Nungali

out of one rabbit hole of deflection into another Or , was the OP and the OP video about Indian ancient history off topic and this thread was about colonialism all along ?

Ooooo ! I'm gonna have to read her too ! You know, the way I first heard about Marjia Gimbutas ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology) - which opened up a whole new page on history for me in Europe and led to an education in things like a different view on early pre IE societies , matriarchy and that ancient Euros ( and nearly all of 'us ' ) where 'black' - dark skinned - ) was, I was on history forum and some Indian guys where 'doing the usual' and one started ranting about ' that bitch Marja Gimbutas ' and the other responded ' she is a real s**t ' . I had never heard of her and wondered what on earth she could have done for some Indians to obviously hate her so much . Apparently she had dared to suggest IE came from somewhere other than India . Both of them where immediately expelled . The history site has acknowledged it has a problem in the Asian area with ' The Indian problems ' . It seems fuelled by politics , nationalism , strongly affirmed religious beliefs , issues about tribe, territory caste , etc and arguments about things like if Jats are regarded as Kshatriyas, while others assign Vaishya or Shudra varna to them - such discussions are now banned there .

Nice diversion .... but rather 'revealing' about your 'position ' ... but let's go back a bit . ASIDE from Indian politics ... did the Indian PM make those blunders relating to INDIAN HISTORY depicted in that video OR NOT ? The video isnt criticising what you are outlining is it ? Which is a totally different subject, that is ; The Indian acknowledgement that obvious BS is said by Indians (some in important positions ) about Indian history . This whole dance over 4 pages has been rather 'transparent '

A doubt sewer is the plural of doubt sowers - and sewerage is the finished product ; Eg . I have double sewerage on my genes

No . Maintain belief and do not watch it . Update your medicine glasses .

Interesting . 'Tamed' from what , and into what , and by whom ?

Another video this time one and a half hours long ! Here is a shorter one .... a pity I cant read the script I can only get a visual idea that the 'fake history of India ' is even mocked by Indians . This is from India Media Group ; ITG ( includes ' India today' with that publication alone having a readership of around 8 million . )

