Nungali

Hiding your shadow side Giles ?

I am never simply in 'argument mode' . The misunderstanding might be that I interpreted this ; as a conscious voluntary 'hiding' ( and this is the type of 'cover up' , conforming, etc. may well benefit from the practice of 'seeing oneself in others') . Perhaps I misinterpreted being ' hidden from oneself ' as not including 'hiding it by one's self ' ? I see them as two different things ( depending on how one defines the self , of course .) I see Jung as describing a much deeper process , inferred by ' hidden from the self ' and not 'hidden by the self ' . In the case of bad trauma , I dont think suppressed memory, in this case is a conscious act , its more of a psychological reaction . And if it is hidden from you , not by conscious choice , how can one then identify it in the self from observing others ? As I said above, I take your point that over time it may become so . BUT , is the passing of time and the fragmentation of these selves and their nature becoming hidden a conscious choice of hiding , or is it that 'they are being hidden' ? I can affirm that yes I do have reactions when I see someone exhibiting reactions that I am aware I have repressed in myself or 'hidden it by myself' , and it does help to see myself in that person , but if it is hidden from myself , how am I going to identify it ? Thats where psychoanalysis comes in, we need someone experienced in such matters to reveal what is hidden from us . It might sound like these are argumentative questions but they are really self expressed postulations , some fuelled by others responses and questions to me . It all boils down to ( for me ) Who is running this 'show' anyway ! ( or , who is doing this hiding ? ) Sometimes I think I have a handle on it and then other times its elusive . As you probably realise, I have studied many models ( religions, philosophies, etc ) of these self dynamics (and posted about them ) . Eg. In exo-psychology , the self is defined as 8 mini-brains, one is (or should be ) a type of master control circuit , some can function from that . The lower circuits are more instinctual, they are needed but should not be running or programming the other ones. I think in most of us the self is a concept that sort of floats around between these levels and is centred wherever, depending on circumstance, experience programming and development . I also realise I have 'strange magical' concepts about what constitutes 'self' . Regarding the Jung quote ; " The inferior part of the personality; sum of all personal and collective psychic elements which, because of their incompatibility with the chosen conscious attitude, are denied expression in life and therefore coalesce into a relatively autonomous "splinter personality" with contrary tendencies in the unconscious. " Yes, he does acknowledge this particular input to create shadow , but it is not the only one or the whole of it , it also includes ; " the most part inferior and guilt-laden personality whose ultimate ramifications reach back into the realm of our animal ancestors and so comprise the whole historical aspect of the unconscious. " and other inputs . This is a far cry from seeing the Shadow as just something that contains the bad aspects of others we cant see in ourselves . Thats why I dont think the relatively simple process of seeing others faults in ourself is the simplistic resolution for problems with the 'Shadow' . And thats why I do not agree with Giles that " Shadow work is really simple " and " whatever you are able to see in others but unable to see in yourself is your Shadow" . These realms that ' reach back into the realm of our animal ancestors ' are addressed by Exo-psychology , they are deep rooted and just by seeing what bad aspects are in others and not ourself as the constituent of the Shadow is not going to address such deep seated imbalances of the psyche . I am not sure how cohesive even the above post is .

I agree . Its about time some realisation was had ... and its VERY basic realisation. The person experienced in REAL fighting will probably win over the one not experienced in it . The one with a 'mixed' bag of experience , eg MMA, is more likely to win over someone only dong one art . Look at a decathlon , who is more likely to win ; the expert javelin thrower or the one that has experience in 100 metres sprint, long jump, shot-put, high jump, 400 metres, 110 metres hurdles, discus, pole vault, javelin, and 1,500 metres ? MOST of what we see in MA is demonstration. Many tai chi guys dont seem to realise what a 'fight competition ' is and many MMA guys dont seem to realise what a 'demo' is ..... here are two guys ( one Tai Chi and one MMA ) that understand the difference between competition and demonstration . That means the MMA guy will try and help the other show some 'theory in application', he isnt concerned about beating him or winning - big difference !

Perhaps .... that can be a process of 'long bagging ' but I was referring to Jung's definition of shadow as things hidden from us . Now, if Mum says dont hate your brother and you learn to suppress and hide that hate in a 'long bag' , is that something hidden from ourselves ? I take your point that over time it may become so . But for clarity, I would reference back to Taomeow's post on p. 2 . .

