Nungali

Then if Jesus / Issa ? (one assumes you are suggesting they are the same person ? ) thought and taught that, we woud have a 'great miss' ... again , just like the Zoroastrian 'redaction' made . EG . The cosmic battle between good (Ahura Mazda) and evil (Angra Mainyu) is a false comparison ; 'mainyu' is not paired with or against Ahura Mazda , Angra Mainyu is paired against 'Spenta Mainyu' and 'mainyu' is 'mind. We all have the potential for our minds to go good or bad ... thats in us , they are not Gods or deities. Of course, later, they where transformed into all sorts of things ; friends and enemies of the state ( read Shamaneh ) , mythological /socio / cultural appropriations , 'sort of Gods' but not because 'monotheism', etc . Fire 'worship' is often explained , even by modern Zoroastrians ; they dont 'worship' fire . It is a central symbol that represents spirit, light and 'good bright mind ' , amongst other things . " Zoroastrians are not fire-worshippers, as some Westerners wrongly believe. Zoroastrians believe that the elements are pure and that fire represents God's light or wisdom. " https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/zoroastrian/worship/worship.shtml The Amesha Spentas also where not worshipped as ' intermediary divine being' they are the qualities of good mind ; The Amesha Spentas (amesha meaning eternal or ageless & spenta meaning brilliance, enlightenment and beneficence) are also ideals to which humans can aspire. Possessing Amesha Spenta qualities does not make humans god-like. Possessing these qualities means being in harmony with God's work. Vohu Mano in human beings is the good mind. Asha is principled, honest, beneficent, ordered, lawful living - for some, righteousness and piety. Khshathra is having dominion and sovereignty over one's life. Armaiti is serenity. Haurvatat is being holistic and healthy. It is also seeking excellence in all we do. Ameretat is transcending mortal limitations through good health, by handing down the spiritual flame or mainyu athra, and by building an enduring, undying spirit, the united fravashi. In a way 'old Zoroastrianism is a 'science of the mind' , a bit like Buddhism can be [ since the 19th century, numerous modern figures have argued that Buddhism is rational and uniquely compatible with science. Some have even argued that Buddhism is "scientific" (a kind of "science of the mind" or an "inner science").[8][9][2][10][11] Those who argue that Buddhism is aligned with science point out certain commonalities between the scientific method and Buddhist thought. The 14th Dalai Lama, for example, in a speech to the Society for Neuroscience,[12] listed a "suspicion of absolutes" and a reliance on causality and empiricism as common philosophical principles shared by Buddhism and science ] But for a variety of reasons , things get changed and some of 'need' deities ; ^ 'gaming characters ' .

Yes, as far as cultures go, it was . To that end I often quote a Rabbi ; "So what if it is a made up story ... the 'missing parts' where 'documents found in a cave ' ? < raises eyebrows > Still, its a story that has bought Jewish unity and continuation throughout some of the most thorough attempts at extermination in history .. and we are still here . " Kudos ! - all cultures have a some history of 'construction' ; Christian , Islam , and yes , Zoroastrianism too - by the later Archaeminads ; https://iranicaonline.org/articles/achaemenid-religion

So then; why did not those lack of Christian values back in re Christian tribal times where they practised abortion and contraception not cause the same problems ? Would one not have to agree it isnt lack of Christian values but different modern problems ergo ... lack of Christian values are not the problem ... they can not keep up with what is needed as a religious regulator for modern times , ie old and out of date with current social issues and problems .

then we would not need him, we could listen to them ourselves . Your comments seem to be growing in obscurity .

and very off topic . However , its mostly what you referred to ; " .. women enjoyed a high degree of social freedom. They could own property, ask for a divorce if not treated properly, and they shared responsibility for running farms and homesteads with their menfolk. They were also protected by law from a range of unwanted male attention... I could add a lot more , including famous military women and leaders https://www.persepolis.nu/queens.htm This section is dedicated to some of the most powerful women of Persia that never received the historical recognition they deserve due to passage of time and accidents of history. Women in Persia were very honored and revered, they often held very important & influential positions in the Courthouse, Ministries, Military, State and Treasury Department, and other official administrations. The significant role of women in Ancient Persia both horrified and fascinated the ancient Greek and Roman male-dominated societies. The fortification tablets at the Ruins of Persepolis also reveals that men and women were represented in identical professions and that they received equal payments as skilled laborers and that gender was not a criterion at all (unlike our modern world). New mothers and pregnant women even received wages far above those of their male co-workers in order to show appreciation. Women enjoyed a high level of gender equality before the imposition of the dark, backward, and pernicious Abrahamic ideologies (Judaism, Christianity, and especially Islam) after the barbaric Arab invasion upon Persia which destroyed our Equal rights, Freedom of speech and Freedom of religion and replaced those factors with central primitive brutal government, prejudice and slavery. There is much evidence that the principles of Zoroastrianism lay the core foundation to the first Declaration of Human Rights in the Persian Empire set by Cyrus the Great since the rulers of Persia were Zoroastrians and relatively liberal and progressive. free woman - independent, autonomous, untied, unattached to a man .. it changed around 14th C. AD to ore of the modern meaning .