'takes one to see one ' Only if it can be a process that has more lineal logic and actual response to actual queries and not a whole lot of made up stuff and ignoring, game and word play Then if you ARE aware of such conditions , you should be more careful of whose youtubes you pay attention to . There are much better main stream Indian scientists around than wacky youtube guy . Let's look at some trends in recent Indian science ... oh wait ... are you going to claim 'cow tailing ' to the west ? The new head of the Indian Council for Historical Research wants to re-examine established notions about the country's history Politics has always used history as a tool and agent. The move is reminiscent of the appointment of Murli Manohar Joshi as human resources development minister in Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s Bharatiya Janata Party government. Joshi made a number of appointments in crucial academic positions that were criticised by academic historians at the time as attempts to saffronise the curriculum and position Hindu scriptural dicta as academic thought. When prime minister Narendra Modi mentioned India’s “slave mentality of 1,200 years” in the Lok Sabha, he was asserting that it was not only during the 200 years of British dominion that Indians were enslaved, but in the preceding 1,000 years of Muslim-rule as well. The 1,000-year number is incorrect in any case; Muslim monarchs of various dynasties controlled Delhi for about 600 years, and even less in other parts of the subcontinent. In January, Hindutva adherents on Twitter created a furore over Tipu Sultan being featured on Karnataka’s Republic Day float. A number of Indian historians have championed Sultan as one of the few kings who refused to submit to England’s military advantage. An extreme version of the efforts to delegitimise rulers of this age is found in the works of historian PN Oak (quoted often by a member of the BJP, Subramanian Swamy). Oak claims that the Taj Mahal was once a Shiva temple named “Tejo Mahalaya” that the Mughals simply took over, changing the name slightly. Religious history, in itself, is a useful field given how society is shaped by faith. Archaeologists like BB Lal and SR Rao have even sought to determine the truth of events related in the Mahabharata through their research. Unfortunately, much of this work has been literalist in approach, reminiscent of the Biblical archaeology movement. This perception is reinforced by the treatment that Wendy Doniger’s work on Hinduism has received. Dinanath Batra, the senior RSS member who ensured Doniger’s publishers pulped her book, advised the previous BJP government on education policy. When the BJP was last in power, bitter squabbles arose over whether Hindutva ideologue Veer Savarkar’s picture should go up in Parliament or not. Nehru – a fond target of the Hindutva right – will probably come under more attack, and his more conservative contemporary Vallabhbhai Patel will be championed. Yet, even as the RSS makes strenuous efforts to refashion history to suit its own needs, it must be pointed out to anybody excessively alarmed (or pleased) by this, that official histories have a pretty small role to play in today’s world. For example, the current set of history textbooks published by the National Council for Educational Research and Training are truly well-written, with little political interference and featuring the latest research. Most politically aware Indians, though, simply ignore them and pick such history off the Internet, that best fits their preconceived notions. Moreover, most of the primary research is now done outside India. More academics in India seem to be keeping away from the hard grind of primary-source research, an attitude that American Sanskrit scholar Sheldon Pollock has described as “cultural genocide”. That, perhaps, is something we should be worrying about more. https://scroll.in/article/669435/five-things-hindutva-historians-are-obsessed-with and ' Is Indian Civilization a Myth?' by Sanjay Subrahmanyam. 2013 ( Sanjay Subramanyam is the son of K. Subrahmanyam and his wife Sulochana.[2] His father, K. Subrahmanyam, was a prominent expert on strategic affairs. Sanjay has an older sister and two older brothers, namely Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, who retired from the Indian Foreign Service as its head, and serves now as India's Minister of External Affairs; and S. Vijay Kumar, who followed their father into the highly prestigious Indian Administrative Service.[3] Subrahmanyam is married to a UCLA historian of modern France, Caroline Ford. Sanjay Subrahmanyam did his BA and MA in economics from the University of Delhi. He received his PhD in 1987 in economics from the Delhi School of Economics on the topic of "Trade and the Regional Economy of South India, c. 1550–1650".[1 Subrahmanyam taught economic history and comparative economic development at the Delhi School of Economics till 1995. He then moved to Paris as Directeur d'études in the École des hautes études en sciences sociales, where he taught history of the Mughal empire, and the comparative history of early modern empires till 2002.[citation needed] In 2002, Subrahmanyam moved to Oxford as the first holder of the newly created Chair in Indian History and Culture. In 2004 he became the Navin and Pratima Doshi Chair in Indian History at UCLA, and a year later, in 2005, he became the founding Director of UCLA's Center for India and South Asia.[2] In 2014 he was appointed to the Irving and Jean Stone Endowed Chair in Social Sciences at UCLA.[citation needed] In 2012, Subrahmanyam was awarded the first Infosys Prize in Humanities, for his 'path-breaking contribution to history'.[4] He also served as a Humanities jury member for the prize from 2019.[5] He was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2009 and as a corresponding fellow to the British Academy in 2016. Bryn Mawr College in Pennsylvania selected Dr. Subrahmanyam as the 2009 Mary Flexner Lecturer. In 2012, he won the Infosys Prize for humanities for his "path-breaking contribution to history". He was elected professor and to the chair Histoire Globale de la Première Modernité at the Collège de France in 2013. On 67 February 2017, Subrahmanyam received an honoris causa doctorate from the Université catholique de Louvain.[6] The Martine Aublet Prize for 2018 was awarded to Subrahmanyam for his book, L'inde sous les yeux de l'Europe: mots, peuples, empires (Alma Editeur, 2018), by the Musée de Quai Branly.[7] In February 2019, Sanjay Subrahmanyam was awarded the Dan David Prize for History (jointly with Kenneth Pomeranz, Chicago).[8] Historian Srinath Raghavan wrote of Subrahmanyam in 2013,[9] NOW what are the credentials of Niesh Oak Nilesh Oak holds BS & MS in Chemical Engineering and Executive MBA. He is interested in Astronomy, Archeology, Geology, Genetics, Quantum Mechanics, Economics, Ancient narratives and Philosophy. .... ' interested in ' He published his first book, ‘When did the Mahabharata War Happen?:The Mystery of Arundhati’ in 2011 He published his second book, ‘The Historic Rama – Indian Civilization at the end of Pleistocene’ in 2014. ] On 'Is Indian Civilisation a Myth' ; " In the book, I argued that an obsession with the idea of a “civilisation” in India (or for that matter, in any part of the world) quickly becomes a claim about the fixity of certain relationships and cultural values. The rhetoric of “clash of civilisations” used by Samuel Huntington and others stemmed directly from this conception. And as such, it is ahistorical or not useful for the purposes of the historian most of the time. I was especially influenced by an essay by the American historian David Ludden, called ‘History outside Civilization’, about the importance of mobility for South Asia. Basically, my point is that when people talk of “civilisation” they immediately fall into the trap of constructing a Golden Age from which we have deviated. They become fundamentalists defending that Golden Age. This is the same problem we see in some parts of Europe today, where people like Alain Finkielkraut or Éric Zemmour imagine that there was a pure European civilisation which is now being contaminated. As it happens, there is a dangerous alliance between some of these elements in Europe and similar elements in India. On the other hand, I have no problem with a word like “culture”, which allows for historical change and is far more flexible in its connotations "

