Yae

I just spoke with Qigong Master Jim Nance, one of Master Lin's most accomplished students. He said that even though he's had experiences with out of body travel and other phenomena, those things aren't his area of expertise. He said that asking him about Neidan is like asking a PhD in History a question about French. He's a master healer. So really if someone is interested in Neidan, well, SFQ really isn't. It's interested in healing. Neidan goals are never the focus. But he said I would have to ask Chunyi Lin himself whether he has personal experience with Neidan. But really, even if he does, I mean, why practice with one person who's not even focused on that instead of practicing with a large school of people existing FOR that?

I'm not really a Neidan student yet, but it seems clear enough that that is probably a felt effect of the method (but the method itself doesn't rely on feeling). It's a result not the cause. And it happens without mental guidance or guiding with breathing etc. That's an effect of aging, not feeling the actual energy responsible for it.

Innersound, I'm pretty sure ghost immortals are not incarnate. They're like ghosts. It's not a special ability humans can gain, it's a step back from Human Immortal (mentioned in OP). opendao has said that the regular practice takes two hours a day, even being 10 years into the practice. Chunyi Lin has plenty of personality and I believe he does at least that much daily. It also seems like the personality could develop quite a bit in this stage of Spirit Immortal I'm also working with the idea that it would be more valuable to do this- in terms of helping people and doing the most good, than the value of stopping short to spend all of one's energy here. I'm not exactly claiming that Chunyi Lin is "stopping short" because I don't know that. But objectively this sounds exponentially more valuable. You know how group peace meditations have been scientifically shown to temporarily reduce crime by a significant percentage? And that's just using positive intention! Maybe someone with more spiritual energy would have a greater effect. Anyway I figure that the deeper one goes toward understanding the universe/reaching the root of things, the more powerful and far-reaching the influence can be.

Happy 4000th post Brian And who could possibly know enough to do accurate labeling? Hmmm... You?

Oh ok thanks. When I first read "theoretically possible" with true Neidan, I took it to mean that people don't actually pursue it even though they could. But it's more like one of the "flowers along the road" that are signs of progress but not actually the aim. Amazing.

One says TY is right, one say it's wrong, that is disagreement. It's also being argued whether it's real Neidan capable of cultivating yuanshen.

Alchemist posted this. To name a few that are present in TY: 5. Sexual abstinence. 10. The Art of the inner chambers. 12. Maintaining purity. 13. Quieting (thoughts stopping). 23. Gathering and replenishing. 29. Immobility.

Alchemist, thanks. The reincarnation cycle sounds very long and chaotic that way... Many lifetimes, most lived not as a human, and even in the lives as a human, the chances are very low to be an adept, and even then how many of the adepts would actually reach immortality? There must be a sort of order to it, no? Maybe in the building of virtue over time so that a person can have a better and better life with better environmental conditions/good destiny etc to lead to high attainment? opendao said this: So would it not be held that ALL people who don't practice complete methods for xing and ming to fruition are in a more or less not going anywhere, and will probably just die and become ghosts?

I have a question. Am I correct that physical immortality is not a goal of Neidan, but is theoretically possible? But if a person has merged ming and xing, reaching the Earth Immortal stage, how is it even possible to die of old age? If a person has enough yuan qi, how could they ever die "of natural causes"? How long would an Earthly Immortal live, if they didn't continue on in the practice to eventually transcend the physical like Bodhidharma?

Dude the term "ancient Chinese secret" didn't come from nowhere. Weell ok I have read that some masters were greedy with their knowlegde which would be a negative connotation for that saying so maybe it's not helpful here. I disgress: A lot of reasoning has been given for why the Neidan methods are secretive. From the Neidan vs Qigong thread: right. And such responsibility deals also with the fact that the ming practices give a big excess of energy. Teacher is responsible if the student goes wild and becomes a monster. That's why it takes a while to test a student. It takes a lot of time to clear the heart by various exercises. It's a long and tedious process for both parts. The methods cannot be shared widely because of that. It's like to give a shotgun to a child.

