Unlearner

This is definitely a question I've asked many times (mostly to myself, since I rarely had many Buddhists or Taoists to talk to until I joined this forum). However, I've also considered the opposite, why one would strive for prolonging one's life or seeking immortality. This to me seemed the more impractical of the two in my younger days, as I never really understood the purpose of being immortal. In fact, I was more fearful of having to live as an immortal than I was of dying; to have a conscious stream of memories watching as the people in the world live their lives; time no longer having any meaning; watching as those you come to know and love pass away before you, leaving you alone. I think it is important to contemplate this thought as well while you contemplate ending the cycle of rebirth, along with every possibility in between. With this in mind, allow me to share some of my thoughts in an extremely long-winded series of paragraphs which I'm sure you will become tired of reading after a while. I wouldn't say I have an answer for you, simply things that I have observed through the path I have followed. It is not particularly a strict Taoist or Buddhist view of things, as I still have much to learn about both of these before I make such a claim, but I certainly draw great influence from these philosophies. I tend to approach concepts like this in several different directions, in order to attempt to gain a more complete understanding of all the possible answers to this "problem" (if you could call it that, but I'll get to that in a moment). I try to synthesize my understandings from my studies in physics with my contemplation and studying of philosophy, because it seems only appropriate that they should match up with each other. Using this method, I have observed that there is something particular about the nature of the universe which seems to bring all sorts of different theories, both philosophical and scientific, into an agreement. I can't perfectly describe it yet, as I don't fully understand it myself, but if I were to describe it, I would say it is that which unifies everything together. It is the source from which things originate, not just at the beginning of the universe, but something that always exists and somehow permeates everything. It bestows things with their respective properties, but has no properties itself that can be observed. It is the Truth which hides behind the illusion of everything that we know, sense, and experience. I would normally refer to this as Tao, since this concept certainly follows along with many of the same ideas. However, I decided that, rather than borrow terminologies from philosophical systems and languages of which my understanding is severely limited, I have chosen to call it in my own words an "undifferentiated reality", as this seems to fit my own descriptions for myself. I call it a "reality", because it seems to somehow affects everything that both exists and does not exist. I call it "undifferentiated" because it is what originates things that, when they come into existence, become a uniquely separated duality, such as light and no light (dark), matter and no matter (space), positive and negative, etc. So what does all this have to do with ending the cycle of rebirth or immortality? To be honest, I do not know about death and reincarnation, nor do I know about immortality. None of that is contained within my understanding, regardless of any of my contemplation or studying. In my understanding, I think that these two things are different ways of striving for a similar end. This end is to not simply know, but to once again join with the undifferentiated state in which we originated before we existed. It is to return to the source, to reattain the ultimate simplicity, to find absolute harmony with everything. The goal is not to cease, nor is it to continue on, but rather to realize that both of these are illusions, beyond which lies the real Truth (though I regret using that word, I will for the sake of making this a little shorter use it in this context). To return to that Truth is the true end, so how can you return to the source when you are caught up in living your life for petty ends? To realize this is to realize (as I mentioned before) that there is no longer a "problem" of life and death to be solved; it is simply another thing to obscure the natural way of everything. Again, these are merely my own observations. As a newer, less experienced member, if anyone has anything they would like to add or contest to my response, I would be most interested in listening. I hope this may have been in some way informative, SriChi (or at least entertaining to read ).

Is this not the purpose of language and communication? We share, we discuss, we argue, we consult, and in the end hopefully everyone comes away with a little more wisdom. That or we just feel better for getting to yell at someone for a few minutes

