Nungali

For their own good ! - ironic wasn't it ?

and rather an exercise in avoiding answering the CONTEXTUAL point . or is it a deliberate 'misunderstanding' ?

THE contextual point .

nah ... its rotating and also moving along the path of the wheel rim , if the wheel ...... grounded Hmmm .. depending on what you call 'torture' , that might be valid . You used the term before in a way I didnt like .... I ignored it . My reaction was ' What would HE know about it ! " I think this as I have worked with refugee ex-torture victims .... in one case a woman showed me the missing parts of her body, little bits they cut off or out each day ..... . I hope you never experienced anything like that . But I also hope you dont use the term in an unwarranted fashion .

One's I know about : tribal ; a hunter should not eat the hunt but first return with food and feed the elderly and children first an then they can eat . The exception is , if they are hungry and weak and may not be able to get the heavy meat back to camp , they may drink some of the fresah blood to get energy to do the task at hand , to get the food back to the tribe . other 'magical uses' ? I dont want to know about it .... it smacks oif 'black magic' to me . I have no desire to drink Christ's blood, or any other God's blood . Why would I do that, when I get my magical force straight from the 'origin' and not have it go through a 'blood transformation' first and then drink that and then transform it back to its form ? By the way ( and I have debated this successfully , mostly because others are so unfamiliar with my specialties ' and the actual 'goings on' and what is behind them - like intent ) there was never any 'sacrificial culture' within the Australian Aboriginal cultures .... but they are some of the oldest surviving cultures in history . Why not ? ( Hint , they also never developed 'livestock' , 'beasts of burden' or slavery . I assume one leads to the other . )

I know you asked BES this but I am going to jump in and hope I dont land on her toes . First , any 'old pagan ways ' is a tricky term . let's forget that for the moment . people first started learning about this through necessity , mostly food gathering and medicines - via the 'doctrine of signatures' qualified by trial and error . That developed as 'civilization' developed . It arose in the major centers of development and in doctrines and writings of Zoroastrians, Jews, Greek philosophers and pre-Greek Egytptians (and some others ) this got synthesized in the 'Alexandrian Synthesis ' ( they where very serious about this, back then any ship that came into Alexandria would have texts seized, copied in the library and returned - many complained that they got the copies back and not their originals ). Alexandria declined , the library burned more than once . The tradition ( now 'Hermetics' ) moved to Harran in Syria ( a VERY interesting place , look it up ) . The we had the rise of Islam , they came to Harran and found a mass of people .... to many to 'put to the sword' and besides, they didnt want to convert . If they could be accepted , problem solved ... and imagine the jizra ! (tax on being accepted as a non Moslem ). They claimed to be Sabians , showed their Hermetic texts as 'sacred Book' and claimed Hermes ( as in 'hermetic ' .... Hermes - Mercury - Thoth - Tjahuti , going backwards to the Egyptian version) as their prophet . To cement that the Islamic view flexed to agree as Mohamed does make reference to unnamed prophets before him . They where adopted into the fold and it was soon realized they held knowledge of medicine , astronomy , mathematics, etc and that was adopted. Not long after that Islam culture bloomed into a 'Golden Age ' . meanwhile the Greeks and Jews where developing their contributions . The Islamics had some input in tying a lot of it together and wrote treatises , many about the things you mentioned above . These translated into Europe via Neo-Platonists and others like Cornelius Agrippa , (see 'Three Books of Occult Philosophy ' ) where a lot of these relationships are listed . Now that became THE science of the time and the background behind things like the current then evolving Freemasonic movement . ( That increased again in Victorian times when many did the 'World Tour' and bought back new ideas and philosophies resulting in things like 'Egyptian Freemasonry' and others 'unregulated ' or 'spurious' forms of FM ). In Europe it was blended with the Christian outlook - which was very different to that of today , it was underpinned by neo-Platonism , the 'hermetic current' and the world view of the time . Then came various other developments that created the scientific revolution and the world view changed , so what had been tied to the previous one ( the Neo-Platonic / hermetic current ) got thrown out with the bathwater . ( See The Origins of Modern Science by Herbert Butterfield , even if only the first few chapters , it is CRUCIAL in understanding all this , and how we- ' collective modern culture ;'western' - 'fell' from a tripartite understanding to a dualistic one - in the overall mental paradigm ) . There is a free pdf of it online . The came the revival of magick where the 'holistic' view returned , along with a development of hermetic kabbalah . Alongside that developments in Freemasonry split off and developed certain traditions that eventually evolved into some of the occult and initiation schools of the west . Eg. one of the biggest international ones of today is Ordo Templi Orientis , whose roots come from 'The Rites of Mephas and Mizraim , 'spurious' Egyptian Freemasonry ' . I am not sure where one would draw the 'pagan' line in all this ? And that 'magical technology' was incorporated into the Mass ; the use of special colors for certain rites, different vestments , incenses (here the incense of the 'God' Jesus is considered tripartite; the three gifts of the three wise men (supposed Magi / Zoroastrians ) .. also 'sacraments' can be seen as religious equivalents to the different stages of initiation , especially with the basic ones , which are based on birth, life and death ( its even the same in the Aboriginal initiation traditions here and other places ) ; baptism , confirmation, last rites . So .... " understandings names, cycles colors, paths… were they not kinda integrated into mystery schools and secret societies over the years are preserved as parts of magical rituals and rites." Yes, 'kinda' . and you will find a lot of that in Agrippa . Things are classified as 'in a similar vibration ' thats how we get the modern idea that a particular astrological sign for a person gives their 'favorite' gem ... or the one 'best' for them . Thats why the altar of Venus might be based on a green color scheme , require a certain incense , a certain oration, etc . I had to learn a lot of that to pass examinations (in a mystery school ) . the modern treatise on it would be https://hermetic.com/crowley/777/index

What martial arts have you done TD ?