When people from the US come to Australia they are often confused . because , back home ; and when they get here ;

Your hope has been fulfilled - you did misunderstand . You are 'really sad' because you projected your own meaning into what I was saying . It is actually that , myself and others who pointed out to you ( they gave up after trying once ) that it isnt a difference of opinion, it is a mistake on your part . I will try again ; You say 'shadow; is what you hide from others'. Jung says 'shadow' is what is hidden from yourself ' . Now, if you want to argue that someone's theory isnt what they are declaring, even though its got their name on it and was clearly ( not complexly ) outlined and stated , that isnt an opinion about their theory , that's getting their theory wrong . Also wrong about me being happy if I force you to change the thread title .... ummmm what ! ? My happiness does not depend on such ....... 'unusual forcings ' . You are also wrong about 'heckling' . I am not heckling , heckling is " to interrupt (a public speaker) with derisive or aggressive comments or abuse.' May I suggest that these misinterpretations you have come up with are reflections you have seen of yourself in me ? I mean , thats your theory isnt it , to identify traits of yourself you see in others ?

What about leaving 'this world' in a different way ? Obviously if suicide failed and caused more problems, that isnt the solution ... not your 'time yet' (believe me, I know about this ! I have had three very close calls with death , but inexplicably survived ( and one of those 'inexplicable survivals' was voiced by 2 unbelieving police officers ! ). There is more than one way to 'leave this world ' . I left the world I didnt want to be in many years ago . Here is another choice ; enter a monastery . Actually , a total despair and 'giving up' about the world might indeed be a prerequisite for such a path . Surely you could cook and help feed people or carry water or something / anything ?

I would be happy to read about Giles' theory on Shadow Dance . But not Giles' theory of Shadow Dance being described as ' Jungian Shadow Dance Theory ' .

In a discussion where someone was getting frustrated due to excessive ' homonym jokes' made , at their expense . They posted ; " Oh , for goodness sake ! Response ; ' No thanks, I dont drink that stuff . "

Now you attempt to escape by misinterpreting your own meanings

Nope ! Morley above talks about 'what we hide from others' as you do ; " Basically, whatever you are able to see in others but unable to see in yourself is your Shadow. " BUT Jung talks about what is hidden in the unconscious from ourselves. Jung's 'personalisation ' should be obvious as it is observed to be his own experience of the core dynamic of the Shadow, not that the core dynamic is wholly Jung's experience . We are back at definition again , which already posted on. Can you tell yet , what you are doing here ; " what I wrote earlier, including the fact that Jung’s Shadow theory is perfectly comprehensible without reading any Jung because the Shadow is not actually Jung’s original discovery." ? How can you know what someone's theory is without bothering to read it ? Unless one had some type of experience and then assumed that is what Jung was talking about and then said Jung was wrong about his own theory, because you think you understand what he meant due to your own experience . Thats some fancy 'shadow dancing' you got going on there .

I havent heard these guys for years . I was trying out my new remote speakers last night . Big joint , lights out (except for the faint light coming through the fish tank bubbles ) and .......

What says Jung of 'agape' then ? [ Traditionally Eros was sexual attraction and desire , but not just that . Eros also had a much wider range , as Jung suggests, depending on which tradition (some have even posited the existence of at least two different Eroses) ; Eros as a Primordial Cosmic Force The first of these is Hesiod’s Eros, a primordial being, “the most beautiful of the immortal gods,” one of the very first few deities that sprung into existence. In this story, Eros was the son of Chaos, and the brother of Gaea, Tartarus, Erebus, and Nyx. A universal cosmic force, he became Aphrodite’s companion soon after her birth, which he had previously overseen. Eros as One of the Erotes, Children of Aphrodite and Ares However, possibly due to the fact that Eros was constantly accompanying the goddess of love, later authors reimagined him as one of the many children of Aphrodite and Ares. In this case, there are at least three more winged love gods such as him, all of them his brothers: Anteros, Pothos, and Himeros. Together, they are often referred to as the Erotes. - https://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Eros/eros.html Other named Erotes are Anteros ("Love Returned"),[1]Himeros ("Impetuous Love" or "Pressing Desire"), Hedylogos ("Sweet-talk"), Hymenaios ("Bridal-Hymn"), Hermaphroditus ("Hermaphrodite" or "Effeminate"), and Pothos ("Desire, Longing," especially for one who is absent) - Wiki . Them here is Eros husband of Psykhe (Psyche) . Now that story and Eros' role in it is a real eye opener and and insight into the dynamics of 'soul', self and ego .

Azerbaijan is also on the west of Armenia .... Armenia divides Azerbaijan ? ? ? I never knew that !

