Nungali

You said ; " They + Commies in India claim that the right wing Hindu nationalists are the ones with the agenda. " and the sentence before that links these people to AMT . I am asking you to show us these 'commies ' that support AMT . But technically I suppose you are right because a whole lot of people from various backgrounds , including Indians, have realised and have stated that OIT is mostly pushed by Hindu Nationalist Party . So if everyone else but OIT pushers thinks this, I suppose it does include some 'commies' AMT is NOT a 'myth' what it says in the Vedas is more likely to be a myth . Thats MORE than obvious . Traditional religious scholars of Vedas should stick to their subject - religion. And the using of religion and scripture in 'science' is specifically an 'Indian problem' . Actually the way Indians try to debate this issue is internationally known as 'the Indian problem' , it has to do with the way they try to debate scientifically by using religion and scripture . The root of the 'problem' is that traditionally India has had an culture that blends the esoteric and exoteric , right up to the present . Western scholarship made a division between the two a few centuries back . And that is why I offered to direct people to the full debate so as not to tie this thread up with it here . The thing is, in the full debate, its soooo obvious that OIT gets absolutely slammed on multiple levels . Good idea . What have you got to offer as an insight about Sumer ?

Its a funny episode ^ full of laughs

Here is a joke for you then

Laughing at it does not address any of the points bought up . ... oh , thats right , you no longer have the time or inclination to address it .

It is a cop out and it is covered by more bunk . Aryan 'race' is BS . What has been looked at is Aryan CULTURE and I can put up evidence to show from archaeology and genetics that the people of BMAC had a very mixed ethnic background (and I use those words as there is no such thing as 'race'. ) ONE meaning that came to develop , mostly in the Indian branch, does mean 'noble' but it isnt the only meaning. At different times and places, sub-sets of Arya had various meanings for the word . Again, in archaeology and in anthropology Aryan is a designation of a type of culture . If you dont care to expend your energies on this stuff you should not have made bias claims in the first place and also should not have thought that calling people that ascribe to the academic view 'commies' would be ignored. What, you thought that would NOT 'call me out ' ? Well, I am called out and if you cant back up what you have said, I am calling YOU out for right wing bullshit . Please demonstrate how the scholars involved in the development of AMT (around the world) are 'commies' . Otherwise, what you wrote is right wing conspiracy BS .

Here is an interesting map that shows the ' world ' at the time of 'Old Sumerian ' https://indo-european.eu/maps/chalcolithic/

..... weighing things . I wonder what this represents in a culture ???

Sounds good. I would read it . Regarding what i was saying before about Aryan ingress INTO India and BMAC . This site is a neat summary; https://www.popflock.com/learn?s=Bactria-Margiana_Archaeological_Complex eg ; " The Bactria-Margiana complex has attracted attention as a candidate for those looking for the material counterparts to the Indo-Iranians (Aryans), a major linguistic branch that split off from the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Sarianidi himself advocates identifying the complex as Indo-Iranian, describing it as the result of a migration from southwestern Iran. Bactria-Margiana material has been found at Susa, Shahdad, and Tepe Yahya in Iran, but Lamberg-Karlovsky does not see this as evidence that the complex originated in southeastern Iran. "The limited materials of this complex are intrusive in each of the sites on the Iranian Plateau as they are in sites of the Arabian peninsula." A significant section of the archaeologists are more inclined to see the culture as begun by farmers in the Near Eastern Neolithic tradition, but infiltrated by Indo-Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture in its late phase, creating a hybrid. In this perspective, Proto-Indo-Aryan developed within the composite culture before moving south into the Indian subcontinent. As James P. Mallory phrased it: It has become increasingly clear that if one wishes to argue for Indo-Iranian migrations from the steppe lands south into the historical seats of the Iranians and Indo-Aryans that these steppe cultures were transformed as they passed through a membrane of Central Asian urbanism. The fact that typical steppe wares are found on BMAC sites and that intrusive BMAC material is subsequently found further to the south in Iran, Afghanistan, Nepal, India and Pakistan, may suggest then the subsequent movement of Indo-Iranian-speakers after they had adopted the culture of the BMAC. " .. and some interesting pictures : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Handled_Weight_LACMA_M.2001.11_(1_of_3).jpg

Oh they are similar, the question is which way the influence went . Now, you would know as a linguist , about how the IE language 'net' interrelates, so if we look for the 'ripples' in that net we come to conclusions from all different linguistic sources, that do not indicate Sanskrit as the root language that Influenced Russian and related languages . There are some Russian related languages that have remarkable similarities with Sanskrit . The IE language 'controversy' is basic and comes about nowadays by people thinking that European languages influenced Indo European and not realising that IE describes a set of old languages and evolved modern ones that expanded from Europe to parts of India ... that is Europe was the 'destination' not the origin . This is further confused by various IE ' language homeland' ( Urhimat ) hypothesis some say Balkans some say outside of Europe in Steppe . There is also confusion between Aryan and IE origins, language and homelands .

