Nungali

There is a deeper level of my joke - the reverse analogy Archaeology / Anthropology used to talk about waves of people coming into Australia from the NE . The (real) Australians said no, we are the originals one and only . But 'left wing greenie' machinations , relating to the granting of land rights (and commie universities ) started concluding , a lot via genetics that they where right and there was no incoming waves of modifying migrations . So we started to get classic anthropological theory thrown out the window ( selectively, mind you ) and recent anthropologists examine 'gracile' , 'robust' , 'modern' and 'archaic' remains as " Mhe ... looks the same to me ! Its just a variation on type . " A strange reverse direction of the dynamics re political machinations and origins between India and Australia . One seemingly valid idea is that the indigenous been here long enough from origins to have diverged into different types through genetic variation . Now, lets compare that to the ' Vedic Scholar approach ' - here , with an 'equivalent ' , Aboriginal Elder , 'top man' , running a gathering of nation wide indigenous at Alice Springs - his job was to group together 'types' , and help those that did not know where they belonged , due to 'lost culture' . Uncle Link bought up some kids from my area , one bought a school friend along, the Aboriginal boy and his friend where separated and put in different groups , the friend, put in an another Aboriginal group protested ' You made a mistake , I am Joe's friend from school, I am not an Aboriginal I am an Indian ! " The Elder said , 'I know, but these are your people ." And Link said " .... and be buggered if he didnt look exactly like most of the people in that group. "

By invading in through the NW corner ?

First; thanks for putting up an extract and shorter vid Why NOT include Andaman Islanders ? They are an ancient people (used to be called 'Australoids' ) that ranged east of modern India, India , Andaman Is , through SE Asia and then went to Australia . Old School Anthropology used to cite ' ancient people from India being part of a 'wave' of later ingress into Australia and the source of the dingo (not a native) . I realise this is 'out of vogue' nowadays , but the new ideas have had to gloss over some issues that still remain . So, the Andamenese (some of them) where considered part of the Indigenous population that spread over India . " this lineage is hypothesized to represent the phylogenetic signal of an early southern movement of humans through Asia. " https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC378623/ Regarding the 'filling in of gaps and postulations ' , that happens in everything , linguistics included . I have read similar protests (from OOI , of course ) pulling apart linguistic theory and denying all its premises , so virtually (they think) linguistics is invalid . The same goes for archaeological interpretations, in many cases . But if the emic interpretations of Vedic scholars is immune to this .... I certainly have NOT encountered that . because they fight amongst themselves regarding interpretations in the same way as scientific theorists do ! IMO admixture has been going on since ' year dot' , peoples movements. travel, seafaring , going on a LOT earlier than supposed . HOWEVER .... what he says about genetic calculations is relevant . And the reasons he gives (basically juggling data gives varied results ) is why , on the history forum, genetics is banned as a discussion subject . Also I like his little punctuating laugh

Get over it ? ... best thing that ever happened to 'me' . Talking to Aboriginal friends and they ; " ... and this white guy goes, 'I want to say sorry and apologise to you .' 'What for ' ? ' One of my ancestors stole a loaf of bread and they sent him to Australia , and then we had to live on your land and we messed everything up .' Then the Aboriginal gestures at the beautiful landscape, the clear flowing river intertwined with river sand beaches and clear pools, with giant fish, the islands of bottle brush flowers with various honey eaters flitting about ... ' And THIS was their punishment ? To be imprisoned HERE ! .... Away from ENGLAND ! " - and every body laughed . Oh how the English homeland pulls on my heart strings ! I shall try to get over it though