I've noticed that, in the more recent times in my life, my memory for certain things seems to have degraded rather noticeably. When I was in school, I had a great memory for remembering pretty much everything, yet I seem to forget certain things rather quickly now. I can't be entirely sure whether this is some quirk that I'm developing (I'm still quite young), or if I may be purging my memory of events myself somehow. I seem to recall data and information with as much accuracy and quickness as I've always been able to. However, when it comes to events, details, and thoughts which I had personally, it seems my mind will suddenly go blank at times and I will forget a significant number of things. Strange enough as it sounds, I don't really mind this all that much. In fact, it seems to have given me a new perspective and allows me to focus more on the present than the past. However, I cannot discern whether it is caused by myself, that I am somehow able to forcefully purge my memories subconsciously, or if it is caused by some other reason. A perfect example of this would be that I was just now in the middle of writing up a new topic which I had titled "The Nature of Seeking". Yet, somehow about halfway through writing this, I suddenly forgot what I was writing about and even why I was writing it in the first place. Reading back through it, I was unable to pick up my original intention (I'm sure that I had one), and had to drop it completely. The only connection I can draw between the things that I've been forgetting are things that have happened to me personally, such as the details of conversations, daily events, etc. Yet, I can recall things that I didn't experience personally quite clearly, such as information or someone else's description of an event. Any thoughts on this? I don't think I'm really looking to fix it so much as I'm just curious if anyone else has had any experience with this.

Well, I am aware that, being someone who invested a lot of time in the pursuit of knowledge, I am able to train my mind to remember things in certain ways, so I think that by using my memory to recall things makes it easier for me to remember things more clearly and concisely. However, I only ever focused on doing this for recalling data, forumlae, etc, rather than for remembering past events. My memory for information works through ordering and numbering, so if I need to recall some specification of an item or whatnot, I still am above average in that. I tend to forget things like having a conversation with someone, things I've done, places I've gone, etc. So, part of me thinks that my bad memory in that aspect is that I don't use it very often, so it's been degrading over time. If this were the case, then it would simply be a natural thing, so there would be no problem really, and could be fixed at any time I like. However, another part of me suspects that I may be subconsciously forcing myself to forget things. Assuming for just a moment that this is true, I don't really feel like it's such a bad thing. I feel like it helps me to clear my mind of bias and over-thinking, and allows me to focus more on the present situation, rather than getting caught up with the past. As for the point Seeker brought up, this isn't really a problem for me, as my memory serves me well enough to perform my job well, so practicality isn't really the issue. I think it would almost be more appropriate, maintaining my previous assumption, to say that I feel like I'm training my ability to forget things more than I am losing my memory out of negligence. This is more of my focus than simply being a forgetful person, I feel like the spontaneous forgetfulness is simply a side-effect of this.

Both good points, I won't argue for or against. All that I will input into this conversation is that I just recently started using the chat on this site, I like to go there every so often to enjoy a good conversation, though admittedly they are rather seldom. As a little experiment, I've been periodically going to the chat room and just hang out there for a while as I watch some shows or do other things on the internet, and out of the time I spent on there in the last two or three days, I've only seen a handful of people use it, and not for a very long period of time. Still, my role is not to take sides, nor is it to make decisions. I am merely an observer.

This seems like a good writing exercise, I very much enjoy creative writing. You can count me in I will do my best, and will send PM when I have finished.

It could be a great idea, but please never use the word "proof" again regarding science. No scientist will ever listen to you.

Just found this, very much enjoy listening to it

I was thinking about planning a visit to the Teen How Taoist Temple in Houston, Texas. I feel like it would be an interesting place to experience in person. However, I have never been to a temple before, and I was hoping that someone else who has been before would be able to inform me of anything that might be good to know before I visit such a place. I would be greatly appreciative of any information or suggestions that are provided.

Good observations on both points, I very much agree. However, I feel that you are sort of off from what my points were aiming at. Yes, I used the Tao Teh Ching as an example, but my focus was more on the idea of nature of translations themselves. I don't particularly see where you find a contradiction based on your explanation, so I don't see why you are saying that I am false. I see where you disagreed with me on the first point, so yes perhaps that wasn't a perfect metaphor to use for this particular example, but I don't see exactly where the disagreement is in the second point. Perhaps the misunderstanding is simply based in that I try to not use extreme language. In any case, I will clarify by simply saying that I agree with your second point in that we do tend to read into things through our own experiences, so perfectly translating one persons ideas into language that another person can read to translate into the exact same ideas is not really something that can be done.