Brookes More - Its from the rather excellent Theoi site . I also contains stuff on the A.D Melville translation. https://www.theoi.com/Library.html The four ages of man is interesting , from an historical and anthropological perspective. I was recently discussing (elsewhere) the old societies ( eg 'Old Europe' - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology) hunter gatherers, development of farming communities, spread of IE, and replacement of such by 'warlord' cultures' 'what went wrong' , etc . Ovid's 'outline ' ; " First was the Golden Age. Then rectitude spontaneous in the heart prevailed, and faith. Avengers were not seen, for laws unframed were all unknown and needless. Punishment and fear of penalties existed not. No harsh decrees were fixed on brazen plates. No suppliant multitude the countenance of Justice feared, averting, for they dwelt without a judge in peace. Descended not the steeps, shorn from its height, the lofty pine, cleaving the trackless waves of alien shores, nor distant realms were known to wandering men. The towns were not entrenched for time of war; they had no brazen trumpets, straight, nor horns of curving brass, nor helmets, shields nor swords. There was no thought of martial pomp—secure a happy multitude enjoyed repose. Then of her own accord the earth produced a store of every fruit. The harrow touched her not, nor did the plowshare wound her fields. And man content with given food, and none compelling, gathered arbute fruits and wild strawberries on the mountain sides, and ripe blackberries clinging to the bush, and corners and sweet acorns on the ground, down fallen from the spreading tree of Jove. Eternal Spring! Soft breathing zephyrs soothed and warmly cherished buds and blooms, produced without a seed. The valleys though unplowed gave many fruits; the fields though not renewed white glistened with the heavy bearded wheat: rivers flowed milk and nectar, and the trees, the very oak trees, then gave honey of themselves." Much of early Australian history (during the interface of first colonialism ) describes such an environment , with 'healthy specimens' living in egalitarian societies . Then we fell into ; " the Silver Age, though not so good as gold but still surpassing yellow brass, prevailed. Jove first reduced to years the Primal Spring, by him divided into periods four, unequal,—summer, autumn, winter, spring.—then glowed with tawny heat the parched air, or pendent icicles in winter froze and man stopped crouching in crude caverns, while he built his homes of tree rods, bark entwined. Then were the cereals planted in long rows, and bullocks groaned beneath the heavy yoke " It seems to be the first beginnings of agriculture , egalitarianism not yet corrupted by elitism ... but animal husbandry is evolving and as i have written before , it would not be long before someone thought ; ' If I can get an animal to be by slave and do certain hard work ... why not get other people to be my slave and do nearly all of it ! " So then we fell further into ... " The Age of Bronze, when cruel people were inclined to arms but not to impious crimes. And last of all the ruthless and hard Age of Iron prevailed, from which malignant vein great evil sprung; and modesty and faith and truth took flight, and in their stead deceits and snares and frauds and violence and wicked love of gain, succeeded.—Then the sailor spread his sails to winds unknown, and keels that long had stood on lofty mountains pierced uncharted waves. Surveyors anxious marked with metes and bounds the lands, created free as light and air: nor need the rich ground furnish only crops, and give due nourishment by right required,—they penetrated to the bowels of earth and dug up wealth, bad cause of all our ills,—rich ores which long ago the earth had hid and deep removed to gloomy Stygian caves: and soon destructive iron and harmful gold were brought to light; and War, which uses both, came forth and shook with sanguinary grip his clashing arms. Rapacity broke forth—the guest was not protected from his host, the father in law from his own son in law; even brothers seldom could abide in peace. The husband threatened to destroy his wife, and she her husband: horrid step dames mixed the deadly henbane: eager sons inquired their fathers, ages. Piety was slain: and last of all the virgin deity, Astraea vanished from the blood-stained earth." Impious crimes . I've discussed this before; sure, the Australian Aboriginals had war with each other , but they never committed genocide, destruction of the others environment , killing the women and children , etc etc . that later societies did . That all seemed to come after the IE invasions . My theory is that once fast escape was possible ( horse, sailing boat ) responsibility was forfeited . It would be an unthinkable crime in Aboriginal society becasue everything is linked together , some of the people in the opposing tribe would have been relatives , 'their' land and resources would, at times be available to you , an arrangement necessary for each ones survival. If people broke these laws, they would be punished . Its a bit hard to punish someone running away on horses, or sailing away on boats . After time the impetus became too great, there was no ore running away , just a continuous rolling forward in destruction, raiding and resettlemt . Which of course led them open to the same - hence history 'evolved' ... " piety was slain " and "Astraea vanished from the blood-stained earth." [ Her name meant "star-maiden" and she was on the earth alongside humans during the Golden Age of Man. When the Iron Age dawned, bringing along misery and wickedness, Astraea abandoned the earth and went to the skies where she transformed into the constellation Virgo. She was closely linked to the goddess Dike, protector of fair judgment; this relationship was also identified on the sky, where Libra, the symbolic representation of Dike, lies nearby Virgo. According to the myth, when Astraea returns to Earth one day, she will once again bring the utopia that was during the Golden Age, bringing an end to human suffering.\