... and I nearly forgot ... I also looked at this you put up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tushara I suppose its an example area of influence in latter times ( and was this a fierce battle, like I depicted before in image - or just a spread of Universities ? ). Much latter times . MUCH MUCH later times than the ingress of Aryans into India . Since it has now been shown that the Asura Deva battles depicted in the Avestas (ie from the Zoroastrian POV ) do no show that the Deva relate to Indian Deva , but something different , its often been suggested it was between the Old ' Mazdayasni Paoiryo-Tkaesha' ; one branch moving towards Zoroastrianism ( Mazdayasno Zarathushtrish Vidaevo Ahura-Tkaesho) ... Asura Vs Deva.... not moving towards it NOT 'deva' as in the Vedas but perhaps 'south Bactrians ' (BMAC) Vs Nth (Tocahrians - Deva - Daevo ) and others, then around the Oxus delta / Aral Sea . ( Zoroastrians { Zarathushtrish } against { Vi } Div / Deva {Daveao } [ and for ] Ahura {Asura} 's religion/law { Tkaesho } ) But maybe some of these DEVAS did go on to India and take 'Aryan religion' with them ? Here is a suggestive picture from Zoroastrian side ; and a depiction from the Vedic side Different stories but with interesting correlations .

Okay I went back and nope no video in your OP that I can see .... the one above ? Nope too , I aint gonna watch a 1 1/2 hr video mate . For all I know I have already encountered what he is saying before and I might have agreed or not . Thats why I prefer to TALK and preferably if one can answer issues bout up in posts (not long videos ) instead of ignoring relevant questions , some things I asked, you totally ignored and then went on to emotive issues and subjects . I have watched too many long videos in discussions or debates that took up time and contained stuff easily or already disputed Will you watch a 2 hour video explaining the other view , will you read this book first, before talking about the influence in Central Asia . https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000094466 or this on BMAC archaeology ? https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780873655453 or the papers in this site ? https://indo-european.eu/?s=BMAC ( ... you might learn something, if you can just drop trying to be right ) Naahhhh ! No one is gonna do that ! A nice short to the point video is better IMO https://scroll.in/video/875040/video-who-are-our-ancestors-and-where-did-they-come-from-a-new-studys-findings-on-aryan-migration

I am aware of the chaos and suffering all sorts of British ploys bought about . But by bringing up old conspiracies true or false has little impact on the latests evidences . Okay, I shall retire to catch up on posted videos ... which I am NOT keen on in a discussion as , well, I too could post a series of long videos supporting my views and just ask people to watch them as proof . And when I started studying this subject years back , I had no horse in the race and still do not. These are the conclusions I have come to from looking into it , fairly in depth and cross culturally , inter disciplinary and hearing various Indian interpretations for and against both sides . I mean , are we going to cite how Hitler used Aryansm ? ( ... echoes of VYY in my old Aryan / Central Asia Thread - ) Thats been proved BS ! How British Empire used it? Thats BS too, but none of this changes the valid results of modern interdisciplinary research . AGAIN see my .... bugger it ... here it is again . the MODERN definition of AMT The AMT simply states an ethnolinguistic group that spoke Indic languages originated outside of the Indian subcontinent. There are several general features of this model that researchers commonly agree upon (such as that it happened and the general timeline of how), but specific aspects of the model are sources of active research to this day. How did they disperse and in what order? Was there one major migration or smaller waves followed by a series of larger ones (the latter is supported by the presence of peoples in the mountainous fringes of the subcontinent speaking Indo-Iranian languages and practicing religions preserving features of the ancient Indo-Iranian religion)? What were their interactions with the contemporary inhabits of the subcontinent like? Did they already possess a rigid caste hierarchy or did it develop out of their interactions with other peoples of the subcontinent ? To what extent did the languages and culture of the natives of the subcontinent or even those of civilizations they encountered along the way (like the BMAC) influence those of the incomers? Really, as someone else said " Who the **** cares and why do Indians care so much , we all came from somewhere else originally ! "

