sillybearhappyhoneyeater

Skill doesn't impress me very much, because skill doesn't indicate quality of character. What impresses me is people who give of themselves freely to others who are in inferior positions to them, and those who use the skill and wisdom they have accumulated through hard work to help instead of to hurt. Any other gauge of skill is stuck in the realm of external achievement and vanity. In the end, everything goes away, but if you left some good behind you in your wake, then people will remember you with fondness. Specific people who score high on that metric for me are: - Nelson Mandela - Ghandi - Thomas Sowell - Thomas Pain And lots of normal people I've met who will be mostly forgotten by history.

Sorry for putting so much info, I just wanted to compile as much as possible to point out that each major school has its own theories which are all legitimate and that people ought not to criticize things that they aren't familiar with. this principle applies to many things outside of Daoism too, but it is hard advice to take, since all of us want to get egotistical benefit in our respective fields.

There is no conflict in ideas here. The valley is the hollow area at the base of the mountain, because of its emptiness it can sustain abundant life. The valley is empty and filled with life, the mountain is full and cannot sustain the same abundance. this is the Daoist logic of emptiness containing fullness and vice versa. the valley spirit can also be viewed as emptiness and fullness mutually arising from each other. Either way, the essential point of 得 一 de yi, "held as one" is how nature is manifested.

I particularly like Huang Yuanji's explanation. Huang Yuanji: "what is the valley spirit? valley refers to a cavity in the mountain, he is speaking of its emptiness. referring to that in changing and movement cannot be restrained, he says "spirit." not dead refers to the an unclouded understanding."

I am personally not a big fan of Qi gong techniques which work directly with the MCO, but here are my 2 c for what they are worth: 1: I don't know how you are practicing, but just as a general point: moving the mind up the spine and down the front is called "empty cycling of the microcosmic orbit," and is generally considered to be bad in Daoism. Most Qi gong methods which are concerned with the MCO will follow a somewhat less direct method of cultivating it which focuses the energy in various places rather than leading it. 2: MCO is better achieved by practising meditation, but it takes longer, since you have to give up your intention to move the qi in that area and just let it move by itself. 3: it is much better to practice naturally rather than forcing things.

Everyone's body reacts differently and Qi may move differently for you than it does for other people. Most people experience heat in the dantian and then qi movement in the du mai, but some people have qi go to their whole bodies, and others have qi go to their legs. The eventual goal is to have the qi to go everywhere though and suffuse all the meridians and vessels. One word of caution though, make sure you don't use too much heat of intention during practice. You should always aim to remain as open and clear as possible. Focus on quiet and calm and let the breath soothe your mind. Huang Yuanji argued that Laozi's passage "maximize emptiness and maintain reverent silence" meant that you should focus on emptying the mind and cultivating a quiet, calm breathing. Remember that the spirit and the breath are meant to mix together, so forcing the dantian may seem to work at first, but it is better for you to work gradually and silently if you can.

Wu wei has various ways to be understood, since different people have interpreted it differently. A very common social definition of wu wei is just not to mess about with things trying to change them. A meditation approach to wu wei sees us setting out intention somewhere so that the mind doesnt move and then gradually becomes empty and we achieve non action. A religious interpretation of wu wei could be that if something bad happens to you then you should wait and the gods will fix it for you, you don't need to take an action to change the situation. a government approach would be to allow the people to rule themselves rather than forcing them to take action on your behalf and so on and so on... Wu wei is part of a three step process: you wei: has action, wu wei: no action, wu bu wei: nothing not taken action on (or wei wu wei: action without action). Usually these are discussed as the post heaven - pre heaven- and spontaneous movement of energy from the pre heaven. They can apply to many, many different things