Its been a long time since I read any Ovid . I did recently and was reminded why I like it so much , so I have started at 'the beginning' Here is an example from the section on The Great Flood ; " [283] And Neptune with his trident smote the Earth, which trembling with unwonted throes heaved up the sources of her waters bare; and through her open plains the rapid rivers rushed resistless, onward bearing the waving grain, the budding groves, the houses, sheep and men,—and holy temples, and their sacred urns. The mansions that remained, resisting vast and total ruin, deepening waves concealed and whelmed their tottering turrets in the flood and whirling gulf. And now one vast expanse, the land and sea were mingled in the waste of endless waves—a sea without a shore. [293] One desperate man seized on the nearest hill; another sitting in his curved boat, plied the long oar where he was wont to plow; another sailed above his grain, above his hidden dwelling; and another hooked a fish that sported in a leafy elm. Perchance an anchor dropped in verdant fields, or curving keels were pushed through tangled vines; and where the gracile goat enjoyed the green, unsightly seals reposed. Beneath the waves were wondering Nereids, viewing cities, groves and houses. Dolphins darting mid the trees, meshed in the twisted branches, beat against the shaken oak trees. There the sheep, affrayed, swim with the frightened wolf, the surging waves float tigers and lions: availeth naught his lightning shock the wild boar, nor avails the stag's fleet footed speed. The wandering bird, seeking umbrageous groves and hidden vales, with wearied pinion droops into the sea. The waves increasing surge above the hills, and rising waters dash on mountain tops. ..... "

I would not describe love as an emotion - in itself . I think love is a universal force (meaning it is a force that operates in many things aside from people, including physics ) that when it effects people it triggers their emotions ... into a whole range of other stuff that they often mistake as love ( eg, jealousy, possession, etc .)

I would invite Einstein .... then I could ask him . " Ein Stein Einstein ? "

I seem to remember some old B&W movie with soldiers acting badly and shooting at giant ants in a desert location ? Wait .... I looked it up, Its color , so probably a different one to the one I am thinking of . . Sand Kings was an 'Outer Limits' episode . Yep, I used to watch that ! Outer Limits and Twilight Zone I may have missed that one . ? The movie I was thinking of was 'THEM! '

" Unexpected " ? Thread title : The Jungian Shadow Theory: " I disagree with any assertion that it's necessary to read Jung in order to do effective Shadow work. In fact, I consider that reading Jung makes the job unnecessarily complicated and potentially impossible because Jung is so convoluted. " If people dont read Jung , how they gonna know what the theory is . Also there is the case of definition of 'shadow ' ; it might mean something totally different to me than it means to you . In your case it seems to mean what you outlined about seeing yourself in others . A very simple and singular definition. Now look what Taomeow posted on it . It can be a whole huge complex, something that merely 'bugs ' one or something that overpowers and can possess them . But you actually defined what the approach is to be here due to the title you selected .

Oh noooo! NO vegie or other turkey food outside ! It only encourages these blighters ( dig up garden and spread it all over paths, eat my monstera deliciosa before I get a chance to , up end pots and destroy rare plants , and then break the pot , demolish compost heaps ..... ) We used to have a contract .

Yep. There are 3 main 'spooks' in that area , and most of the people there are really scared of them . Uncle Lewi tells me how they are his guardians and look after him, one can detect a real emotional fondness in his voice when he speaks of them . That snake was a random internet pic , put up because I liked it I was looking for a picture of 'Gelati' a hybrid python with near fluorescent multi colors , but couldnt find one . Here is the type more likely to be a pet here , diamond python / rainbow serpent , here the north and south species and make a natural hybrid - as a few other animals can ( which often make them hard to identify ) . Morelia spilota spilota

I talked about this before, but I will put it here because its .... snakey. When my shamanic teacher got bitten by a venomous snake, he just went away and sat down for a couple of days , not to be disturbed . He returned, recovered , saying he now had internally transmuted the venom into a medicine and now had the wisdom and magic of that snake . Apparently its happened about 3 times , so he has three different snake powers . Errrmmmmm ...... I dont feel I am ready for that yet ! I have found that not only do I have a real like and affinity with diamond python ( rainbow serpent ) but also with people that have this snake as their totem . . . I feel comfortable with them .