What ? Europeans got whole lot of different and non English scientists to fake the date of IVC evidence to cover up the fact and or 'justify' the nasty stuff the British did to India . I really think you have messed up your own thread here . Let's just say ; yes , India did have smart and intelligent and 'civilised ' people living in it 14.000 years back . ( And Yes, the way to get to Antarctica from India is by going directly south . )

And, I suppose you are not accusing me of this subtle unaware conditioning ? No matter how many posts I have made about this particular subject to show you I am well aware of the dynamic . But I AM accusing YOU of having a 'certain subtle conditioning '

Maybe retitle this thread 'What the nasty colonisers did to the Indians' , remove the stuff about anthropology and archaeology ... and we will probably whole heartedly agree with you !

? 'Native informants' have always been a huge part in the collation of anthropological research . Thats why anthropologists go out 'into the field' , live with tribes , adopt their ways while they do it , and even sometimes undertake initiation into their societies . I mean, just look at some of the stuff I have posted about Australian indigenous . Where did you think a large proportion of that info comes from ? - 'native informants ' . and its not JUST IF someone is a native informant either .... it also depends on whether they are 'crackers' or not ! That is, making weird claims that are obviously wrong as some type of 'excuse' when confronted with facts . Ah yes ... those Indian researches that agree with us non cranks must be agents of western academia . And Marxists ... dont forget the Marxists . That link virtually says nothing in its 2 paragraphs of info . It does admit right at the beginning " The recently concluded Swadeshi Indology Conference in Chennai was historic in more ways than one. For a change, the mainstream media (MSM) did not cry foul ... " and the gist of it states : " The conference brought together scholars from various parts of the globe who were interested in the topic not in a reductive academic sense, which often produces knowledge about India through a subject-object binary as in Western Indology, but in an integral and organic sense. The paper presenters did not have to use repetitive Western theoretical chicanery, the hallmark of many academic conferences, where box-office intellectuals/academics meet and sustain a mutual admiration society. Here the topics of research were the researchers’ way of life; the researchers lived their research " We already had this discussion about the word civilisation . If you really want to know who gets to decide what it means , I would suggest people who use and study that language ... that is English etymologists . Just like Hindu linguists get to decide what asabhya and sabhya means . Civilisation : Civilizations are intimately associated with and often further defined by other socio-politico-economic characteristics, such as centralization, the domestication of both humans and other organisms, specialization of labour, culturally-ingrained ideologies of progress and supremacism, monumental architecture, taxation, societal dependence upon farming and expansionism.[3][4][5][7][8][9] . Civilizations are organized densely-populated settlements divided into hierarchical social classes with a ruling elite and subordinate urban and rural populations, which engage in intensive agriculture, mining, small-scale manufacture and trade. Civilization concentrates power, extending human control over the rest of nature, including over other human beings.[11] Civilization, as its etymology (see below) suggests, is a concept originally associated with towns and cities. The earliest emergence of civilizations is generally connected with the final stages of the Neolithic Revolution, culminating in the relatively rapid process of urban revolution and state-formation, a political development associated with the appearance of a governing elite " - Wiki. - you dont like what the word means ? You think English linguists are some type of fascists by declaring what their word means and Indians and Chinese should be able to change the meaning to suit their whim and back up their claims . Oh yes, very clear that you state there is a deep rooted assumption in the kind of statements I made ... but you are not accusing me of anything . We did this - Toby Wilkenson ... evidence based research ... etc . Oh yes, shocking and infuriating to 'many' ... but not me of course even though I just explained it above . so i wonder why you keep harping on it ! But I dont want to rain on your emotive parade A triple LOL followed by an "Ohhhhhh ! " Good one ! if you knew ANYTHING about Egyptology you would have encountered ' Afrocentric ' opposition . Its not 'their own narrative' we need , its their own research and scientists . Due to this and the Chinese contribution ( for example ) our knowledge has increased . I urge you to look up modern scientific writings on ( that come from all sorts of people ... you do realise that one can be a scientists and a black African or - and not harp on this past -and in some cases lingering - racial divide BS ) 'evidence based research ' , 'evidence based practice ' and 'Metascience' .