http://daoistmeditation.com/2016/11/18/ming-gong-the-practice-of-pre-natal-qi/ Ming Gong (the practice of pre natal Qi) Posted on November 18, 2016by james It occurred to me recently that it might be a good idea to make a post or two about xing and ming gong in order to introduce some general concepts about them and why their practices work in the way they do. I will probably make three posts in total over the next week or so, starting with this one, moving next to xing gong, and finally to xing and ming dual cultivation. Ming Gong, The practice of pre natal Qi: Ming in Daoist thought is the idea of life energy. This concept of life energy has been thought about in various ways throughout Daoist history, but I personally like Wang Chongyang’s interpretation of Ming as Pre Natal Qi energy. Some other texts identify Ming as Pre Natal Jing essence, which is also a fine interpretation. The reason I like Wang’s interpretation is because he understood that pre heaven Qi has the innate prerequisite of pre heaven Jing already existing, so his assertion that Ming is pre heaven Qi also means that it uses Jing, which is the building block of life in order to manifest itself and give animation to the body. So basically, regardless of who’s interpretation you like, it is fair to say that Ming is the essential “Animus” which gives rise to our ability to take action as living beings. Chen Yingning and Hu Haiya (20th century Daoist reformers) believed that Ming was like the oil in an oil lamp, it gives people the fuel that they need to live. My own concept that Ming is the basic building material and animus of the body is basically a consolidation of these concepts into a working theory which recognizes that Ming is a principle used to explain how the central systems governing the body function in order to bring life to us. Just like any major idea in Daoism, there are practices associated with Ming and this post will attempt to illustrate some basic ones. Early Daoist books separated Ming gong and Xing gong (the practice of consciousness) quite clearly and there are many different schools of thought on how each of them are cultivated. Usually Ming gong is practiced by quieting the mind and causing the consciousness to seem to vanish. In a sense, this is like sleeping while awake, and only enough intention is required to keep the mind from drifting off, but not so much attention is needed that the mind would be artificially made alert. This natural quieting of the mind, such as that practiced in “Zuo Wang” sitting and forgetting meditation is believed to allow the body to move to the maximum of yin energy, ultimately causing the jing essence transform into Qi and circulate in the body. The explains much about the reason why so many early meditation texts in Daoism advocate that the body and mind must be kept completely still during meditation. This complete stillness is believed to convert the body and mind completely to Yin energy and mimic death. Because Daoism follows the reverse course, instead of the typical concept that life is the origin of death, Daoist meditation masters who focused on ming gong believed that imitating death could be the root of life, so therefore that assuming an unmoving, unthinking, and totally still and silent attitude in meditation could stir the life energy of the body and cause the body and mind to become illuminated and bright with vitality. In effect, this type of Ming gong is the opposite of Qi Gong, which requires the body to be in movement in order to cultivate post heaven Qi. In the next post, we will discuss Xing gong, or consciousness practice, and in the final post we will discuss Xing and Ming dual cultivation, so please stay tuned.

Hi, I have been practising Neidan for a number of years and have published a book on the subject. You can link to it from my website www.daoistmeditation.com I also have a blog there which touches on subjects as diverse as meditation theory, Daoist philosophy, religion, and tea culture. Welcome to have a look. As for spiritual cultivation results, I have dramatically changed the way I behave and view the world through meditation, although I haven't flown away on any clouds to the tai qing heavens yet :) :)

Hi all, just wanted to mention that I'm having another pretty big tea sale on my site www.chayotea.com if you type in the code "thanks" at checkout, you can save 25% off the final price of your tea. It is to celebrate American thanksgiving. Also, if anyone wants to take a meditation course, or one of the other courses on the site, I can apply the same discount to those as well. The sale ends next Sunday