So was that a yes answer or not ?

Id have to go into Zoroastrianism to find that

Of course not ! That was a Neo-Platonic influenced Jewish concept that is an expression of BEFORE 'the One' 'manifested ' " Neoplatonic philosophy is a strict form of principle-monism that strives to understand everything on the basis of a single cause that they considered divine, and indiscriminately referred to as “the First”, “the One”, or “the Good”. " https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neoplatonism/ Ein Sof, or Eyn Sof (/eɪn sɒf/, Hebrew: אֵין סוֹף‎ ʾēn sōf; meaning "infinite", lit. '(There is) no end'), in Kabbalah, is understood as God prior to any self-manifestation in the production of any spiritual realm, probably derived from Solomon ibn Gabirol's (c. 1021 – c. 1070) term, "the Endless One" (she-en lo tiklah). Ein Sof may be translated as "unending", "(there is) no end", or infinity.[1] It was first used by Azriel (c. 1160 – c. 1238), who, sharing the Neoplatonic belief that God can have no desire, thought, word, or action, emphasized by it the negation of any attribute. Of the Ein Sof, nothing ("Ein") can be grasped ("Sof"-limitation). It is the origin of the Ohr Ein Sof, the "Infinite Light" of paradoxical divine self-knowledge, nullified within the Ein Sof prior to creation. " other cultural examples here in Oz are stories that start with ; " Before the Dreamtime ..... " theirs is based on 'pre originating' duality , while some of the Jewish ones are based on Triplicity , like the tree 'levels' of ein, ein sof, then ein sof ohr ... then 'the one ' although within that some schools of philosophy see ( a type of ) duality , eg . Tzim-tzum where In the Kabbalistic interpretation, tzimtzum gives rise to the paradox of simultaneous divine presence and absence within the vacuum and resultant Creation .

Okay , so you didnt mention lack of Christian values . Is it lack of Christian values that create modern problems around abortion or the other things you mentioned ?

I know ... thats part of 'my' clarity . Its happening currently here too ... much to peoples shocked disbelief ! https://theconversation.com/abortion-is-back-in-the-headlines-in-australia-the-debates-in-the-united-states-tell-us-why-241778

And do you think that abortion and contraception, 'back then' created the same problems you seem to be attributing to society now because of abortion and contraception ?

Ummmm ... in this thread I am basing posts on academic research and my studies in Comparative Religion. When I studied at Sydney University the Religion lectures did not mention visitors from other star systems being Gods , books we read as teenagers or personal belief systems . Try this for a starter ; https://davidsolomon.online/2021/04/22/81-a-journey-through-jewish-philosophy-3/ " ... If you recall in the first session we talked about Philo in the first century, the famous Middle Platonist, and his enormous contribution to getting this idea of Jewish philosophy off and running. ... But if we understand the notion of the One, if we understand the notion of emanation and particularly understanding the notion of form and matter and divine will permeating all of reality. I know that scholars are always saying, Shlomo Ibn Gabirol didn’t really influence the Kabbalah, but everywhere you look in kabbalistic thought, you can see ideas that are reflective of Shlomo Ibn Gabirol’s picture of the world. So, Neoplatonism is a very, very heavy influence inside kabbalistic thought ... " . and https://cswr.hds.harvard.edu/news/2023/09/28/list-lecture-jewish-studies-adam-afterman-kabbalistic-neoplatonism-divine-emanation " Their first synthesis occurred in the writings of Philo, forgotten by rabbinic Jewish world until the Renaissance, and their second, during the 10th century and onwards in the Islamic Arabian Peninsula. The second attempt met with greater success, but also greater resistance, as may be attested by the enormous supposition that Moses Maimonides' grand synthesis met. Greek wisdom by most medieval Jewish rabbinic Jews was seen as, at best, as one option but not authoritative, and at worst, heretical. Nevertheless, the work of Maimonides and his predecessors was still absorbed by much of rabbinic Judaism, including somewhat surprisingly, kabbalistic writings. Perhaps the most crucial idea incorporated by medieval rabbinic Judaism was philosophical monotheism. The encounter with kalam thought and its emphasis on Tawhid led Jews in the 10th century to a more philosophical understanding of God's oneness, an incorporeal and transcendent oneness not subject to any category of change. This conception became so foundational to Judaism, even read as the intention of the most important biblical verse, "Hear, o, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." That later, Jewish thinkers identified it as the original Jewish idea that was later absorbed and adopted by the other monotheistic faiths. " - so there you have it , Jews adopted it so readily that they assumed they came up with it and where the source of this AND that Neo-platonism got its concepts from Judaism !