A couple of times when driving I have seen joggers running along the road, I stopped the car and " Quick ! Hop in, you will get there a lot faster in this . "

" Dr. Steven Greer, a onetime Lenoir N C emergency room physician turned widely-read and followed UFO expert, figures this is the perfect time to spike the ball in the end zone and double down on his increasingly far-out claims — that he and his followers can meditate and in essence “summon” “trans-dimensional” alien space ships, almost at will." “Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind” is his victory-lap follow-up to 2017’s “Unacknowledged.” It’s a flurry of wild claims, dubious “experts,” Ad hominem attacks on doubt-sewers, (aka “fascist demagogues” of “the national security and media state”), clip after clip of sci-fi movies mixed in with newsreel footage. And there are cherry-picked inter-title quotes from thinkers, scientists and others — read by narrator Jeremy Piven — as well as on camera endorsements" " Go ahead and start your hate comment now, because kids — if you can’t see through this bulls–t, you need to update your medicine glasses. " Greer is the King of Trumpish “many people tell me,” and “a member of the military” and “a person from the Royal Family… who doesn’t want to be named” assertions. " Greer comes back later to reveal a frank discussion about the military-media-National Security State apparatus trying to prepare the world for “interplanetary war…and Force the Return of Christ,” with the Crown Prince of Liechtenstein. https://rogersmovienation.com/2020/04/14/documentary-review-meditating-meetings-with-e-t-close-encounters-of-the-fifth-kind/ Well, good on em ! Its often hard to find aliens ... they sneaky

No I am not missing that point at all . I have written on this very subject many times on TDBs . I have also cited Toby Wilkensons's preface to ' Genesis of the Pharaohs' as an excellent expose of these past researches and an introduction to 'evidence based research ' . And Wilkenson points out how archaeology has advanced since the study of the subject has increased in places like India and Africa and other places - actually, if you think India has it bad , its much worse in Africa - but I have educated historian contacts there too that fill me on new discoveries and developments . I have told you numerous times I am in contact with such people and often discuss things with them . Many Indian scholars have trouble with crank Indian youtubes as well and as I have said many times ; they fight amongst themselves .... and that fight is usually between the crank youtuber and the Indian academics you mention . You do realise that a driving ambition to " ....wrest control from these academics for the past 20 odd years, just so Indian scholars can get a chance to put their opinions out ... " is possibly clouding the research results and conclusions , just like the attempt was to mix up 'western superiority ' with research ? Eg ; one's definition of 'a civilisation ' . Just for further info I am not pushing any particular group or origin point . I am a multi hypothesis person . I think things manifest the way nature dictates , and common sense usually supplies an answer . Humans where around from an early period , they travelled all over the place , groups have multi-origins , there is no such thing as a pure group, sub species or 'race ', we all come from 'somewhere else ' , we are all mixed up , 'back migration' is common sense ... etc etc . Such is my ' derangement ' .

Dont be put off by the word hallucination . It has picked up wrong connotations ; basically its an experience a person swears is real .... that others cannot witness . This doesnt mean the experience isnt 'real' . IMO it makes little difference whether we use the word hallucination, possessed , demon, fantasy, etc . They are tags for a process not many understand . What is needed is to understand what is going on and treat the cause and not the symptom . The link I gave you , if you read it carefully offers a self treatment and a solution .

Tabby cat .... tabi socks .

I dont need to 'trust you ' on that . It can happen like that . I recently posted this : " ... one woman was working in a garden when an unseen man addressed her. Another man described sudden loud noises and voices he heard while riding in a bus.. All patients describe voices as having the quality of a real voice, sometimes louder, sometimes softer, than normal voices. The experience they describe is quite unlike thoughts or fantasies. When things are seen they appear fully real. For instance a patient described being awakened one night by Air Force officers calling him to service of his country. He got up and was dressing when he noticed their insignia wasn't quite right; then their faces altered. With this he knew they were of The Other Order and struck one hard in the face. He hit the wall and injured his hand. He could not distinguish them from reality until he noticed the insignia. Most patients soon realize that they are having experiences that others do not share, and for this reason learn to keep quiet about them. Many suffer insults,threats and attacks .... " https://selfdefinition.org/hearing-voices/Wilson-Van-Dusen-The-Presence-of-Spirits-in-Madness.pdf

It is not the textual evidence that is dismissed 'just because' . It is certain people's interpretation of textual evidence . Some Indian scholar's interpretations seem more valid than others . Eg. Tilak gave lots of textual evidence , astronomy, ritual analysis , etc to show the Vedic Homeland was in the Arctic and they migrated down though Central Asia into north India . Since that was written, science has moved on and discovered a lot more , so Tilak is out of fashion , unpopular and sometimes raged against . They are the reasons I dismiss Tilak's interpretation of text . That does not mean I am rejecting a particular interpretation ' just because' it is religious text .