I feel like you are both seeing the same underlying idea but describing different facets of it, this idea of translation versus interpretation; perhaps we should take a moment to actually look at this idea itself. On one hand, you have the idea of translating ideas from one language into another, which I'm sure we can all recognize is not always the easiest thing, as certain ideas exist in the language of a culture that are particular to that culture. In this case, we have not only separation of cultures in distance, but in time as well, which adds a completely new dimension to the complexity. Trying to translate ideas of an ancient Chinese philosopher into concepts that can be understood by a modern-day English-speaker can understand is like trying to describe what the color blue is to someone who was born blind; some degree of interpretation (and further commentary delving into the subtleties of this interpretation, most likely) will be required. On the other hand, there is the more underlying idea of translating written language into mental concepts itself. After all, if written language were able to perfectly convey the precise ideas of an author to its reader, we would not need interpretation or explanation in the first place, and everyone who ever read the Tao Teh Ching would have a perfect idea of exactly what was meant by it when written. The Tao Teh Ching even recognizes this in the very first chapter: "Names can be named, but not the eternal name." Such is the limitation of language itself. In this way, we could even ask ourselves if there is such a thing as a "literal" interpretation. Of course there is in our idea of comparing a very loose translation to convey something to a strict, word-for-word translation of a text, but even the most literal translations cannot perfectly grasp the underlying meaning behind each word that was written by the original author, even to those of the original language. After all, as I pointed out before, there is still a very significant separation in time between the author and the reader, so a perfect translation from words to concepts even in the same language is still quite difficult to achieve.

That is a very interesting translation, and I would agree that there is a certain degree of interpretation to it, as I have never seen it written in those terms. However, I feel that it resonates quite well with the original message, especially with the last two lines; it seems to put more emphasis on the human element of this chapter.

Thank you for the suggestions, I'll be sure to keep them in mind

Absolutely, I will try to take some to share with anyone interested. Thank you very much for this, I greatly appreciate it

First post is below

Well said, I thank you for this. I suppose the idea I was going for was that my mind seems to still be imbalanced, still going through all the ups and downs, while I'm working to turn that fluctuation and wavering into stillness. In any case, I will take these words to heart and remember them in my contemplation.

I do not believe that sentimentality precedes compassion. Much of the Tao Teh Ching speaks of the sage governing and guiding the people. Why would the sage worry about such things if there were no compassion? Why would he not simply spend the rest of his life on the mountainside, letting the others run about and cause ado in their lives? While not spoken of directly, the Tao Teh Ching is rife with examples of acts of compassion performed by the sage; it simply points out how the sage manages his affairs without much ado. I think the latter part of Chapter 2 is an excellent example of this: "Therefore, the Sage manages his affairs without ado, And spreads his teaching without talking. He denies nothing to the teeming things. He rears them, but lays no claim to them. He does his work, but sets no store by it. He accomplishes his task, but does not dwell upon it. And yet it is just because he does not dwell on it That nobody can ever take it away from him" (Trans: John C H Wu) Whether you treat the people as straw-dogs, an act of compassion is still an act of compassion.

One of my favorites as well. I can spend hours just reading koans and contemplating them. The self that can be seen is not the eternal self? or something like that A wonderful teacher I had many years ago once said that the wonderful part about reality is that the whole can be greater than simply the sum of all its parts. I like to contemplate this occasionally, what do you think?

Very well said, I thank you for this. I will definitely follow up on Adyashanti, from your description it seems that it would be very beneficial. As much as I don't like to admit it, I feel this is very true of myself. In spite of a lot of the confidence I have in my abilities, I do not always hold the same idea for myself as a person (I wasn't the greatest person in my younger days, I had some of issues with angry and violent behavior). I have been working to improve this, but it is something I still find myself going back to periodically out of habit. I thank you for your kind words, and I will continue to improve this negative self-image I have of myself. One thing I have to say about this is that I feel as if I may be exerting myself too much trying to do this. In my understanding, it seems that it should be very easy to do, but the fact that I'm not having an easy time with it adds to the frustration. I think I may be getting too impatient with myself, wanting everything to happen all at once instead of allowing things to progress naturally. I will try to remember your advice as I continue on the path, thank you. I feel the same, that perhaps I should slow down and let what I have gained settle for a moment. However, at the moment I seem to find myself lacking in things that I find to do that are relaxing, as I do not have a lot of work to do with my job and, being kind of in the middle of nowhere, there are not very many things to do here, so I find myself with an excessive amount of free time, which makes me want to simply continue with my studies. However, I will try to focus on this more, thank you. I do have the same sort of ups and downs; one day I will feel that I'm making real progress, and not too long after I will feel that I haven't changed at all. I'm trying to figure out how I can stabalize this to make a more consistent and balanced mind. The only practices I'm familiar with enough to do on a regular basis are the forms I learned from Wing Chun, Siu Lim Tao and Chum Kiu. I'm not very familiar with any yogas or other non-martial energy practices. However, I will continue to find what I can to alleviate this, and perhaps something will come up.