Here is another friend I converse with ; a very old Brahman gentleman , the one I mentioned before; Aupmanyav - he is very proud of his grandson Here is him chastising another venerable countryman about OOI regarding archaeology, history, linguistics, etc ; " I am not interested in the religious interpretations of RigVeda. (on the matter of the others interpretation that led him to think OOI) Various sages, in their ecstasy of devotion, have said various things about Aryan Gods and Goddesses. That is a separate matter. This is a history forum. I am interested only what history we can get out of RigVeda. " But now, later, he gives his venerable interpretation, from his 'religiously scholarly ' approach when asked about a river so big it had ships in it ; " the shi Aratyns saw in the Milky Way galaxy .... See the thousand-oared ship in the lower left corner.... " And regarding sages interpretations (masters of emic interpretation ... but not history or archaeology) etc; " God forbid, if I accuse the Vedic rishis of lying.' (as he is just seeing a different interpretation) I believe except for poetic exaggeration in description of their Gods and Goddesses, what they wrote was absolutely true. It had to be because they were before a swarthy, intelligent audience. They employed falsehood when they were talking about dakshina and gifts that their clients gave them (Dana Stutis). This was to make their clients more generous. I do not blame them for that, after all, they had to make their living. In Indian places of pilgrimage the priests still do that - Your father gave us 1000 rupees, he was very generous, how come you are giving us only 500. " - Aupmanyav ------------ - just an example of different emic approaches from different traditions . On this level the debate gets very murky ( ie between learned Hindus WITH an emic approach - but one that varies ) ... before long its insuts or praise and then caste and jati come into it .... ancient tribal rivalries surface , the debate has gone out the window and then another thread about AMT , Aryans, or OOI is closed and locked and some people are banned . Thank goodness that isnt happening here ........ as a we are all ' high born ' . Now, I was going to move on to papers about the rivers of India and why some INSIST the Ghaggar River can not be the mythical Saraswati mentioned in the Rig Veda but they are long and complex and cross reference various disciplines . And I think .... does any one here really care anyway ? Doubt it . If any are seriously interested I can direct them to it . You would have to be 'up to speed' in a few subjects though.

Oh yes, many wonderful Universities. A very high culture. No doubt about that . My picture related to any 'natural 'order that makes China, India , or another Empire great and expansive . Was there no internal war , oppression and slaughter that made China great in the first place .... or even created it in the first place ? All of this* may have been 'peaceful' , I am not sure, its not an area I have focused on ( the peaceful expansion of Indian Empires) ; *

Indeed ! Regarding my above post ... if people keep giving me a weird look after that explanation , I : "Oh ! I dont have kids, parents, a partner or pets . " Oh! What I have missed out on becasue of that . OHHHH ! What I have been able to do and be becasue of that !

Your funny . I know exactly what you are talking about and regarding it , I dont live in an alternative reality . What, you think I am so uneducated about recent history I didnt know about these things . I think you and me have VERY different ideas of what 'natural order' and 'world' means . Natural Order ; "la la laaarr " Human 'Natural ' ' Order' ; " Urk ! "

My house might burn down . My gardens might burn up . Okay, let it be . I even left a whole lot of 'valuable' 'possessions' there . [ People think I am nuts and dont know what's going on. I told em " Oh, I have had a house burn down before, lost everything except the motorcycle I was riding at the time, the clothes I was wearing and a shoulder bag with wallet and some stuff in it." "What did you do ?" " Something else. " ] So I have gone to stay at a friends place . I LOVE IT ! What a fantastic place and area ! I might even move here if my house doesnt burn down . Now he tells me he wants to move out . Maybe I will take on this house . But actually, I got my eye on a better one, half in the rainforest (but this time coastal rainforest, different ) and next to a little beach side park .

Good. I hope they are venerable Hindu elders and gentlemen who would NEVER misinterpret the historical and archaeological record because of any religious bias they might have .

Its nearly like you WANT me to post ALL those 'disprorvels' It will be a very long post ... pages actually. And like you are saying they do not exist ? Unless I misunderstood you AGAIN ? The ' Natural Order ' ... has China and India at the head of the table does it ? And you are complaining about OIT people being labelled with Indian / Hindu nationalist tag ? Okey dokey .