And I think you just tagged this main stream and consensus multidisciplinary view, which is academic both within and without Indian Universities as 'they' ... being them that oppose AIT ( Aryan Invasion Theory ) AMT (Aryan Migration Theory) 'nonsense ' ( your word , and thus supporting Out of India Theory ... and that means all the stuff that GOES with OIT as well ) : " nonsense. They + Commies in India claim that the right wing Hindu nationalists are the ones with the agenda. First this view means you must be a 'commie' does it ? Interesting ! And 2nd, after the above is read , it is again 'interesting' to see who you are claiming has ' the agenda ' . Now, I am not surprised that someone who studies Vedanta, view that their schools interpretation of the Vedas , and the Vedas themselves, especially from an old school traditional teacher ... or just listens to one , is going to take on a similar view ie The Vedas 'tops' all other explanations of things . Just like the Bible does for people that believe in that .

I am well aware of the dynamics here and the numbers of researches, results and vocalists on both sides . That link you made is pretty bizarre . It is saying all these wacky things that are NOT in the modern concepts of 'Aryan' migration into India and disputing them to knock out AIT that the research DOES NOT indicate in the first place . I believe that is called 'straw man ;, in this case 'straw men' A couple of examples . First they always criticise AIT ... that was out yonks back and went to AMT , things are still a little unclear and thats why I used the term I did ; 'ingress' , THAT seems certain, Case in question , the skeletons cited , once some one said they where killed by invades , more research has shown that isnt the case - it sites our old 'friend' climate change. This too is up for debate (but seems to be likely as PART of the process ) . Discovering that invades didnt slaughter those skeletons does not negate all the other evidence . And things in it like this : " “The ancient-DNA results completely reject the theory of steppe pastoral or ancient Iranian farmers as source of ancestry to the Harappan population " WHO considered that they where ? Harrappan / IVC has always been seen as a separate evolved people society cultural complex, etc . When it went into decline and its focused moved east, then people from the north (Aryans) came in . First it was claimed as an invasion that wiped the originals out, then as a migration which displaced them and now as, sort of, someone filling a void . According to my studies in Central Asia and BMAC culture (which I might add is significant , I know this as I discuss on other forums based on history and archaeology (one with a strong representation in several threads on AIT AMT OOI theories and the pros there know little of BMAC ), there was contact LONG ago between the two ( IVC had a trading post at Shortugai, well over the Hindu Kush ) , any 'steppe' people or indeed postulated Aryan Culture that came to India went through the BMAC filter first , ie, it was a culture adapted by many influences . Sometimes IVC had more influence In BMAC areas and sometime visa versa, until (with the climate change scenario ) and a drying and a failure of A monsoon ( IVC used to be a double monsoon season ) and probably, political and organisational 'fluctuations' BMAC ( with an oasis based agricultural ) moved south into an area of NW India that had that population moving east and south due to the same reasons ) . Nowadays it is not considered that Aryans invaded and destroyed IVC culture, it lived on, it just moved and transformed , There are several other major faults in the article that really stand out . Obviously this is part of the 'Out of India' theory, where 'some people' ( see how I nicely avoided the term 'Hindu Nationalist Party' there ) are trying to prove that not only did 'Indians ' have a culture that spread up through Central Asia and into the Steppe and Russia , but so did their language - Indo European ( a much misunderstood term ) is a form of Sanskrit that went 'out of India' all through Europe ... and other stuff . If anyone wants to go further into this I can direct you to these debates I am involved with elsewhere, which have a much more academic nature . But some are professionals , both western and Indian ... and some even Western Indians ... and Indians in the West Eg " The fact that you consistently claim the interdisciplinary findings of thousands of geologists, zoologists, archaeologists, botanists, linguists, historians, anthropologists, climate scientists, geneticists, and those from numerous other disciplines are wrong and only your interpretations, which are rooted in some archaic tradition whose fundamental purpose did not intersect with any of these fields, are right starts us off on the wrong footing. These external findings are correct and the interpretations based on them are likewise valid. There is no way to debate with you until you accept this. In what follows, I'll yet again draw on bodies of evidence (like linguistics and archaeology) outside of the RV on the principle that a model (in this case AMT and the steppe hypothesis) should be consistent with and corroborated by most (or all) of the available evidence stemming from a variety of disciplines. This applies not just to proper interpretations (i.e. not yours) of the RV on linguistic and anthropological grounds but also external evidence for the AMT/steppe hypothesis in the form of archaeology, geology, climate science, genetics, and so on. Of course, you'll erroneously state anything outside the RV does not mean or amount to anything, that {x: x \in Hindu literature} is the only set of sources anyone needs, and that any external evidence that contradicts the RV itself must be wrong. Know that if your response to this post is of such a form, then save both of us some time and don't bother because neither of us will ever agree so long as we maintain disparate standards of evidence.