Sorry but I am finding your posts increasingly confusing . I think the debates are people expressing their views opinions and hopes . It isnt a smoke screen its rather clear who s in what camp and what for . confused again as it was you that defined the modern problems . I'll try again and go step by step and try for some clarity ; First , do you think ancient tribal people had contraception and abortion and practised it ?

One can trust in God without being a Christian .

From late friday to sometime before Sunday morning is NOT 3 days . I might try to get away with that on my work time sheet but my boss would be right onto it .

Indeed they didnt AND they had contraception and abortion ... so what is your point ? Or did you assume that 'former tribes' never did this , didnt have modern problems , ergo , Christianity - good socially (based on wrong knowledge ) or what ????

Ummmm ... lot of the things you attribute to Christianity , actually come from the modern enlightenment movement AWAY from rule by church and royal genetic lineage . You know, Freemasonry , the French Revolution, the founding of the USA ? As in Freemasonry , within the founders of the USA there were Christians among them – no deists – but the key Founders who were most responsible for the founding documents (Declaration of Independence and Constitution) and who had the most influence were 'theistic rationalists'.

I liked this one ; 'stealing ? what's that ? An anthropologist noted some huts in the village had the door with a stick propped up against it from the outside jamming it closed . he asked why and was told " The people there are away for a while .... no one home . " Anthropologist ; " But could not someone easily pull the stick out and open the door and go in ? " The villager was confused : " Why would anyone want to go in if no one was home ? " Punishment - spearing . A sort of 'test by combat ' .... fate will decide ; bad infraction - you are allowed to dance ( moving target, you can dodge and weave ) while they throw spears at you , serious infraction - stand still while they throw spears at you , really serious - hold your leg out in front and twisted to the outside, stand still (exposes the femoral artery ) . [ Favorite 'punishment story' ( and it might be an insight as to how they actually felt about it and 'worked' it ). Mid last century a show came to town - Mexican knife thrower , flashy , full out fit and attractive assistant (target ) . he came out to the place ( La perouse , outside of Sydney ) where aboriginals used to demonstrate their skills with boomerang , spears and a snake show , then pass the hat around . Mexican wanted to see it , at the end he talked to them, showed them his knives, they where very impressed with them and then he put on hos own show ( to promote his act ) . Set the woman assistant against a wooden board and outlined her with thrown knives . The aboriginals where totally confused about what was happening until one of them worked it out and explained it to the others , then they all smiled and understood ; " That must be his wife and she has been unfaithful to him, so she MUST be punished , according to Law , but we can tell he really must love her as its easy to see he deliberately missed every shot . " In a tribe where you share all, how can you steal anything ? But strangely enough, your most treasured possession can be stolen ! ... your wife, your children ..... your spirit

Its mostly on the early constructive phase, it hasn't actually become 'Judaism' yet . . Soon I will posting more about its adaptive phase where it became influenced by Neo-Platonism . I feel this is important as we have a relentless poster here that is continually stating the opposite happened and claiming all sorts of originating sources within Judaism , for the very things that existed outside of it , came into it , and gave it its specific identity ( one example is 'monotheism ' and 'emanation' ) .

< see below >

Only that I think the idea of 'king of the beasts' was adopted ; strong, fierce , etc . Why northern Europe more than other places ? WEel, I am southerner , better ask someone from up there

Agreed , its not first place but last resort . Some people dont stop until they come up against 'last resort' .... if they dont come up against any one or thing like that , they become 'unstoppable' . Its part of human nature for some . Check your 'Budoism'.

Even Australia 'appropriated ' a lion symbol - the classic Holden car emblem 'King of the beasts' , and all that .... they might have used a kangaroo instead , but thought that might indicate 'clutch problems' Dragons, eagles, ravens, snakes ; two levels of symbolism - a general mythological meaning that the country or area aspires to - as part of the myth associated with the founding of the state or country eg Mexico Eagle, snake and cactus . The legend says that the Aztecs left their home to look for a place to start a new life. Their god had told them to find a lake where an eagle with a snake in its beak would stand on a nopal cactus growing from a rock. That would be the place to build their new city. Eventually they saw just that and settled there .