Now, this bit ; Errmmm Dude , the debates I am in have people on both sides that take the emic approach . This as another argument currently running BETWEEN classic 'emic' scholars on emic interpretations ! And another debate on the value of 'emic' . Which I might put up later (in a hide box so as not overload the look of the thread Hang on , what parts of the 'ancient world' considered that " Vedic texts consider the extent of the culture/civilization spanning from West Asia to Russia," ? I knew you where claiming the Vedic texts said that ... but the 'ancient world ' considered it too ? Please post some proof or cite to something for a back up on THAT one ! It was? I remember talking about THAT ^ being a reversal of the huge majority of linguistic studies . This too is a long running discussion, but I admit linguistics is beyond my depth . To put it basically, these ideas can easily be the oher way, that some northern Steppe people had waves of movements that came down into central Asia and they bought aspects of language religion and culture with them that morphed on the way depending on who and what 'they' (ie generations ) encountered . This process continued in India. There was admixture before and admixture after, and WAAAAY before that we had (something that is often NOT taken into account _ all over the place 'back migration' .... that;ll shake up the jelly beans . Of course, also IVC influenced other parts of the world, just as other parts of the world not only influenced IVC but helped to create it in the first place ! This is VERY common . IVC goods and trades and even technological methods and perhaps workshops exited in Mesopotamia . (this is some of my most current reading - fascinating ) ... they had sea faring as well. I dont see how any of this disrupts AMT ( as per above definition) ? I had a lot of them straight already. I'm not sure what you are trying to conclude or imply by all this though ? I will get to the above two later . Right now, I am gonna hit this new little private beach next door

Okay. I got around to reading it . Errrrmmmmm .... and ??? How does this " ... address a few points made in the other thread by nungali " ? I have known about IVC, I have known about Sarasvati (whole range of ) claims and I didnt deny the existence of any of it at any time or in any 'other thread' . This isnt the old OIT ploy where you cite old and defunct opinions about a displacement by an invasion is it ? And then criticise it with the latest scientific findings . You do realise AIT is old school and VERY out of vogue ? Even AMT , some question, so I term it an 'ingress ' . One thing that is VERY recent is the influence of BMAC culture on any 'Aryans' that where passing through. And the realisation that people going to and from from India to Central Asia even before BMAC and IVC has been going on , like , ' forever'. And ESPECIALLY during IVC and BMAC ; IVC had a trading post at Sortugai over in BMAC . There are many other indications . ( I will add here , not to blow my trumpet but to show how lacking it is. on the history forum I am which is full of professionals, professors and authors on subjects related to AMT, OOI, IVC , development of Indian cultures, The Vedas, some Indians, some not (and some 'south Indians ) . No one seems to have studied central Asia or BMAC as much as I have . the seem wholly ignorant of it . So gage it by MY level of knowledge , it shows the overall knowledge is rather pathetic . I mean , MY GOD , its a secret lost and discovered (1960s) civilisation that is on par with IVC , Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia. And professional peeps be all like ; 'Mhe ." ) Like the Seal . I am sure you know about IVC seals ? What about BMAC seals ? and one in particular which has both - BMAC seal on one side and IVC seal on the other , its called the BMAC / IVC passport . Others show amounts and notations that suggest trade and quality/quantity labels . But since this just about a Sarasvati river existing and IVC existing,, there isnt much for me to say except, yes, they existed . Here is some other background on 'Sarasvati' :

Hey ! You think you can out old geezer me ! ? You young 'un .... I have been over such debates and arguments for the past 20 years. Not come across anything that is convincing about OIT.

One of those old fashioned 'Aussie migration ' jokes (formally known as a 'wog joke' before PC ) 'New Australian' guy sees a Salvation Army guy ; " Hey Mister , what a great uniform ! Who a you work for ?" " Christ ..... Jesus . " " Oh ! I work-a for his brother Kraft a-cheeses , but they no a-give me da nice-a uniform like a-that ! "

This could be the beginning of what I call 'That old river argument ' on two forums (history and anthropology) it has several threads on it from various academics and researchers and has some running to over 30 pages < loads up the cannon > I hope your headache gets better . Do you know whats good for a headache ?