'Competing studies ' ? Interesting .

I vote we ban Brian's appendix from his body .

... $20 up front first before any questions answered .

First does the term 'composition' as used by dwai mean an oral tradition or the tradition that appeared, written via the process my quote above describes . WHICH by the way is by a VERY traditional Indian scholar (in their sense of the term ) and not a 19 c western academic . Secondly, I am assuming that you know as well as I do about the wealth and extent of genetic and linguistic information to support an ... let's call it ... 'an ingress' of 'Aryan' peoples into Nth India . I can easily post it here . But since you asked dwai about it, I will await his answer .

Yesterday the fire got a little closer... then more smoke . My neighbours who evacuated into town rang me just before sunset ; "What going on, why are you still out there, from town we ca see a huge mushroom cloud of smoke towering into the air and burnt leaves are falling . " So I drove up a hill to get a better view, it was hard to see what was cloud, what was smoke what was sunset and what was fire. Then burnt leaves and little lumps of charcoal started to fall. Cars kept going past my place out of the valley. some packed up. Since it was near dark and I would not even be able to tell if embers where falling or not, I left . Sometimes the fire maps do not get updated for a whole half day . This one was last updated 11 hrs ago ! No updates today so far, its all from last night and spot fires have spread alarmingly close , about 10km to the SW. There was a fire meeting yesterday and fire services said they have thrown all they have at it but it isnt stopping (yet is listed as 'being controlled' ??? ) . They fear it will cross to the south side of the valley and continue east, thats the bad side. It looks like it did that last night . So now fires to the NW and SW IN the valley. They say it may impact the south side of the local town, where it abuts forest. The small local hospital will have to be evacuated . I came back this morning and its covered in burnt leaves , I did a hose down, grabbed some stuff I forgot ( a pillow and blankets fer Gawds sake - I forgot them ! ) I still cant tell how close or where the fires are, so I am going back to town soon - I and some of my stuff are staying on the north side, across the river , supposedly a safer spot , and near the show ground, the main safety point . Just as well the wind is down to 10kph and the temps cool . Fire sevices said they where worried that the fire might hit the town southern edges, nearby inhabited valleys and then continue east all the way to the coast, they said this happened in the 60s . Now hardly any cars are leaving, maybe they all gone .... the smoke is a different colour now and its eerily quiet - before the 'storm' ? I'm outa here .

Written complied texts or oral tradition? Opinion of a friend I converse with in India ( the 'Arctic origins of the Vedas guy ) - he is very elderly , a Brahman, and some caste that is in charge of ritual and ceremonies . " Most of RigVeda was written after Aryans reached India, i.e., Book 1 and 10, which constitute about 25% of it. The older books, Book 2 - 7, constitute 38% of RigVeda. Then, the books are not in any chronological order. One will find a hymn composed in an earlier era in between the hymns composed in a later era, and vice-versa. Even the older hymns are not the original hymns. They were translations of the oldest hymns by later poets who were living in a locale different from the locales in which the older hymns were written. The common language kept changing from whatever was used in the Indo-European times to Early Vedic and then to Later Vedic. They had no idea about what the old hymns were referring to and transcribed what seemed to them to be the most probable. That is why there is a tradition as old as 2000 BCE of grammarians and poets trying to find the meaning of what was written in the older hymns. These people were called Niruktikaras (Nirukti means etymology). And then lastly the hymns were compiled according to the supposed families of the hymn writers. The best knowledge about locales and conditions in which RigVeda was written comes from astronomical and climatic references. One cannot be sure that if RigVeda was talking about an Ashwattha tree, whether it was the Indian Banyan or pepul tree or a fig tree in Central Asia, both belong to the same genera. If they were talking about Saraswati, which Saraswati was it. Was it the Saraswati in punjab or River Argandhab in Kandhar region of Afghanistan known to Zoroastrians as Haraxvaiti, and there are two more rivers in Turkmenistan and Kazakhistan which are known a Sari-Su (which means a Golden River). Hakara is an extension of Ghaggar, a channel which will have water when there are copious rains. It was an outflow from the Vijaynagar Anupgarh Suratgarh Hanumangarh depression where Saraswati dried up. There may have been times when Saraswati (by which I mean Ghaggar) may have joined Sutlej or Indus directly. Sutlej is a trans-Himalayan river, Yamuna rises in deep Himalayas, both are snow-fed, while Ghagghar rises in low Sivalik hills, the first range of mountains after the plains. Ghaggar has extensive flow in times of good rains and floods the area frequently. As perhas you know, researchers date the change around 1,900 BCE because of climate change as well as tectonic upheaval, both of which are quite possible. Even two days ago there was an earthquake in that area, but fortunately, it measured just 3.2 on Richter scale. It is a grade IV tectonic region. There have been much stronger quakes in recent times in Simla (Himachal pradesh) and Uttarkashi (Uttarakhand). " ........ When in the height heaven was not named, And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name, And the primeval Apsu, who begat them, And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both Their waters were mingled together, And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen; When of the gods none had been called into being, And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained; Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven. Before the Dreamtime the earth was a flat disc of sand with no features, beneath the stars. and on that earth lay Ungud - the Rainbow Serpent . Ungud would look u to the stars , to Wallenganda, the Milky Way, the big black snake . And Wallenganda asked Ungud "Why are you looking at me." and he answered "because you look so beautiful, up there with all your stars with the big black river running through the middle and all the stars around which are the campfires of your children along the river bank . But I have no children and am all alone. So wallenganda lowered her head from the sky and spat some of her water down on Ungud. Ungud took it down under the earth, diving through the surface and leaving a big sand hill behind which became Uluru . And in that water he multiplied himself and numerous rainbow serpents went out through the earth, making valleys rivers and soaks and springs. And then Unguds spread the seeds of all the different forms of life where ever they went

