Nungali

... so we have two types Those that fear not death and believe in a life thereafter and those that fear not death, with no belief in a life thereafter - two very different things , I'd say . Those that can accept a 'nothingness' that gets 'reformed' somehow , and those that accept an 'absolute nothingness' .

Not for Swinburne , who wrote that ^ He was a reactionary against Victorian (and latter ) religious 'resurrectional hopefullness' ; I kneel not neither adore you, but standing, look to the end. All delicate days and pleasant, all spirits and sorrows are cast Far out with the foam of the present that sweeps to the surf of the past: Where beyond the extreme sea-wall, and between the remote sea-gates, Waste water washes, and tall ships founder, and deep death waits: Where, mighty with deepening sides, clad about with the seas as with wings, And impelled of invisible tides, and fulfilled of unspeakable things, White-eyed and poisonous-finned, shark-toothed and serpentine-curled, Rolls, under the whitening wind of the future, the wave of the world. The depths stand naked in sunder behind it, the storms flee away; In the hollow before it the thunder is taken and snared as a prey; .... Thou art more than the Gods who number the days of our temporal breath; Let these give labour and slumber; but thou, Proserpina, death. Therefore now at thy feet I abide for a season in silence. I know I shall die as my fathers died, and sleep as they sleep; even so. For the glass of the years is brittle wherein we gaze for a span; A little soul for a little bears up this corpse which is man. So long I endure, no longer; and laugh not again, neither weep. For there is no God found stronger than death; and death is a sleep. ( some people found his writings on death a ' little confronting' )

He should have used that cat in this ;

My cat cosplays Ninja from Die Antwoord -

They key here is that the term 'Abrahamic Religions' ignore their real roots as the term Abrahamic can not include Zoroastrianism , which is the precursor ; (early Aryan , Pre-Vedic off shoot) > Zoroastrianism > Judaism > Christianity > Islam > Baha'i . 'Evolution' via the process of ' Progressive Revelation' . The earliest Zoroastrian writings (which seem to be a MEMORY of a much earlier time ) have an origin in BMAC area (which is now recognised as a 'cradle of civilisation' along with Tigres Euphrates Valley, Nile Valley, and Indus Valley Civilisations . We have a collection of lands that these early 'Zoroastrians' knew about ; Note the settlement patterns from Central Asia, north of the Zargos Mts ('The wilderness ' ? ) , across the 'top' , skirting the south sides around the seas, up into Anatolia and only the headwaters of the Tigres and Euphrates - they didnt know about the lower valley / T&G rivers agricultural area. And back then, who ever was in that area ( the Sumerians ? ) didnt seem to know about them . After these people 'disappeared' ( the record of their events comes to an abrupt end - victims of the 'Bronze Age Collapse' ? ) we know no more about them until the first written Assyrian accounts of them as 'Pasa' coming down from the mountains ( wilderness ) ; The Assyrians started to report 'Pasa' being a nuisance and coming down from wilderness and raiding . Actually, the many tribes to the east (headwaters of Karun river ) got so pissed off about Assyrian raids on them they started banding together , the Pasa joined them and then became known as the Persia .... who when they all kicked Assyria's arse, became the leaders (by minor matter of killing a non Persian relative leader) invaded the Tigres Euphrates area and made the area part of the new Persian Empire .... which then went back and reclaimed all their old lands back to .... well, virtually, China . Thus uniting all the 'cradles of civilisation' from Egypt, through Mesopotamia , south Central Asia (BMAC) all the way to the Indus. And making the biggest Empire ever seen . yeah.... I know ! But not as bad as the others though , they had a 'wise kingship' policy - basically, live and let live ( just dont rebel and make sure you pay your taxes ) But really, if one looks at it, it was the previous guys that did thing like raid Israel and lead thousands off to their home in slavery . The great Persian Empire leader Cyrus released them, sent them home in a caravan, with guards as protectors, and goods ... and riches enough to rebuild their Temple at Jerusalem. So, I am wondering if these H&G / pastoral 'wilderness people' the Sumerians speak of are the remnant people from the old 'Zoroastrian culture' (or 'Zoroastrian memories' ), the survives after their cultures collapsed are these people in the 'wilderness' and if that is the Zargos and if these emerging 'Pasa' in Assyrian times where their descendants ? - They certainly seemed a lot more :user friendly than the Sumerians and Assyrians .