Not a problem, I don't know how it got double posted in the first place, but thank you for sorting it out

Sorry, editing trouble, I think it's been sorted out

Allow me to provide a little bit of background on myself before I get to the main issue. I was raised as a Catholic for the first 18 years of my life, and while I do appreciate some of the values that it instilled in me now, eventually I found myself not agreeing with many of the core beliefs that it preached, and I decided to part with it to find a way that suited me. Primarily, I was focused in the sciences, especially physics; I majored in physics and math when I went to college, though I never finished for personal reasons (though I do plan on returning this fall to complete my degree). Currently, I have a job as a type of explosives technician, though I do not forsee myself staying with this as a career (although it still keeps me involved with some chemistry and physics). Unlike most of my fellow science enthusiasts, however, I also take an avid interest in the philosophies that accompany my studies of the way of the universe. I was first exposed to Taoism and Buddhism about 5 years ago, and while it took some time for me to take a real interest in it, I have since begun studying them with less whimsical curiosity and more actual interest in following them. I, personally, find that they tend to flow quite nicely with each other, something that I was rather astounded to see when I first came to this realization. Coincidentally, around this time I found a book called "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra, which seemed to support so many things that I had been thinking for so long, yet prior to which I had no way of sharing these ideas with anyone I would know. Since then, almost all of my reading consists of Taoist, Buddhist, and scientific literature. When able, I enjoy practicing martial arts and the accompanying breathing and meditative exercises that go with them (up until a few months ago, I had been studying Wing Chun under an excellent teacher). Unfortunately, I seem to have come to a point where I am having a very difficult time finding my way from here. My current job requires me to move around quite a bit, and now it seems that I have ended up in the middle of nowhere, and I'm probably going to be stuck here for a while, with nothing to practice but mixed martial arts, which I have very little interest in, as it holds no real value for me other than the physical training. So, for now it seems I'm on my own with my studies and meditation. (Apologies if that seemed like an excessively long introduction to the topic, but it seemed more appropriate than having to explain it later.) The problem I seem to be having is that, while I am generally benefitting from my continuation of my reading, I am getting this feeling as if I am being overcome with all the ideas I'm trying to take in at once. I have not been following Taoism or Buddhism for very long, and though I readily accept the ideas they teach, my mind is having a very difficult time adjusting to the change, as I was raised under many of the various western philosophies which seem to go in the opposite direction. To make this more difficult, I do not know nor have I ever known personally anyone who has had any similar interest in these ideas, so I feel very much on my own with this. I just cannot seem to take the ideas that I am learning and turn them into something that I can actually practice regularly, because everything I've ever learned prior to this, and everything that all the people around me have ever learned goes against the direction I'm trying to go. To put it into a metaphor, I feel like I'm caught in the strong current of a river. A river of selfishness, pride, personal agendas, social conventions, and professional structures, and it's taking all the energy I have to simply not go with this flow that it is so easy to get caught up in, to keep my mind still, empty, and present. I can't just throw everything away, give everything up and remove myself from the situation (Well, I could, but that's not going to get me very far anyway. Also, I actually already did that once; good story, but I'll save it for a later time). I just feel overwhelmed with what I'm trying to do, as if there is some force that is crushing my mind. The ironic part is that I've always been incredibly successful in my professional life, I tend to somehow be successful in everything I do, and I'm a very quick and thorough learner. It's just so easy to get caught up in the same mindset that everyone else has, distracted by the same illusions of success and failure, focused on the same goals and accomplishments that people desire to achieve. So, with all that said, I need guidance from someone who is more experienced than I am. If I carry on by myself as I have been, it is so incredibly difficult that it's having a lot of negative effects on me. I would be incredibly grateful if someone would be able to point me in a direction, give me something that I can do to work on it, or even something as simple as just being able to talk to someone who shares the same views that I have. I feel like all I can do right now to alleviate it is to distract myself from it with various things, but it's just a temporary fix, it does nothing to improve anything. If you took the time to read all this, I thank you for at least doing that much.