"Greetings bums." Hi! "In order to understand the roots of the many contemporary systems out there and place myself in a position to properly evaluate them, I have embarked upon a study of traditional sources pertaining to Internal Cultivation and hope that some knowledgeable bums might point me in the right direction." Good idea. "Suppose a well respected teacher, such as Jerry Alan Johnson, is instructing one to work with the Chakras. The practice might well prove to be "efficient", but let us consider this for a moment - the Tantrik texts have several models of Chakras, not just seven; they are created with a specific purpose in mind, and hence, a different model could well prove to have been more efficient for ones particular constitution. (see; http://www.tantrikst...-on-the-chakras )" I have no idea about tantric texts since I personally study Daoism, but I would advise being careful about energy based meditation, or any kind of meditation really if you don't have a good teacher. "This notion, which I call the subtelty of the soul's anatomy, is likewise alluded to in Taoist Yoga by Charles L'uk - and yet I have read quite a few modern works which seems to presuppose that the Dantians are part and parcel of ones constitution." Dan Tian means Elixir Field, it is not a fixed item on the human anatomy. Dan Tian is literally anywhere there is energy in the universe. In Daoism, probably post Tang dynasty (just taking a stab at it here, because I really don't know exactly when it came into fashion) it became normal to interpret the head, chest, and lower abdomen as three dan tian which are in turn attached to a complex set of energetic meridians and vessels running all over the body. The Dan Tian areas tend to be where Qi accumulates the most, but in very old Daoist thinking, Dan could be cultivated anywhere, for instance in the Yellow Palace Classic there are many exercises used to cultivate Dan in the organs. "Another problem is translating "Qi" as "energy" - a very arbitrary New Age notion that doesn't fit into the traditional context the idea derives from, and hence stays just that: arbitrary and out of context." Qi is a complex word in Chinese since it denotes multiple meanings. The main meaning is air, but there is another character which is written differently and also pronounced Qi which means energy refined through emptiness. That word is specific to Daoism. "These are just some of the problematics associated with modern Daoism, and I much prefer not wasting my potential through a lack of knowledge, seduced by a love for tingly sensations and tall tales." There have always been problems with Daoism, actually, I would say that Daoism sprung up as a solution to a problem in the first place, as all things do. Lu Dongbin was writing about this in the Song dynasty when he said that most Buddhists and Daoists end up being just like ghosts walking the earth. New age spirituality is not a new invention of the 20th century and fake spiritualists have been a mainstay of spiritual culture since very early on. "As I don't read Classical Chinese, I'm relying on English works and translations. I'm aware of Komjathy's PDF of "Daoist Texts in Translation" but I'm at a loss how to approach that huge corpus of works, though I figure a study of the Yijing, Cantong Qi, Neiye and Huangdi Neijing Suwen is a good place to begin." Good luck, but you are more likely than not to be seriously confused. Can Tong Qi is a very difficult book, as is Neiye. They are hard enough to read if you are fluent in classical Chinese, but very difficult when translated to other languages because they lose so much context. If you want to learn to read ancient texts, you should learn classical Chinese. It will take about three years of daily study to be able to read the most simple of documents fluently, but it is well worth it. I suggest starting with the jade emperor embryonic breathing classic, since it is under 100 words and fairly easy to understand (also directly useful to your meditation practice). "Since Internal Cultivation is intertwined with areas as diverse as philosophy, cosmology, religion, astrology, alchemy, ritual, medicine and remnants of Wu 'shamanism', I more than welcome suggestions and discussions pertaining to these topics, provided the suggestions are true to tradition and the discussions kept civil." I'm sure people will be civil with you as long as you are civil with them Internal cultivation might need better clarification, since that phrase can have many meanings. Usually, it is better to try to learn one area deeply first and then move on the others. I personally prefer meditation, since it is a direct route to realizing the nature of emptiness and developing Qi, so it dovetails nicely into other studies. "In summary, I'm looking to gain an understanding of foundational ideas within the realm of Internal Cultivation through traditional sources." the only way you can really do that is to go find a qualified teacher. That is very difficult, since there are so many fake teachers on the market. I know there are several people on this forum who belong to legitimate Daoist organizations, so you might consider kneeling at their doors for a bit Otherwise you can just shoot the shit with the rest of us plebs :) :)

In short, no. You might want to shake it off before it gets too sleepy to use again

This is what Huang Yuanji called "Xuan Guan Miao Qiao," or the subtle opening of the mystery gate. It is a really important topic in Daoism and is the non physical manifestation of the change from the post heaven to the pre heaven state. Laozi called the time directly after this as "Dao ji," or the trace of the Dao. Actually, at that time, there is no clearly discernible feeling, but instead just mixed in chaos. The feeling directly after is when Qi goes to the body, and that is knowable. So technically, the moment that kun turns to fu you won't know what is happening, but after the Qi moves to the body, then you will be aware of it. That is a very subtle aspect of neidan training that takes a bit of time to get used to