'aesthetics '

And from what wilderness did they 'come DOWN' from ? ( and why didnt the Sumerians go 'up into' that area ('wilderness') and why didnt the 'wild people' 'come down' into Sumerian lands much earlier than they did and what where they doing 'up' there anyway ... and who where they ? )

We are not sure of sorrow, And joy was never sure; To-day will die to-morrow; Time stoops to no man's lure; And love, grown faint and fretful, With lips but half regretful Sighs, and with eyes forgetful Weeps that no loves endure. From too much love of living, From hope and fear set free, We thank with brief thanksgiving Whatever gods may be That no life lives for ever; That dead men rise up never; That even the weariest river Winds somewhere safe to sea. Then star nor sun shall waken, Nor any change of light: Nor sound of waters shaken, Nor any sound or sight: Nor wintry leaves nor vernal, Nor days nor things diurnal; Only the sleep eternal In an eternal night.

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The planets are always 'shuffling' .... any given moment is a 'spread' and a 'reading' . The main difference is , with the planets, the arrangement isn't based on a random process.

.......... Uranus.......... Pluto...............Neptune Saturn | | Jupiter .............. SUN .............. ..............Mercury......... ................MOON ......... Mars ........................Venus I showed it to one astrologer that is into Kabbalah and they said 'So what, that is your basic astrological set up' - everyone knows about that ! .

I didnt . that is ONE aspect of it . Ahhh ... Siddhis ! The most dangerous temptation to lead one OFF the path of self development in Yoga and Magic ! Although this forum and this world is full of people seeking the same , there are some in this world and on this forum ( Buddhist Daoist and Hindu ) that will warn you against seeking these things, for the very reason I just stated . But if you want that, at the expense of self development ... thats your call . What DO you do for self development, by the way ? They could ? Like these ? Oh, I agree the New Age is crap ... they dont understand anything and just repeat it , with some times obvious hilarious mistakes . Like squashing an innocent flower Sitting on a HALF of a lotus is even harder But, yeah , a full one .... if its Victoria amazonica ( and has one of those thin metal plate inserts ) ... Now you are 'blaming' this on New Age people ? As I pointed out above ...... errrm , THAT criticism is just as old as the other stuff you claimed was originated in Blavatsky and Crowley . It is an age old warning, the one against seeking siddhis . Okay how about 'doing development' then ? Also how does NON action come into it BEFORE one's consciousness is disassociated with ego ? Unless, here we are communicating with a consciousness that already has in you ? If that is your claim, well, errrmmmm really ? If not then you better start seeking development and develop, or you will never get to the place you would need to to do without it ... in the first place . So what are you really saying here ? Errrrmmmm .... dude .... they already DO ! Its NOT ignoring reality it is using reality and is embedded in reality . Maybe read Crowley's intro to the subject of Magick in Book 4 ... you might get a surprise . Many comment on all this yet have not even read this simple introduction to what he was on about . Do you what he considered a bona-fide evocation ? It wasnt some psychological gobbledegook at all ! Like I said before , which you seem to have missed ... consider it more like a King .... of your domain , with subjects resident, visiting, rebellious, migrating, passing through, invading, whatever . And by the way ... I have yet to see ONE SINGLE GOD levitate a pen . Why on earth would I want to anyway , I just pick it up . Its nearly time for a Sufi Story and not like those non delusional people that see angels, talk to them LITERALY levitate pens and believe in GOD ... no personality disorders there . We did that as youth . .. means nothing unless you can prove what the results are though If this isnt for development , why do it at all ? To 'prove the supernatural' ? Okay ... and then what ? To get advice ? Isnt that related to improving things and development . Or do you just want the 'magical power' .other if one didnt want to use all this for self development ... unless its the old 'pre psychological' reasons ; power over others, ensuring a place in heaven ? Love ( ie sex) ? Finding lost treasure ? perhaps 'seeing a naked maiden ? These are all the end results of the medieval Christian magicians , after a time of purification, prayer, fasting, mastery in the name of God, commanding spirits in Gods name ....... to see a naked maiden . Yeah ... I think magic needed a good dose of psychology and some self development injection there ! Well, that is exactly why I accept 'the other' . .. as you might imagine I am highly critical and sceptical, rational and logical , but after so much personal evidence of being 'unable to explain what happens to me and tries to convince me that they are but a part of my mind', I no way of convincing others would be selling out my critical and rational side and being obviously, even to myself, hypocritical. The thing is, these things JUST convince ME.... I have no way of convincing others . If you have a way, go for it ... you will be first in history to do it since the scientific revolution ! Come on ... show us the proof ! I cant ... that is why I think there is more going on than in your explanation and why I graduate more towards Harpur's . Dude ! Of course there are things beyond the physical ! There is the 'real' and the 'ideal' ... even modern science agrees with that . I am talking about something beyond THIS duality of normal perception... and it isnt a 'unity ' of perception as that is impossible for us. It is a three part , 'tripartite' view .... 'three in one' is as close to 'unity' as we are going to get .