Concerning hell, I like to recall an excerpt from a quote I found from Zen master Pao-chih: "The ignorant fear hell, but the wise consider it no different from heaven. If the mind is never aroused toward objects, then wherever you walk is the site of enlightenment." -Pao-chih excerpt from "The Zen Reader", edited by Thomas Cleary

I am new to this forum, so I feel that I may be stepping a little out of my element in choosing to comment here, but I simply wanted to share an insight I had regarding this very idea. With regards to compassion, I feel that there is no contradiction between the Buddhist and Taoist ideas on it. While it is true that many ideas in both tend to point towards being separate, aloof from the problems of others, not striving with others, etc, an idea I first had when I began studying, there is a subtle, yet significant difference between realizing the Way and following the Way. Rather than try to forumlate my own words to describe this idea, I will share this koan: "Anyone walking about Chinatowns in America with observe statues of a stout fellow carrying a linen sack. Chinese merchants call him Happy Chinaman or Laughing Buddha. This Hotei lived in the T'ang dynasty. He had no desire to call himself a Zen master or to gather many disciples about him. Instead he walked the streets with a big sack into which he would put gifts of candy, fruit, or doughnuts. These he would give to children who gathered around him in play. He established a kindergarten of the streets. Whenever he met a Zen devotee he would extend his hand and say: "Give me one penny." And if anyone asked him to return to a temple to teach others, again he would reply: "Give me one penny." Once he was about his play-work another Zen master happened along and inquired: "What is the significance of Zen?" Hotei immediately plopped his sack down on the ground in silent answer. "Then," asked the other, "what is the actualization of Zen?" At once the Happy Chinaman swung the sack over his shoulder and continued on his way." -Zen Koan source: http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/12happychinaman.html Immediately, upon reading this, I felt as if a light had fallen upon something I had been ignoring, the difference between this "significance" and the true "actualization". I feel that this applies to both Buddhism and Taoism, that while learning to follow the Way will lead you towards emptying your mind, not striving with others, and seeing the illusion of what is before you, to actually follow the way necessitates compassion in everything you do. If I am in any way wrong, someone please jump in and correct me.

Hello and good evening, I stumbled across this forum just a few moments ago and immediately knew that I had found something worthwhile. It has been quite a few years since I was first introduced to eastern philosophy, though I am finally beginning to take great interest in it as I become more and more focused and serious in my studies in philosophy. I feel as if, in the last few months, something within me is pushing me to contemplate these ideas. A short background on myself, I have always been a student of science, specifically quantum and nulear physics. I do not have my degree, but I currently work as a specialized technician and first responder in a profession known as Explosive Ordnance Disposal. Though my interests have always been in the sciences, I do not feel that this is mutually exclusive from studying Taoism and Buddhism as I have been, as I believe that they complement each other quite nicely: science, the study of that which focuses on the external, and Taoism and Buddhism, the study of that which focuses on the internal. If there is anyone who is interested in continuing this discussion, I can elaborate on my views, but I will not delve into that now. In all honesty, however, I am in great need of guidance in my studies. My own contemplation and reading has brought me to see a great many things that I had missed before, however I seem to be having difficulty adjusting my mind to accept certain ideas and breaking old habits that are hindering any further progression. I hope that by reading and interacting with those more experienced, I may be able to overcome these obstacles and move forward with finding harmony with the Way. I look forward to meeting anyone who wishes to contact me.