Fire spotting everywhere, now 8 km to west. Imagine tomorrow with 40 deg and SW and NW winds. Last few days been raining burnt leaves and little chunks of charcoal ... in easterly winds ! I swapped refuges to a coastal place. I am staying at friends very comfortable mod cons large house near Little Bay SW Rocks. WOW! Got my own near private beach As I heard the fire services area Chief say when urging people to leave if not FULLY prepared and realised " Personally, I would rather be spending a few days at the beach myself than being here ." and " We have thrown everything we have at it , water bombing choppers and water and retardant plane but we havent been able to stop it ." ( STILL makes we wonder then why this fire is still listed as 'being controlled' ? ) He also said " We are worried about it crossing to the south side of the valley " (it already has ), then it might impact the township. We have told the hospital they might have to evacuate if it does . There is also the chance that it might do what it did in the '60s, burn around the back of town and continue until it hits the coast ." On the way out I passed fire vehicles, utes with water carriers, huge flat bed trucks with mega dozers and a couple of Army trucks .

I won;t be stepping on him, he looks .... scratchy .

An interesting view ( this time I mean validly interesting ) . One thing that does pop up though is 'mini cycles' ... little bumps in the graph , that do not appear to be generated by agriculture ; https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age Knowledge of Central Asia's climate and climate changes during the past 12,000 years can assist in an understanding of the historical periods in Central Asia. For instance, in an event called the Younger Dryas, the earth is known to have experienced a sudden cooling starting 12,800 years from the present, with the cooling lasting about 1,200 years. In addition, there is evidence of more recent and shorter cooling spells of, say, 100 years. Different regions could have experienced different degrees of change and a severe cooling event could also have been regional rather than global. If the location of Airyana Vaeja was an area like the Pamirs, a 50 to 100C drop in average temperatures would have been sufficient to make winter life very harsh (Vendidad, a book of the Zoroastrian scriptures, chapter 1.2 and 2.22). We are informed by the Avesta, that after the change in climate, the warm months (the rapithwan months) in Airyana Vaeja were shortened from the normal seven months to two months in duration (Vendidad 1.3, notes in Vendidad Sada and Bundahishn 25 - the warm months being those when the ground waters are cooler than the surface). http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm#jamshid The reason I say your view is interesting is because i have not collated all these 'bumps' with developments in agriculture and urbanism. if so we might see a surprising correlation .

Oh ! I thought you got sparked by someone treading on your OIT poodle .

Good ! As those Commies would never have taught you what what dwai is claiming Did you know Russian is a form of Sanskrit ?

You think right there. As time goes on and more research and results come in, this interrelationship is more revealed as time goes on. I became interested in this years back when they did mineral analysis on Lapis lazuli and discovered that Lapis mined in 'Bactria' (east BMAC ) found its way to NE Africa , Morocco and also into this mask ; Still on that , that is old school AIT has been out for ages now . I explained the more recent and more correct view in an earlier post . I keep asking this question but ..... Proper dating of what ? When the texts where compiled in written books or dating from what the contents are describing ? Of course ! I also explained why this is so in earlier posts - eg the IVC trading post at Shotugai in BMAC territory. But seeing Russia as part of ancient Indian territory is putting 'the cart before the horse ' (see what I did thee - an IE cultural pun ) much like seeing Sanskrit as the root of all IE language . But regarding this INTERCONNECTION (and not seeing it as some type of Indian Empire ) we can learn a lot about these ancient cultures and areas . I have even seen a wonderful IVC and BMAC 'passport' seal ; IVC seal on one side and a BMAC seal on the other . It is indeed an interesting debate ... but yes, lets return to the Sumer topic .