Hi, thanks for this. Here is the commentary I'm working from (Hu Haiya/Cheng Yingning commentary): 默朝者: 即静中存想飞谒也... 一纪飞升: 一纪, 十二月也... Just so we are clear that we are working from different interpretations. I wrote that translation on the fly, I would prefer to have written it "in the dark morning, in one epoch he flew away," which would have been closer to the interpretation I'm working from. Either way, the context Chen Yingning et al. uses is that in the deep darkness is where Jing is found and if used properly, it can be turned to Qi within one year. It is the same meaning as 杳冥有精而泰定发光 from 上清大洞真经 :) :)

The theoretical framework comes mainly from the Southern school, specifically Understanding Reality and associated texts, but it dates back at least to Ge Hong's "Embryonic Breathing" classic, which in effect is the first classical document clearly defining nei dan as a separate entity from wai dan. The main concept is "not entering, not leaving," but can also be explained by this passage from jade emperor subtle heart inscription classic " 上药三品，神与气精，恍恍惚惚，杳杳冥冥。 存无守有，顷刻而成，回风混合，百日功灵。 默朝上帝，一纪飞升，智者易悟，昧者难行。" "the great medicine has three levels, spirit meeting with qi and jing, obscure and distant, dark and deep, maintain emptiness and protect fullness, it seems to turn over and change in no time, the returning wind is mixed together, one hundred days to temper the spirit. in the dark morning shang di in one epoch flew above, the who is wise will easily understand, he who is unclear will find it hard to advance." This early document is a very good gateway into understanding some fundamental concepts of how ming gong works. Keep in mind that Ming gong is primarily concerned first with turning jing to qi, so it is mainly concerned with tempering the inner line of the kan trigram with the two solid lines of the fire trigram, thus causing that inner line to change places, causing the body to revert to the kun trigram. This allows the movement of yin to be completed and give birth to the fu hexagram (one solid line on the bottom of five broken yin lines) and start the movement of qi in the body moving back toward yang and eventually the qian trigram. Ming gong works by using the pre heaven state (no seeing, no hearing, no speaking, no feeling etc) to revert the corporeal body completely to the yin state and then give birth to yang, so that is why the mind is meant to be made 恍恍惚惚，杳杳冥冥 "obscure, distant, dark, and deep." This is the basic method of achieving Wu Wei as written in Lu Zu Bai Zi Bei and Wu Zhen Pian. the Northern school takes a direct departure from this theory by adding in Chan Buddhist theories of cultivating Xing during all activities, so that is where you get the concept of cultivating while walking, standing, sitting, and lying down the most prominently (although it shows up in many documents), since Xing Gong can be done without the body going completely into the yin state. I personally believe that this is why Wang Chongyang put in "Zuo wang lun," into his essays, since the Zuo Wang method helps to balance the xing gong and make energy cultivation a bit faster. Basically, the benefit of Ming Gong is that it cultivates Qi very quickly, while Xing gong tends to cultivate consciousness faster. I personally use the middle school method of Xing Ming Shuangxiu, and I will be discussing both xing gong and xing ming dual cultivation in my next two posts on the subject :) :)

As far as I know (and you'll correct me if I'm wrong), this idea came to prominence under Wang Chongyang in the first generation of the Northern school and is the key feature difference between the Southern and Northern schools. My hypothesis is that this particular modality works better under the system of neidan which "first cultivates xing and later cultivates ming," rather than the school of thought which "first cultivates ming and later xing." This is an important distinction since it means that the prior assumes that the correct cultivation of xing will naturally lead to realization of ming, while the latter assumes that it is important first to generate dan through complete cultivation of stillness and then later to add the element of "Xing gong" to complete the practice. I think this particular problem is very well answered from schools post Zhang Sanfeng which suggested "Xing and Ming dual cultivation," which in my personal opinion perfectly realizes the potential of both ideas. One cautionary note is that moving and standing cultivation make it extremely hard to enter the "mystery gate single portal," so as you say, it is very important to focus on all aspects, especially sitting, although YMMV of at all times of course :) :)

