Nungali

..... Oh, wait ... ' Actually now I feel like I understand Taoism even less than before."

To me its a philosophy and an attitude that I 'practice' . Its an approach to life and its also in a way a basis of practicing Magick .. you work with the forces eg , every Aussie kid of my era was taught never to try to swim back directly to shore when carried out to sea in a rip , swim with it or across it , wait, do not panic , the current might even circle around and deliver you back to the beach . In Magick, a ritual operation should include the right astrological timing , a 'tale wind' . Of course, all this requires a knowledge of natural forces and how things work . A few times I have had to cross the flooded river here , which can be extremely dangerous , its not a matter of just throwing yourself in and going with the flow until you get to the other side , one must be aware of the location and the resultant force of upwellings, sucking down vortexes , surface signs of hidden objects , calm places , raging places , dangerous areas of the riverbanks , safe places of exists ....

I would go with the 'perception' ... as usual the problem lies with the perception ... that our consciousness needs to be on the rim ( fixed in experience ), while the perception should be that consciousness needs to be fixed at the axle ( that is not the experience itself but what we should be learning * from that experience . ) * this brings to mind the Sufi expression ; 'learning how to learn ' ... it is not considered that real learning comes naturally, its something we have to learn to do ... to allow it to actually get in and create change . I have seen a LOT of this with people , some do the same wrong thing and suffer over and over again, even in the one incarnation and even when they (sorta) know the problems they are causing , while others learn quickly and move on to the next thing . Feeling, and thought, and ecstasy Are but the cerements of Me. Thrown off like planets from the Sun Ye are but satellites of the One. But should your revolution stop Ye would inevitably drop Headlong within the central Soul, And all the parts become the Whole. Sloth and activity and peace, When will ye learn that ye must cease? - The Rite of Jupiter

Ummm .... quoting yourself and responding ? You aren't going to start arguing with yourself are you ?

Any 'natural principles of reality' would relate to nature , various forms of physics , the four fundamental powers , things like that . I dont see that those things need a God and i think any atheist / materialist would not have trouble accepting these natural forces of order and balance . However there is a whole lot of concepts people call 'natural law and order' that are not really , they are actually based on human needs and comfort and the way we philosophically prefer to live * (but not in reality , eg. when we see the world situation throughout history and the present ) , usually extremely modified by our own culture . Eg 'Thou shalt not kill ' ...... 'each ' other ... but maybe we can kill 'the ' other ( if they are not 'really human' , the wrong color, religion, or really, any excuse we can come up with .) I find these types are the most likely to believe in the 'standard God' as in the mainstream 'western traditions' . * same with ecology and 'saving the planet' ; all types of ecology are valid 'for the planet', including run away greenhouse effects ( they have happened in the past when no humans present ) . It isnt 'the planet' that needs saving , its our comfortable lifestyles and associations we want to save ... even if that comfort is centered on appreciating cute furry animals or diversity of species ... its all geared towards our comfort or fear of 'un-comfort' .

You can use this as your picture ;

I am thinking of two things here : Sorrow and suffering seems to exist when self is identified with ( or impacted by ) old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, or despair, but not when 'self' is seen as something beyond those things . Of course we suffer from pain sickness and old age physically but 'philosophically ' if one has self centered beyond those things then they dont have the same impact . A physical example would be , and I have heard a few feel this, as I have ( and its easier to start with an extremity , as opposed to an internal or body problem , like the spine ) if you have a bad pain or injury in your arm , do not think 'I am in pain , this hurts me ' think , my arm (or even 'this arm ' ) is in pain . And the pain seems more bearable . The other thing is I dont think consciousness 'gets stuck ' I think 'experience' is embedded in parts of consciousness that do not survive death , hence are 'lost' along with the body and "memories' . If life experience and lessons are not learned I feel we have to repeat them until they are , hence possibly making some endless circular 'skip' like an LP record 'having' to go over the same lesson over and over again , for who knows how long ... IMO this being 'trapped on the wheel ' and does not lead to 'liberation ' . If incarnations experiences are learned and held by 'that which survives and actual knowledge and incarnation experiences are learnt 'in spirit' , they create a 'firm block' or level of foundation to 're incarnate' for the next 'set of lessons ' . We are still incarnating but now instead of being trapped on some blind repetitive roundabout , now each 'cycle' is a spiral , going ever upwards and outwards . Or another way of looking at it is ; Incarnation has not stopped , but we are not 'trapped on the wheel ' , as it where but centered on the 'axle' , which is actually moving forward ( if we can get some progress / 'traction' happening ) . No, I cant cite any of this from Buddhist scripture .. it comes from my tradition and my conversations with 'upstairs ' .

I'm not going to say what that means 'down here ' .

A man goes to a dinner party and they serve Mexican food, he realizes there are lots of beans and other farty things there and hopes, like they usually do for him, that they do not generate too much 'internal gas.' He feels a fart building up and instead of holding it and the pressure rising to an even bigger noisier one and noticing that the family dog has slipped in under the table , he decides to release some pressure and hopes they blame the dog . Its a little noisy and a bit smelly and the host ; " Rover ! Get out from under there and go outside ! " Well, that worked . But a bit later he feels it again . Fortunately the dog has sneaked back in under the table . So he lets off a rather substantial one . The host ; " ROVER ! What did I just say , get out from under there and do not come back . " " Ha " thinks the man " Poor dog , but at least I am not exposed . " Then towards the end of dinner , he feels a massive one building . he looks under the table when no one is paying attention .... thank God the dog has sneaked back in and is now lying at his feet . He lets off the fart , trying to not make it too loud but that does extend its duration . Every one looks at the host , waiting for the admonition . " ROVER ! How many times do I have to tell you , do not get under there, especially at dinner time , now GET OUT and dont come back ... or that guy is eventually gonna end up shitting all over you ! "

I had to look that one up. Bangs = fringe ?

" I dont know what you are referring to , but ours is certainly bigger ! " said the American .

Are you claiming to have a large bum than us ?

You dont see the grumpiness ? Not to mention the look of calculated evil !

Silly ! Jesus IS the Buddha ! Dont forget I did study Comparative Religion at University ! However that University was in Australia .

Meet me in my new thread for discussion ; ' The Buddha actually wrote the Tao te Ching '

I'm not tired yet I just woke up Maddie said she was tired ... not agitated maybe she got tired of you putting words in her mouth ? .

My powers of feeling and mental perception indicate about 9 yo . That's fairly mature for a cat .

may I ask ; is that really a picture of you ... or are you some old fat bald guy sitting in an apartment complex in Russia in a white singlet smoking a cigar and playing on the internet ?

Wow ! and you did that without obliterating him !

Without cultural diversity humanity could be in danger of becoming a mono culture ... and we know how unhealthy that can get !

( see below )

Of course . Next time I go caving I shall take more caution and wear the proper helmet .

Ummm ... it was a joke . if you like I can post a long rave about the exposure of Tibetan Buddhism and how effed up it can be , but that is from a past social aspect and a modern political one , not philosophical or theological . About how many young boys have been abused , how many serfs where abused ( yes surfs, up to 1950 ! ) Dalai lama links to CIA and how many monks get looked after in USA due to those links much more than USA citizens etc etc . So I do know about the 'other side' ... and as you yourself no doubt realize ...all sorts of corruption are pretty much across the board for all big organized religions .