... Oh, I forgot my prelude link to match your one about Handcock ; Enjoy http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/tedx-issues-warning-about-graham-hancock-calling-his-speech-outdated-and-counterfactual https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-there-wasnt-an-advanced-civilization-12-000-years-ago/ http://www.badarchaeology.com/lost-civilisations/graham-hancocks-lost-civilisation/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/09/03/what-archaeologists-really-think-about-ancient-aliens-lost-colonies-and-fingerprints-of-the-gods/#34ba2c77ab0c

Yes I can explain this ; overall, instead of a big wall of off topic text, its a big wall of off topic pictures . And it is the usual style ; just a whole heap of images stuck together with no reference, back ground analysis or meaning (aside from the end comment about Enoch) . Things are presented this way on the internut so those that do not have a deeper understanding will make visual associations and think " Gosh ! Look at that .... it looks like ..... " The abso classic debunk in this subject are the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs touted a while back all over the internet and sites that showed helicopter , UFO and tank ..... people looked at it and where ' WOW! Lookit that ! " and writing all sorts of fantastical stuff about it . Because they did not understand, know or have any background in what they where looking at . Yet felt their superficial but yet outlandish explanations where valid and true . Which seems just as biased as insisting the current academic explanations must be true . Thing is, they change as more info comes to light . The radical explanations do not change as more info comes to light , the more info is ignored, and in some cases outright lied about and falsified . I have busted a few of those here over the years . And in other places . One was a HUGE block, impossible to carve, yet there it was , with tiny people next to it ... of course, not much accompanied info ever was posted with it. It was tracked down to be a small stone feature from somewhere else and the back ground and tiny people Photoshopped in. But New Age peeps dont talk about that one or put it up as 'evidence ' any more . Just sweep those ones under the carpet . Pic 1 . is also a big wall. People like walls, they have been making them for ages . 2. Is a mosaic joinery in stone to help with earthquake resistance. 3. Shows 'bosses' / protrusions so a stone can be manipulated into place by leverage and slings . Thing is if you put the rope around the block, underneath , when you put it in place m how ya gonna get the rope out ? This problem was solved by Masons with the 'masonic lewis' . The reason different cultures used it is that is how you do it, when you only have the technology they did . A bit like how some pottery jugs have handles on the side , in Mexico, Azerbaijan or Ethiopia . 4. One must assume that the H figure is supposed to show something significant . Why not use 'T' s ? There are heaps more T designs in things all over the world ! 5. Some decorative block carved out of a relatively soft rock . I realise the pop rant on this is that this stone is very hard , but , ummmmm ... they lied. 6. Yes, thats a big ornate gateway . It cracked . Probably not from a UFO laser cannon . 7. Then a series of skull pictures (or just some funny hats ) from different cultures. A type of skull binding that has been done in different cultures. One could ask THOSE people that did it why they did it . or we can make up our own reasons . Only if you dont closely examine the de-bunking or intelligent analysis that has been done on a lot of this . But whatever , if you still think lightening is caused by the Gods being angry , doesnt matter one way or the other if you get hit by it . Not that I want to spoil anyone's fun or anything

Contact with New Age Enlightened Masters .

And he thought it was a real post and acclaimed it for its wisdom