Hey, on the daode.ru site I found some discussion about abstinence. The site is in Russian so this has been automatically translated: Yes, there is. From 100 days. Sincerely, DA It is not permanent, is made in the practice of certain periods. In this regard, the southern school more interesting - there is no abstinence at all, but there is more rigid discipline and strict adherence to tradition teacher-student. https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://forum.daode.ru/f196/otkrytaya-politika-i-otkrytaya-shkola-alhimii-van-chunyana-ma-danyana-1712/index4.html&usg=ALkJrhgjHdUzrRhbkEaMZmtVTBfxrIAPWQ

But living itself uses yuanshen. But if there's a method that replenishes it faster than it can be spent then it's not necessary. Maybe that's just to say it's not Neidan. And life. And they're saying that wrong methods like too much sitting meditation in the beginning are potentially very detrimental, even in some cases regressing someone to the ghost immortal state. It seems like the common spiritual belief today is that the soul is this impervious immortal thing, but the Neidan teachings and even what's suggested by Chunyi Lin healing ghosts seems to suggest that souls really can get lost and damaged. I mean Chunyi heals these ghosts right? This Neidan seems to say he may be creating ghostly immortals by teaching things like long sitting meditation, that make the body and/or soul too yin. TY also aims to create a 100% yang spirit. Would you then argue that the meditations apparently taught at the beginning would not be able to make the body too yin? I think opendao has said that a small amount of meditation (15 minutes a day or maybe 30 max) may be used in some cases as part of preperatory practice for quieting the heart. But I don't think TY has any sort of time restrictions. The yuanshen cultivation method would make this unnecessary too from what they're saying. They even say that focus and visualization drains the yuanshen. I think in this Neidan (YXP, WLP,) they don't really work with the mind directly because the practices guide the mind to serenity. And using the mind is postheaven. Yeah they're not allowed to be forthcoming about what to actually do. I'll just join the pack of naysayers. But maybe correct naysayers. But the truth will show in my saintly complexion and black hair lasting well into old age. Hey that sounds pretty good... But luckily it's only a secret not-in-person, if it makes sense to you let's go to Vancouver! I really want to get access to information about who and how many people have gotten to what stages in the practice. So curious. But I'll probably just take a sort of training that lasts a few days, and fly in as necessary (that's what opendao is planning to do for those of us from out of the area). I'm gonna go balance my chi and stress on an eden-style fruit farm in Hawaii while I cultivate. And be an uber driver... Lol. Woohoo! Nobody here is denying that Chunyi can heal people. Yuanming Zhang is 51 and I just noticed his hair is still jet black. Not that I'm doing anything about it, just saying. Oh and he heals people pretty often I think. Well that would indeed probably have to be a yang spirit version of Lao Tzu. Just sayin.

Ohhhhh. Consider it done, 师! Are there any links you know of to un-translated copies of suggested reading material? I wouldn't take my findings seriously, but would like to try. I personally need no more convincing. I'll go with a living true Neidan school.

Here are some quotes from that paper with some actual substance:

So "leakage stop" is significant but not celibacy? Does that mean either that you can have sex without leaking, or that celibacy is disregarded but comes about spontaneously when you reach a point and "leakage stops"? True celibacy avoids sexual thoughts as well apparently, so I don't think sex without some leakage is possible.. I think we're a bit too in the dark here without knowing the methods. If we could at least have a "censored" translation of this or a similar text done by someone who has actually practiced the methods so there won't be what are being called mistakes like translating something like "sitting practice" as "meditation". And there^. It seems like we can't really approach any of TY's discussion of "emptiness" without knowing "how the spirit-shen can enter the 'emptiness that is not empty'". And does TY ever reference the use of visualization? Or is it entirely literal? Because apparently visualization is a not a tool of Neidan.

zombie energy? what do zombies run on... well it sounds like a maybe but I don't even want to touch that y'know. cause I don't know. That's where I am right now too. But it seems like regardless it would be a good idea to learn the real training from a traditional school with teachers who I think might be more active in guiding people through these processes than Chunyi who is focused on healing. I think I read that some schools do ming first and some do xing. Woops sorry, yes that's an important part of this conversation... It's freely available but only in person. But the methods are only taught after I think 2 or was it 3 years. But in Wuliupai there's the preheaven method JIUYANGSHENGONG that's taught after like a month and is like a sample of preheaven work to introduce it, but it's not capable of cultivating the yangshen.

The argument is really just that it can't do what Neidan does. Apparently it's used as a prepatory practice in Neidan schools, but it's not to be considered Neidan by any means.

This didn't especially resonate as true or untrue, but it did add to the question of existence of preheaven results outside of the traditional Neidan teaching, which is only a consideration of mine because of the topic of bilocation. It seems like there are too many stories of it (bilocation) in too many cultures for them all to be false. It just seems like something worth thinking about. I think it's less "presto" and more that the methods are fundamentally different. Hmm... I'm following along based on the logic of trusting the foundation of a tradition and lineage.. And yeah the dismissals, but it sounds like he's quite solidly passing on the perspective (dismissals and all) of his teaching, which seems like a very valuable perspective to consider. Also.. if you really think that the teachings of the school are great then you (we) would have to disagree with the idea that high-level qigong practice could be anything like this neidan so long as it focuses on things like visualization and meditation and not on whatever the neidan methods are. The Yuxianpai and Wuliupai practitioners here don't claim that theirs is the only correct teaching, just that, if one wants to pursue the goals of Neidan, one should "avoid false Neidan schools with no lineage and without complete methods of Xing and Ming."

