Jadespear

Cool.

...right so I harken back to my previous claim. "Nibbana" is a state of mind, or being. What you are describing as the cessation of attitudes and habits is all it is... which is fine. Actually is very good. It makes sense literally, as the word "nibbana" means the extinguishment of something... Trust me, I've developed plenty of dispassion for the world and for striving towards ends. Thank you for the post. But, has God ever reached out to you? Thats what this thread was about.

Ok, so yet again - what is nibbana or nirvana? The literal meaning is lost to me... I understand that there can be different places with different conditions or surroundings or whatever you want to call it in existence...but thats all they are. Nirvana is a place described as one with nothing, or a place of permanent residence? Or what? It's too caught up in religious promise like all religions... be good, and reach everlasting happiness. But for buddhists its what - become enlightened, reach everlasting nothingness? And yet, how does becoming aware of things equal causation into said places? That doesn't make sense. Obviously one would have to literally know how to "get"there. I mean, I enjoy the buddhist perspective, its just that its all based on ones existence as being utterly terrible and worthless in the end... so much so that all effort is put into escaping all reality? For what? Some other reality? Robert Monroe reached a curious place in his afterlife travels as well, which he described as being supremely blissful. He called it "home". Yet, beings still get bored there. All the pre-determined rules are kinda laughable to me... considering that anyone at anytime can do whatever they want, i.e. meditate for the rest of their life if they wanted to. And also, learn how to live forever.

Thanks Nungali. Yes, I agree. I like how you nicely paraphrased the subject both ways... god reaching out to us, and us reaching out to god. Honestly, isn't it strange that people even pre-suppose that they came from somewhere "else"... I mean... here we are. Lay people believe in the afterlife, etc. but they don't know it. Seems rather foolish to embrace your defined "black school", when it only makes life harder to bear than it already is... perpetual angst on top of survival? No thanks. I'll take the white school, accept, learn, & rise.

I think it's the opposite. There is no way to literally understand divinity in comprehensible terms unless you understand existence. Albeit, yes - there is "wisdom" that we all have that isn't dependent on perception, but intuition - which is based in the divine. But for the sake of this topic "magic" is basically referred to as the literal "knowledge". Not sorcery and conjuring spirits in the middle of the night... If you actually believe in divinity, then is it not presupposed that all things come from it? Therefore to endeavor to understand "all the things" - I.e. magic is the literal path of understanding everything one step at a time, where each new piece of information adds to the previous - thus in the end adding up to the eventual complete understanding. It could be compared to "enlightenment of the observable universe and how it operates". Which is why high level adepts performed miraculous and magical feats to demonstrate their understanding... Jesus miracles, buddha miracles, etc etc etc. Jewish Kabbalah is a way that instructs one to gradually walk this way of knowledge on approach of divinity. Which is why Jewish priests could and can perform "magic". Which is why Moses parted the Red Sea with a magic staff, etc etc Which is also why Jesus is always largely depicted in pictures with his hands in Mudra shape. True Magic is the absolute science of the law, deeply protected and used only for noble purposes by those who are sincere in their understanding and embrace of it.

Thank you Nungali. Yes regarding "siddhi" - I've also heard that if someone does not experience some form of siddhi as in a spiritual experience, or a yogic union of sorts that causes effects... then its a sign that they have not yet reached a certain level of meditation. Which makes sense...because the word "siddhi" literally means - "accomplishment". What is commonly understood as miraculous or occult or magic is nothing more than the arisen effect initiated by one who has accomplished reaching or being in union with (temporarily) the causal sphere ( the tao, the source, the absolute, whatever). Which makes sense to me when hearing about all the phrasing of "attain the tao", or "one with god" or "conquer the all", or "flow with the tao". If one does not reach the tao in such a deliberate way - no accomplishment or siddhi will ever occur. So the things that happen are basically side-effects that point towards a synthesis of oneself with the all - what mystics call, "the mystic death". Buddhists call it "ego death". Etc etc.

Thank you. So, said another way - nirvana is a state of being in harmony and engaged with only that which provides pleasure. As, greed, hate, and delusion typically do not. While the abolishment of these emotions may be a pre-qualification of being in or reaching "nirvana" - thats all they really are. The problem I have with this way of thinking is that it is somewhat cyclical and based on relativities. Negative emotions are a part of life, albeit not pleasant. I experience nirvana when in communion with the absolute. What hindus call bliss. Which is what Im pretty sure the Buddha referred to as well, as he learned meditation and everything from hindu/vedic sages. Which is why the saying is true from the Bhagavad Gita - "pure awareness of consciousness produces infinite joy". To me, as I understand it - "nirvana" and "infinite joy" are the same thing. I'm sorry - I don't see a way to logically agree with the aim of ending reincarnation. Apparently from some stories of spirituality, even high angels / gods feel sadness, etc. So, no matter where you go in the Universe - all the good and bad still exists in potential. Therefore, it's impossible to negate it entirely... not saying the effort isn't worthwhile and positive. I totally believe in the value and worth of being a positive person. I could be totally wrong, but it seems to me that buddhists believe in "ending reincarnation" on Earth. They totally believe in "re-birth" into another realm... the so called "pure lands" etc etc. Which is basically the same belief and reasons why they promote the embrace of virtues - as what qualities one reinforced in themselves mentally emotionally - influence where one goes upon death. The concept of reincarnation from ancient times seems to be limited to people actually believing that when people died they became other creatures on Earth... it seems like that is the so-called "cycle of birth and death" they are always trying to escape from. Why else would buddhist scriptures espouse beautiful places in the afterlife that sound like heavens? They are all basically simply an attempt to rise above the perceived drudgery and lack of happy existence on Earth. Which is why - the hindus proclaim that such assertions may be true, that life here isn't as good as the next place, BUT - that doesn't mean that you have to wait until you die to experience it. Thats why they proclaim the beauty of life in the here and now. In the here and now - on Earth, in a pure land, in a hell, in the middle of nowhere - is the only thing true, the only thing to rely on for supreme and everlasting happiness. That is what "niravana" is to me... the joy that eternally emanates from the source, the tao, or the absolute. The buddha didn't seem to proclaim it as such, because he probably believed that when it was discovered its significance was more impactful than if talked about and proclaimed as an authority.... but the Buddha still proclaimed himself as an authority - but only on the "way" to perceive inwardly and outwardly.

