cares not for Taiji, is willing to go with your requests. A wonderful way to test and refine. By actually testing...what a novel idea! Yes, if your practicing MA of any kind and you want to have any martial skill, at some point you would probably benefit greatly from sparring against all types of practitioners you can. Also non practitioners. Find someone who fights more like a criminal. Study violence. See how most street fights happen. If a person tries to kill you or rob you, how does that usually go down? Is there time to set up techniques and get in the "zone" or do they just walk up and stab you 10 times in the stomach? Thats completely different from someone throwing a punch. I feel the mental aspect is vital as well. Can you bring forth the mental state that will allow you to respond properly in a violent situation? Do we have methods to cultivate that state, so if something happens, we can snap out of a freeze/ lock up? Im glad that at BK Frantzis's Seminars his senior students come. Do they create an environment that you feel is open towards asking questions until you understand? When I said feedback loop, I was talking about one where all the participants are working towards helping each other really progress, so if something does not work, it does not work and they help each other find out how it could work. Even if a group of people are unskilled and invested in the practice. that does not mean they will just go along with it. I feel that if I am invested in it, I want to get real skill. So deluding myself is silly and wastes my time and theirs. That kind of attitude, I feel could be beneficial in a group. I do feel thats one of the big problems with Traditional Martial Arts nowadays. many train hard, they just might not spar/ fight as much as MMA practitioners do. MMA practitioners practice very hard. Allot of them fight to condition themselves. Going from light sparring/ form practice to dealing with a person who does that often, will probably be very difficult. So, since in the old days TMA were used to defend/ attack and all that, whats the difference between how they trained and how we might train now? If we can figure out how to..adjust and correct these problems, then the arts may have practitioners of real, deep, quality skill again. Who knows! Peace.

Creating a feedback loop. Hmm...that is probably better then a single person alone. Maybe even doing a book club type get together. Each person can express their own interpretation and they can work thru that. Aliens..hehe...Cosmic Hyperspeed Saucer Qigong! Very powerful.

Hmm...thats a difficult question..I have not met a teacher who is does not put forth effort. My own Teacher puts forth allot of effort with me..haha, I need it, thought! Gosh, a giant class would drive me a bit batty. far too much going on for me to get anything. One on one is the best for my own self. Like how SloppyZhang needs to understand the principles/ theory and can learn allot from books. Hmm...If peers get together and practice...yet none are more skilled then others in any large way....will it be more then a large group of people groping in the dark instead of just one? Horror movies show how that works out....haha

Welcome, Perfect Egg! I hope you find what your looking for on your path. Peace.

BaguaKicksAss- Taking videos of ourselves can be incredibly helpful, i agree! I have also observed that some teachers might happen to be skilled at marketing or have a good marketing team yet what they teach is...only good for certain things. The hype does not equal the quality, sometimes. I wonder if this comes to a fundamental problem...that we are trying to take something and express it with words..when it cannot truly be. Maybe the full sensory experience is far closer, a more accurate guide post towards the things. it does seem that quite a few books have missing information, or just pieces. whether this is because the writer does not know or that they choose to withhold, I dont know. SloppyZhang- Im not disagreeing with you, that media methods of learning work for some. This is not an absolute. as you say, its varied, unique, circumstantial. The only thing I feel concerned about is that a person might think they are getting somewhere by themselves OR learning from a teacher, without any real...experience of that development. We delude ourselves quite easily at times. There are some people who can watch, observe and see the essence of a thing. Many dont seem to be able too. If you are that dedicated, many teachers would probably love to have ya! haha. My point is this. Having a quality teacher who can help you along your unique path, based on your unique condition, is very helpful and valuable to me. If someone else does not want that or think they need it, good for them! Everybody is unique. Thats a big part of what makes life beautiful. Both sides are correct in their own way. Peace.