It sure would be nice if we could compare that photo^ and Chunyi's photo to an accomplished true Neidan practitioner's photo at a similar age. But it seems even those attainments are guarded secrets until you've actually been in the school. There's a healing qigong practice called Chi Lel, I have a book on it about people's amazing healing stories. Here is part of one titled "A New Tooth Grew in an Old Mouth": "'...One day, I was surprised to find a new tooth growing in my gums!' Mr. Zhang opened his mouth and showed a baby tooth to me. 'It's a miracle. If even a tooth can grow back, it's no wonder I feel so good after practicing Chi Lel. I figure that the rest of my internal organs must have rejuvenated themselves like my tooth has done. And on my head, black hairs have started coming back.' Mr. Zhang proudly showed me a few shreds of black among all his gray hair."... Tooth and hair regeneration are considered possible only with yangshen cultivation right? So would you say this guy has to be lying? I can't verify that the story is true. I think most if not all of the other stories are considered possible with post-heaven practice, different miraculous healings + some third eye experiences. Yesterday an SFQ student said that visualizing yourself as a pure ball of light before you ever incarnated etc is a preheaven practice. The practitioners are generally not in touch with traditional Neidan at all, the focus is on things like mindfulness and positive focus and visualization. Jaci Gran who has been with Chunyi Lin for something like 20 years didn't seem to have anything to say about the concept of preheaven cultivation. Jim Nance might... He was there for the same length of time I think. I mean if healing depletes yangshen, and if he has a way to replenish it, then that makes sense. The thing about the yin spirits making him lose hair is I think something Innersound said that Chunyi Lin has said, I dunno about that part.

Does Longmen fit the criteria for a true Neidan school having complete methods for xing and ming? Mhm but Opendao and other Neidan practitioners here consider his practices new(-age?) qigong and say it's not capable of building yuanshen. I want to ask him if he teaches "complete methods for xing and ming". But Opendao would likely say no right off the bat. That's true Chunyi does seem youthful. He is balding which is attributed to the healing (yin spirits coming out of his head as you've said) but you've said his hair would come back if he stopped and did more cave meditation. My mom was born 2 weeks before him... I think they look pretty similar in that regard, aside from the balding. Chunyi was talking about pore breathing being good for the skin once on Healing Connection and said when he visited his family he went to a bathhouse with his brothers and the difference was very apparent between his body and his brothers'. He's 56. That's interesting, does he need to do the good deeds he's doing now to progress further? Haha that would be awesome. I mean if he really can then why not?

Sorry for that. Quick fire and focus on the Emptiness, what else? Active exercises and celibacy? But what if you really are missing part of the puzzle, missing the preheaven methods that have apparently never changed, have been passed down from the original master or something. I need to be more organized so I can do things like post the reference for that. Lol "hissy fit". It might be true though.

Oh, SHO is "Small Heavenly Orbit". Here's a lil piccy. http://www.michaeleakin.com/wp-content/uploads/microcosmic-orbit-150x150.jpg Also known as the Microcosmic Orbit. Uhh other people would explain it better than me.

Innersound, some Neidan practitioners are saying that TY is meant to be a companion manual to the teachings and methods that were guarded secrets but are now taught openly but only in person. They're also saying that the translators (Pregadio for one, and maybe the TY translator but I don't claim to know in his case) are helpful but should be taken with a grain of salt because they haven't actually learned the and applied the aforementioned practices. Pregadio is an anthropology professor. So the point is that the translations would be more accurate if guided by actual experience with the topics. And also I'm still concerned about the truth of your idea that focusing on the emptiness is enough to cultivate the yuanshen. I'm wondering what CL will say. There's a free SFQ talk tonight so I could send it as a public question. It seems more like a private question considering the general audience but I really want to ask.

So what does this system say happens to people/souls who don't cultivate? Is anything lost (as long as you remain above the stage of ghost immortal)? Is it that the soul would already be immortal, but this practice allows the incarnated personality to be immortal as well or something?

I did a Command+F search on that article and found in mentioned in a footnote: "...Read in this light, the title of the Xingming guizhi refers to the oneness of xing (yin) and ming (yang)." yerp (FP's paper on ming. this https://www.academia.edu/7774666/Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence_On_the_Meanings_of_Ming_%E5%91%BD_in_Daoist_Internal_Alchemy_and_its_Relation_to_Xing_%E6%80%A7_or_Human_Nature)