Now you have done it ! Thats one of my favourite subjects ! Amongst the remains of the oldest ocean going boats yet found ( off the coast of Oman ) included ; - fragments of reed boats - lumps of bitumen, imprinted with reed bundles, ropes and mats , an Indus valley ivory comb, an Indus valley copper trading seal, various Indian carnelian beads, and quantities of broken pottery containers from the Indus valley A copper axe and a necklace of copper beads, both of possible Indus valley origin. We dont have much as far as images go though It is thought the birds where used as a navigation aid . But maybe the carvers of these images where not as skilled as the boat builders ? Here is a model of the concept from British Museum Some people dont think its possible but check this out ; The longest known raft voyage in history , started in Ecuador went 13,000 km across the Pacific and ended up landing just up the coast from my location ( east coast Australia ) ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vital_Alsar_Pacific_raft_expeditions Then there is that whole 'Eden in the East ' cultural dispersal idea for an originating centre of civilisation - that relies wholly (and is central to the theories about origins , especially of Chinese , Americans and Polynesians ) on very early sea craft skills . I think he thinks that as well But hindupedia doesnt seem to . Its a matter of translation and comparison of often obscure texts . I have been witness to enough discussion , debate and outright fight .... amongst fellow Hindus themselves .... including that all Hindus originally came from the Arctic .

Yep .... it helps you not to hang on to the passed .

There is a 'path' from India to Antarctica ? " That Yama's kingdom was in India is no doubt .... the realm ruled by Yama is said to be the lower heavens adjoining Earth, though his realm extends through the universe in the upper and middle regions of the earth. .... Scriptures say that the land between the Vātarani (also known as Vasātapta[21]) and Vaivasvati rivers was Yama's Kingdom. ...... Yama's kingdom celebrated as a joyful place .... Yama's domain was no tyrannical kingdom ..." http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Yama#Yama.27s_Kingdom Sounds more like Airyana Vaeja in the Palmir's

Oh look ! They even went down to Antarctica .... in the ice age .

I am not surprised . Some of humans most significant positive achievements need not be measured by complex technologies . Just the memory factor alone in pre literate societies is staggering (unless compared to the few modern 'memory genius' people about today ). As far as visionaries go ... I posted this before ... researches in various fields of anthropology are rather stunned by this revelation about the history of Wunan Law ... the first and maybe only record we have of an artist having a visionary experience and communicating it (as opposed to political or martial impetus - eg the to and fro of 'War Lords' ) that created a great change and evolutionary leap in human society . The rock art is still there that tells the story . The descendant interpreters and holders of the tradition are still there, keeping the oral interpretations of the artistic record . The artefacts are still there ! - the stone meeting table of the original gathering and agreements with lines of stones radiating out showing the directions and paths of all the tribes that came to, took part in and left this ancient conference . (top of p 6 ) http://www.ifrao.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/31-1-Doring.pdf Ungudman and Banggal ; these men, as well as being respected elders and holders of this tradition and ancient history are also acknowledged and consulted naturalists , ecologists , translators ( some Aboriginals I know can speak over 5 languages as well as English ) , published educators , etc . Well, I posted a link to info on that, with a map to show the path ..... the ; 'look India no. 1 ! ' post . Errrm no , not at all . I meant ; " - just out of curiosity .... I think by now we know how you feel about the idea of an ' Aryan incursion' from outside of India as a component to also make up the Indian identity (the 'gene pool' of the modern Indian subcontinent ) but how do you feel about the addition also , of these two components ; Ancestral Austro-Asiatic (AAA) and Ancestral Tibeto-Burman (ATB) ? " Was it that unclear ? I'll try again ; " I think by now we know how you feel about the idea of an ' Aryan incursion' from outside of India as a component to make up the Indian identity (the 'gene pool' of the modern Indian subcontinent ) but how do you feel about the addition also , of these two components ; Ancestral Austro-Asiatic (AAA) and Ancestral Tibeto-Burman (ATB) ? " ... that are said to make up the Indian identity (the 'gene pool' of the modern Indian subcontinent ) that is : do you feel the same way about the components of AAA and ATB , being from a country outside India and making up the composite Indian identity, as you feel about the idea that an Aryan component came from another country outside India to make up Indian identity (the 'gene pool' of the modern Indian subcontinent ) .

Well, that settles it ... no shot for me ! 'Vaccine' can give you a " disrupted endocannabinoid system. "