Interesting...I can see how putting that much effort and contemplation into each tiny part would help you course correct. I agree that understanding the Theory behind each "thing" helps tremendously. I have to do that when I ponder the nature of nature. hhaha. You go in a direction and then end up someplace very strange....gotta see if the principles are still being expressed coherently. I admire your focus on fundamentals. Building that strong foundation so if you do end up doing other things you can actually do them properly. Who knows! You may, in your practice, have more complicated things show themselves naturally. It sounds like you spend allot of time on internal awareness. Thats wonderful! I have to do the same, as well. Thank you for going into such a detailed explanation of how you learn and why it works for you. Much fuel for ze fire. When you talk about analyzing each movement, I can relate. When my Teacher shows me things, I observe and pick up stuff I might not realize right then. Later on I realize- OH, thats what I need to do now. haha. Its fascinating that we all can have such varied ways of learning....Life is colorful, at the least. Humility is important. Being able to actually listen and realize that you might not be doing it perfectly...hehe, perfection,..does it exist? I dunno. Peace.

Welcome! I hope you find what your looking for. Even the things you dont know your looking for! Peace.

BaguaKicksAss- I have observed that same thing. People who dont really practice or who are weekend warriors. So much information out there is mediocre. When I talk about having a teacher, i mean a teacher who is skilled. Who has penetrated certain depths beyond the fundamentals. Otherwise, there is probably not much you are going to get out of it. How the person treats you does show allot about who they are and what they practice. Does their personality show some effects of training? Do they act in a manner you would expect? Most of all, do they seem healthy and strong? Questions like these can help us...discern who to learn from and find a real gem. SloppyZhang- I agree with you, some books are filled with wonderful information. If a teacher charges thousands of dollars for a seminar, I would expect that they not only know how to teach powerful methods during a short time, with retention and accuracy for the students, that they also have a way for their students to course correct. Some things you can learn from books, especially books with real knowledge/ wisdom in them. Your point about learning styles is important, I feel. I learn best thru hands on, doing/ experience. Im glad that you have found a way that works for you! The main thing I feel concerned about with learning predominantly from books is course correction. You learn one thing yet do a part of it a little off...and that ripples into bigger problems that down the road, are much harder to heal. How do you handle this? Peace.

On the topic of charging, I find it to be a general good thing. Nowadays people value their money more then time/ effort. If a person pays for something, they are more likely to actually do it. Plus, it helps a teacher sift thru potential students. How much do they value what they are learning? Enough to pay for? We have these people who have spent their lives developing themselves and progressing down certain paths, why should they share this for free to anyone who wants it while the blacksmith or the carpenter gets paid? Its a craft. One that is very deep and if people who practice it and reach a level where they can teach, decide to teach, I feel it is a good thing for them to use their craft to pay their bills. That way more people can learn because they are taken care of. I feel that saying its a spiritual thing so it must not be tainted by money is ignoring that spirituality is life. Its about life and money is a part of life. If you want to talk about the whole/ one, you cant exclude something. Anywho, more thoughts. Peace.

I have observed that in some form as well, MorePieGuy. Some people teach QiGong and Yoga and other methods without themselves being skilled enough to know what they are doing. An example, I knew a person who was teaching Medical QiGong after practicing for 4 to 8 years. That is no time at all for these practices. I wondered at how this person felt they could teach people how to get some real healing/ cultivation when they were still a baby. Maybe you progress faster in certain systems because of the focus. It does also seem to matter what system a unique person is learning. some are...attuned to certain ones more then others. All this to say, there are teachers who have been deep into the path and those who have just scratched the surface. Allot of what we consider to be great, high cultivation, might end up not being it at all. It has just become the normal gauge for progression. Some thoughts. Peace.

I have learned allot from books, the internet, dvds and Taobums. Still, I made little real progress until I found my Teacher. I feel there are things you can learn from books and such. If you cant put it into practice, its not worth much. Having a teacher who has been there, who knows what can and will happen, is priceless. Plus, a teacher can see where you are on the path and what your unique condition is. That has been gigantic for me. So many things would have taken so much longer to heal/ figure out without having a skilled Teacher. There are nuances to learning forms/ practices that you might miss from a book or dvd. Those can be very problematic. I feel that the use of media as a learning tool is tremendous, when used in conjunction with a skilled Teacher. That way you cover your bases. You dont end up doing a practice that will actually hurt you because of some imbalance you didnt realize existed. If I had to choose media or teacher, I would choose teacher every time. Far better to learn one good, solid practice and do that right, then learn a whole bunch of things that may or may not help you truly progress into the depths. Peace.