Ok, cool. Because this is a taoist forum. Please remember what taoism is. Taoism is the philosophy of life and evolution. Created by people to steward heir progress as beings. Per taoist philosophy - life is to live and to evolve. All being go through evolution. To advance into classes of higher beings - is what taoism and many other schools are about. Why is this so? Because there are basically two alternatives that do not serve a being well - namely; regression or devolution, and stagnation. Taosit "immortals" are transcendent beings who seek to live in harmony and peace with the Tao, and to serve the Tao as they are a part of it. To serve the Tao is also to serve oneself well.

...so poetic. Sadly, petitioning other beings keeps you in a state of lesser being. You will never rise above what you fear. Asking others to help you, when you can help yourself is actually in a way disrespectful and selfish. Complete and absolute control over nature is the way of true yogis, so they can live peacefully. You seem to be confusing the intent of learning a lot. Without knowledge and applied control, you can't do anything. You exercise both all the time but only to the levels that you can, as we all do. The attitude of gracefully accepting all the pain and misery of life isn't noble or even intelligent, compared to what you could do and how you could live your life. Thats why transcendent people leave modern civilization a lot, they have no need for the machine of slavery that cages them. Just saying this all, because I don't like how afraid people are on this subject. Being religious is one thing, thats fine. Being someone who can perform "miracles" to untrained or uninitiated eyes isn't a bad goal per se, its just like anything else...its worth is based on what you intend to do with it. But you have to know how to do anything for it to even be a possibility for you. Exiting the cycle of re-birth? But yet, you petition god ... so you hate his creation but yet believe that he will grant you the aims of your request? Doesn't make much sense to me... thats like saying, "Hey, I hate this place that you've worked so hard to create and maintain and I see no value in it anymore, please do what I beg you for." The gist of what you are saying is basically what? You want to be someone who does nothing in the world, but sits around and observes it? Woah, so profound.

ok, so what is nirvana then?

The term "magician" is simply meant to mean someone who understands and can apply deeper knowledge of the unseen than someone who cannot. A basic fundamental understanding of such things is the basis of any esoteric spiritual pathway, as without understanding it there is nothing but religious attitudes. Nirvana is yet another word I find often misunderstood...it's a state of mind, nothing more. So, if you think that going through life with only a state of mind at your use is fine, well great. Perhaps it is all that one needs at times. However, it becomes something different when one wants to investigate what things are and why - things that only esoteric sciences conceal in spiritual schools...magic has been such a school / way of initiation for all of human history. Whoever explained that to you sounds like someone who is afraid. The whole point of learning is to abolish fear. Why is it so dangerous to want to learn about what one can truly do and accomplish in the phenomenal world? Obviously, a balanced person with common sense already knows the wisdom of when to not do things and how to not inflate their own ego or go crazy in this pursuit. If they don't... they learn it the hard way. The pursuit of ones divine expression is aimed at ultimate freedom as one has learned ultimate influence and control of oneself at the very real and absolute level. Jesus of Nazareth raised Lazarus from the dead because he did not want his friend to die for no reason. Are you telling me that if you had the ability to bring your dead best friend back to life after they were hit by a drunk driver - you wouldn't, because some guy told you not to? People who advance in these respects are called to do things beyond what everyone in the world sees. Thats the whole point... you learn so you can do.

Ok, well then I suppose your just left at semantics. What exactly is "divinity" then? Magic is widely regarded as the application of understanding of the laws that exist from divinity (whatever you want to call it). Otherwise known as the difference between "being" (divinity) and "becoming" (magic).

The lords of karma? Sounds like the spirit beings of Saturn. Magic as low? Clearly you have a strange idea of what magic is... an actual "magician" is someone like Jesus or Buddha - who has the power to change another persons very destiny at will. Entities offering you things? Seems like you've been targeted as a sucker. ..."The way that can be followed is not the eternal way. The name that can be named is not the eternal name."

I'd say it all depends - speculation on the intention of anyone (visible or invisible) isn't really worth much is it? Why don't you find them and ask them yourself? God cares. Enough events have transpired in my life to convince me that God cares enough to reveal his hand at times. Albeit, I was looking for him though. Can't say anything about random people who have no spiritual aspirations...