No " The Hollow Earth is a concept proposing that the planet Earth is entirely hollow or contains a substantial interior space. Notably suggested by Edmond Halley in the late 17th century, the notion was disproven, first tentatively by Pierre Bouguer in 1740, then definitively by Charles Hutton in his Schiehallion experiment around 1774. " and then picked up by the modern 'alternative crew' in a hodge podge of anything remotely related ; including 'Greek underworld ' ( I am sure you can find a podcast or youtube 'proving ' that )

Eeeeegh ! 1. If I use down vote there is NO intention that it means a slap in the face , on my part . If YOU feel a slap in the face , that is something for you to look at and work on . 2. Look at the cats faces ... one is sad and hurt and the other has 'evil delight' . 3. Its physical abuse . 4. Yes, it is humerous ... but why ? Please explain why , not a rhetorical question . 5. Your whole analogy about slapping someones face and a mere down arrow is really over the top, if you think about it . Obviously your ego is bruised , and you did feel a bit knocked off your perch ... but IMO TTBs is about growth and development ... as a well as ;selling your wares ' . I am not too keen on the second one , but 'tough titties' to me . [ Are you an American ? I do find their culture has engendered in them , more of a feeling of upset, outrage, anger , not looking at the underlying issue , etc . when criticized or insulted . I really noticed that at work with mixed USA and Aussie crews with a big mix of various other cultural individuals . ] 6. You cant seem to disassociate hostile intent from all the other things a down vote might mean , even though its been explained in all sorts of ways . 7. I have never drawn more points of criticism from such a short phrase before ! 8 . Persistent little bugger aren't you ? ( meaning you 'hold fast to your perceptions amidst a sea of alternative 'pointing out and explaining ' . )

It seems nicer than an 'up fist ' .

Even looking at point one , how does that fit in with my original response considering its CONTEXT or has that fallen by the wayside as the wheels follow the ruts ?

Always good to see your translations ... however sometimes your logic seems awry .... The above shows oxygen might be an ingrediant of air , but not its equivlence . IE Qi = Oxygen . Wrong . By the above logic Qi = Oxygen PLUS food . Go on .... explain to me how 'Chinese logic' is different . ( Noooooooo ... that was rhetorical . )

... and the first precept of hermetics You wanted to penetrate the Eleusinian Mysteries ? The writing across the arch of the first doorway was 'Man, know thyself .'

Okay fine, now how does that work if we replace what I said in response to what I was responding to ? ie. how much does it change my contextual point ? and by the way , such a question does not imply that I dont like Cobie

But we have not had a vote on downvote ... how many will upvote the downvote ? What sort of 'election' counts no votes as the majority ?

Ah, there we have it ! A down vote on a post means you dont like someone ! Good Lord ! I get this all the time ; being a director on three boards ... in community meetings : " Sorry, bad idea for these reasons ; 1 2 3 4 5 6 ..... so I vote no . " Proposer : " Ohhhh Man ! I thought you where my friend !??? "

I just realized how close that symbol is to An emblem of the 2nd degree (on a black background) ; a downward wedge of light , plunging through and illuminating darkness " My brother, on this occasion of you passing through the ordeal I present to you this emblem ..... 'The Sacred Downvote ! '

Thank you , thats how I see it too . A friend of mine got one ( a mandate from heaven ) . he took a name which means 'great leader' amongst his people . They sure needed one ... but they rejected his vision , and him . That was very sad, for them and his people . He taught and led a rainbow serpent dance with 300 people in it at one of our festivals years back ... it was absolutely awesome ! I never done or seen anything else like that before or since . He was one of the few that 'stepped up' after the 'old Uncles' died . he should have been a 'treasure' . So he went away , traveled , met other people , worked with them , received acclaim , gets invited to all sorts of conferences across Australia , then OS . he even got paid flights and trip to America courtesy of Navajo nation to attend international indigenous conference . came back with his tribal stuff on plus huge chunks of silver and turquoise (indigenous bling ) etc . Now he is all over the place , busy , doent even live in this area any more .. a great loss , well, to 'us' not to the world at large . I dont believe any of that would have happened from a purely human 'mandate ' . He knew his True Will ' what his purpose was .... that doesnt mean he will be accepted though . '' ... 2. Thou then, who hast trials and troubles, rejoice because of them, for in them is Strength, and by their means is a pathway opened unto that Light. 3. How should it be otherwise, O man, whose life is but a day in Eternity, a drop in the Ocean of time; how, were thy trials not many, couldst thou purge thy soul from the dross of earth? Is it but now that the Higher Life is beset with dangers and difficulties; hath it not ever been so with the Sages and Hierophants of the past? They have been persecuted and reviled, they have been tormented of men; yet through this also has their Glory increased. ..."

How about we replace it with this ? ....

Not unpleasnat amongst OURSELVES I saw it as a joke . Ya know, one of the functions of DBs ... sometimes ... might be 'get knocked off ones perch ' ... wind the ego in a bit of those that think they know everything about a particular something . Of course, that sort is bound to take offense !

Just keep the glass closed ;

Nah ... I down voted your expressed opinion You, yourself ? Mhe .... he's okay ( a little selfish though )

Indeed ... even 'Mother Teresa'. If they would admit it .... I would shut up