This is a very complex and problem fraught topic, since the connections are many, and yet the historical argument on the subject is filled with competing ideas. Technically, things such as standing post and qi gong all come from Daoist practice. As early as the Tianshi school and possibly even before, Daoists were doing exercises called "Fu Qi," or "swallowing Qi." These exercises would have had both physical and mental aspects and were focused around bringing in Qi to the body. many of these types of exercise could be accurately described as Dao Yin or daoist yoga. Later, especially in the Shang Qing school, Daoists undertook a more complex approach to meditation which often focused on "Cun Si," or "visualization," which was based around visualizing certain things either while in seated meditation or during ceremony. This also lead to the development of "Xie Shu" Daoist sorcery, which is basically the means by which Daoists are able to convey messages and energy seemingly through telepathy. These divergent ideas and Zuo wang style meditation set the groundwork for what would become nei dan. The issue here is where you personally believe Neidan began. I believe that the root of Neidan is in Can Tong Qi and The Jade Emperor Embryonic Breathing Classic, as well as Yin Fu Jing, but that Nei Dan didn't become mature until Lu Dong Bin and then Zhang Boduan. Looking at Zhang Boduan's theory from understanding reality, he specifically criticizes "Fu Qi" and Daoist yoga and says that they are not the real Dao practice. He likely said this because he felt it was important to focus only on cultivating the energy and mind with the mind and not through external practices. So in this sense, the Southern school of Neidan is extremely internal and pre heaven. On the other hand, the Northern school pulled many ideas in from different schools and has many different types of practice which in modern times even include various forms of Wushu. The Northern neidan school was also based around the idea that it was important to first cultivate Xing (nature) before ming (life), and thus, the structure of the practice allows for more freedom of physical movement, so it can include moving qi gong, standing post etc... While the southern school tends to hold that "Shen xin bu dong," or "The body and mind don't move," is extremely important, so that seems to suggest that Qi gong is not part of the practice. Later schools such as the middle school believed it was possible first to achieve elixir through unmoving seated meditation, and then later to extend that practice to physical movement. The Middle Harmony classic is essentially set on the idea that once you have achieved complete stillness, it is possible to move in harmony from "the centre from which affection, anger, sadness, and joy have not yet emerged," so that seems to suggest that they believed that after Dan was achieved, then it could be applied to physical movement. Other later schools such as Qian Feng Pai and so on also have similar concepts. In the 20th century, there were a number of Taijiquan classics written with Nei dan in mind, they are called "Taijiquan 13 Dan," and have been criticized by many taiji players as fake, but in my opinion they are real, but very difficult to practice. That is one side of the coin of the twentieth century drive to put movement and nei dan together, but they other side of the equation, as represented by Chen yingning and Jiang weiqiao was that although movement arts, qi gong, standing and so on were valuable to cultivate post heaven qi, they could not "Change the spirit to emptiness," and that the only way to do this was through silent meditation focused on the pre heaven state. My personal opinion is that Chen yingning was right and that seated meditation is the best way to achieve the spiritual level of practice and to change the mind back to its original state, but that qi gong, standing and so on, are very good ways to cultivate post heaven qi and can be used directly to assist with your meditaiton training. To that end, I usually do Qi gong before I meditate, because it helps me enter a deep meditation state much faster and helps my body be comfortable to sit for longer. I know there are many opinions on this, so I'm not trying to pretend to be totally right, but at least from my own personal experience as well as the recommendation of my teacher, this is the conclusion I've come to on the subject.

Hi all, it looks like I have an open invitation to visit a friend in Denmark next winter. is anyone interested in having a meditation class there? I was thinking maybe we could do a one or two day seminar and talk about basic practices associated with Daoist meditation practices maybe from the perspective of the Southern and Northern schools (compare the theory and practice a bit). Any interest?

There is no "other" orbit, there is only the one body that each of us has and the various pathways existing in them. There are many methods to open the MCO though, and they all have different benefits and drawbacks. Can you clarify what "red dragon" is? That is a phrase I've come across in one very rare elixir classic in Dao Zang, but I don't think it is a practice, but rather a code word for something related to the heart. Basically, when you practice Qi gong, it is much faster to get Qi into the MCO than Neidan, but it is not as deep and ultimately should be used as an adjunct to meditation

I was discussing 玄关一窍 xuan guan yi qiao, the mystery gate single opening. which is specific to neidan practice.

I have a few thoughts about this, but I'll try to keep it as brief as possible: Tea Gongfu comes from Chao Zhou and Wuyi and has around 200 years of history, although different histories give different lengths of time. The original purpose of tea gongfu is to brew Oolong tea because Oolong, especially those from Chaozhou and wuyi require a bit of skill to make properly. The issues with both of these teas is that they tend to get bitter faster than other types of tea. the popular Manchurian Gaiwan was adopted in those places as a tea pot, as were Chaozhou gongfu pots, because their smaller sizes were better for brewing stronger tea and could get more steeps. gongfu tea is the specific tea brewing method of that part of China, and it never existed in other parts of China until much more recently. Usually it is meant to be done as a communal thing, where three or more people get together to taste the tea and chat. In the 1970s, tea master Zhou Yu and some others began to try to create a new genre of Gongfu tea that would copy more closely Japanese Sado tea ceremony as was passed down via China in the Yuan Dynasty. Taiwanese oolong tea can't be made like Japanese matcha though, so Zhou Yu laoshi and others began to use Chaozhou style tea pots which they made in various places in Taiwan including Yingge. Taiwan Cha Dao is what we normally call Chinese tea ceremony, but the fact of the matter is that it was created in Taiwan. This particular Cha Dao is the complicated one with the smelling cups, pouring cup, and complex tools etc. Traditional gongfu tea and Taiwanese tea brewing are typically much more simple and natural. The special aspect of Zhou Yu Laoshi's tea art was that he learned how to brew the tea in a way that made it taste even better than before. Cha Dao has some basic rules which make it superior to old fashioned Chinese brewing methods, so eventually faculties at Chinese universities began to investigate their own research of "Zhong hua cha yi," or Chinese culture tea art. This is a modern invention since the 80s. I was luck enough to meet Zhou Yu Laoshi last year and he was a very nice man with a very deep knowledge of tea, in my opinion, he is the ancestor teacher of Cha Dao and also the root of modern Chinese tea ceremony, although of course there are also other players. Another teacher I met in Taipei said this to me "I used to be invested in nice tea pots, cups, and supplies, this is called cha yi (tea art), but now that I'm old, i only care about cha dao, which is the way of brewing the best tasting tea possible for my guests." I think what he says reflects a lot about what you were expressing in your original post. Whether you brew tea strong or weak is really up to you and what you like, but the goal should always be to bring out the full flavour of the tea with no special tricks to change its character. In my opinion, all tea arts go back to two words "Pin Cha," taste tea. Anyone who does cha dao and doesn't have pin cha gongfu is just waving their arms in the air and looking supercilious. Just like Nei Gong is the internal structure of Taijiquan, tea tasting skills are the basic of tea ceremony, everything else follows. Brewing tea could be as simple as a cup, tea, and water, or it could be a convoluted ceremony with all kinds of tools, special ettiquette, and formal clothes, it is all up to you. one of the best things about tea history is that it is so diverse and so based on nature, enjoyment, and the quality of the tea i hope this post has been informative

From Xing Ming Gui Zhi, Chi Du Zi Tai Xi Jue section: "In the space of the Qi Xue (accupoint under the dantian) the ancients called it the window and door of life, also called the root of heaven and earth. gather the mind here, gradually the yuan qi will increase. The yuan shen will gradually flourish. yuanshen being full means the breath will become smooth. the breath being smooth means the blood will circulate. the blood circulating means the bones will be strong. strong bones means the marrow will be full. the marrow being full means the stomach will become full. the stomach being full means it will move down naturally. moving down naturally means it will move lightly and powerfully. the four limbs will become healthy and the colour (of the skin) will be the colour of a peach. achieving immortality isn't far off" we can see by here that the method is based on "ning shen," or accumulating the shen mind in the Qi Xue point. The correct way to breathe is to allow the mind to gather in this area and breathe there, after a certain period of time, more yuan qi will build up and the blood in the belly will circulate more freely. This is how the movement of the belly begins to naturally move down, not by forcing it with post heaven breathing exercises. Dao De Jing Chan Wei, huang yuanji: chapter one: "Dao Jia believes that the mystery gate subtle portal (xuan guan yi qiao) is in the space of one out breath and one in breath. the in breath comes in and is represented by yin (IE: female), it is quiet, intention on nothing (wei wu). The out breath leaves and is yang, it is based in movement, substantial (wei you). This is the subtlety of one breath." Huang yuanji believed that the in breath should be very soft and not have intention, while the out breath should have some intention. Chen Yingning later explained this as at the time of the out breath, putting more attention on the lower dantian area. Wu Zhen Pian: "exhausting the body pulling and stretching are all not the real Dao. Swallowing breath (as medicine) and eating clouds are all mad." Zhang Boduan understood that Dan can't collect if you are always moving around. In the first section, he is criticising nei gong methods at that time in history and in the second part he is criticising breathing techniques. Good neidan only uses very subtle breathing. Gao Shang Yu Huang Tai Xi Jing: "The foetus congeals in the centre of hidden qi (breath), The breathing moves together from the centre of the embryo... hold on to empty quiet and nurture the shen qi (spiritual breath). the shen moves and the breath moves, the shen rests and the breath rests... the heart does not move in thought, nothing comes, nothing goes, nothing leaves, nothing enters, forever natural. working hard to achieve this is the real road of the Dao" Hu Haiya said in his book "immortality study health preservation omnibus" that the ancients used to sit in the lotus posture in their day to day life, so that was natural to them, but that it or any other postural requirements are not required to enter into correct practice. I think upon review of the most popular ancient neidan documents, you will find that there is very little written about breathing except that the breath and the spirit should coordinate together. Breathing is very important, but you have to know what you are trying to achieve. If you want to learn to clear the du mai meridian, then I agree, putting more emphasis on deeper breathing is good, but if you want to enter the mystery gate, you need to turn down the breath. Your posture will not fall over because when the Qi moves in the Du mai, it will naturally set your body up straight. The fact of the matter is that Neidan practices are based on using Li and Kan, Hun, Po, and Yi together to first hide the intention and then gradually to build up yuan jing, qi, and shen. If you have to focus on complex breathing techniques, you will never enter into complete quiet and go to the pre heaven state. This isn't speculation, there are many documents which explicitly say this and I'd be happy to share them if you want more evidence.

Could you provide me with some documentation from classical documents which discusses the methods you are talking about. I am happy to provide some for you, please give me a couple hours.

Hi Joe Blast, it is good that you have had this personal experience, but please don't confuse this method with classical neidan. edit: I should expand on this a bit: breathing in neidan is meant to be natural, so the best way to breathe is without very much effort. In neidan we are trying to "go back to the root and return to the origin," which is the only way to get into the real "pre heaven," state. Any breathing which requires more effort than just being calm and natural is already taking us into the "post heaven" state, which is considered as a low level practice, or for beginners only in order to help them activate their Qi. Later in practice, people will typically forget they are even breathing. the point is to enter complete emptiness and then forget emptiness, it has nothing to do with complicated breathing techniques at all. Wu Ming Jen was correct, and as usual his posts are very good

The term breathing techniques is a bit misleading in regard to Daoism, since breath control techniques don't specifically have anything to do with meditation. In terms of Daoist meditation practices, breathing typically falls into these categories: - natural breathing: simply breathing through the nose with the tongue pressed to the roof of the mouth. this breathing is often accompanied by attention on the lower dantian. Depending on the school, the in breath may be shorter or longer than the out breath. - sealed breathing: this style of breathing is very faint, almost so faint that it can't be perceived. Usually people who can breathe like this already have years of experience in meditation and have naturally learned how to get the oxygen they need without very much physical effort at all. - abdominal breathing: some people breathe with slightly more emphasis on the lower abdomen, especially if they are focusing on the qi xue point in the lower abdomen. Usually this method of breathing expands down and out and relaxes down into the lower abdominal muscles, always keeping the mind and breath together in the qi xue point. - lung breathing: some schools suggested to naturally breathe into the lung and feel the feeling of expansion and contraction. Listening to the breath is very comfortable and a very good practice in "zuo wang" sitting and forgetting meditation. Outside of these, such as "reverse breathing" and other complicated breathing techniques are typically the domain of qi gong and martial arts, so much of the information presented by YMAA and similar organizations is actually presented from the perspective of martial arts and qi gong, not from Daoist meditation. In meditation practice, it doesn't matter what breathing you do, but it is better to do the one that makes you go to non action and quiet as fast as possible, so breathing practices which require you to do complicated tasks or use more muscles than regular breathing are all the wrong way (Zhang Boduan said this in Understanding reality).