Then, if you disdain that, why on earth do you converse with 'angels' ? And why would they 'test' you , as you claimed, if self improvement is not on the cards ? They do not relate to the supraconscious ? They DO relate to the ' conscious, rational, or logical ' ? In communicating with them there is no ' state or fact of transcending normal human consciousness' ? Cast a fireball ? Okay then , we will wait until then . Not sure how an ancient Roman siege weapon is going to help you though I have already outline how I think there is more to 'it' than shadowork and psychophylosophy. So, must be Integrated ; ... just give him a little nudge over the edge and ... Ware, nor of good nor ill, what aim hath act? Without its climax, death, what savour hath Life? an impeccable machine, exact He paces an inane and pointless path To glut brute appetites, his sole content How tedious were he fit to comprehend Himself! More, this our noble element Of fire in nature, love in spirit, unkenned Life hath no spring, no axle, and no end. His body a bloody-ruby radiant With noble passion, sun-souled Lucifer Integrated Swept through the dawn colossal, swift aslant On Eden's imbecile perimeter. He blessed nonentity with every curse And spiced with sorrow the dull soul of sense, Breathed life into the sterile universe, With Love and Knowledge drove out innocence The Key of Joy is disobedience. . Loss of soul can be explained literally now ? Please explain your idea of the soul then .... in a literal ('the usual or most basic sense without metaphor or exaggeration' ) way . Do you think ideas about things (especially like soul and angels ) can change over time according to the collective consciousness of that time ? Or do you think the original idea of an angel (as in Zoroastrianism, where we inherited the idea from) was wrong, Judaism was wrong about it , Christianity got it right somehow , Islam wrong and Bahai wrong, Jung wrong ? . Or any variation depending on which religion you like, where born into or live in a culture still dominated by it . . The sources of what ? They are not certainly the sources of what Jung is talking about . They are not the sources for concepts of soul or angels. Psychological understandings have their source in psychology origins, not Blavatsky or Crowley. And you cant blame them for concepts of Higher Consciousness or 'Supreconsciousness' which is a psychological term. being flexible with what that term actually means - a 'higher consciousness' the roots are in the Vedas, particularly the Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads... all the way through to the Greeks ... in modern times it was developed by German idealism and others ( see Fichte - which came from Advaita anyway), Schopenhauer ( who got it from Fichte ) . It was the 19th C that it arose again as 'Theosophy ' and Blavatsky got it from Fichte and those same sources ; " Theosophy [...] prompted such men as Hegel, Fichte and Spinoza to take up the labours of the old Grecian philosophers and speculate upon the One Substance - the Deity, the Divine All proceeding from the Divine Wisdom - incomprehensible, unknown and unnamed ." - Blavatsky in 'What is Theosophy' . And these people where basically 'table rappers' and spiritualists ..... mediums and seances . And in that regard Blavatsky was well 'exposed' Crowley never had anything to do with that and spat upon it - he lauded Blavatsky , until it all changed into theosophy and table wrapping , his spirit communications where based on the hermetic and Neo-platonic traditions . he did incorporate modern (then ) psychology into his writings and theories to an extent but certainly did NOT ignore the other view, as he incorporated all modern and ancient knowledge into his system , not just holding a 'psychological view of magic' . So I dont know what 'all this' you are claiming is that Blavatsky AND Crowley where both the sources of ? ..... But I DO get that you are pissed off about something .

(and since I dont have time for a read though and correction ... heaven knows what on earth I wrote up there )

I am referring to the schema I outlined in my post on page 2 You must have read it as you 'thanked' it . Okay. I think that function , lets call it 'the cover up' can be conscious in some, semi in others and a full blown unconscious reaction in others . I also know that to casually reveal one's 'shadow' and strip of the ' mask of niceness' is very socially confronting and perhaps ' socially inept' .... as I do that sometimes . Which opens up another whole cans of worms ..... why DO that ... when most do not . Yes, it seems that way. That would be 'projection' wouldnt it ? Yes, individually and collectively ( also in a short and long time frame * ) . Hence Harpur's view on the changing metaphor of the experience; Goddess, Fairy Queen, Virgin Mary , Space Alien Woman . He cites an experience related by 'people' and then told to other groups, they all are certain what is described fulfils their definitions for either the Goddess, fairy Queen, etc . Then the explanation is given from the people that told the story; they where certain they had been visited by 'their ancestors'. And on an individual level also as we develop and change these interactions might take on different meanings and 'constructed .forms' of 'interaction'. Jung himself had some pretty fantastic ones ! I read a great book once who title eludes me . The 'complex range' here was history and how these above 'interactions' have changed over time ( from ancestors to Gods , to demons and angels through to good and bad aliens ... 'blues and grays' or whatever the division is ) according to developments in human technologies and culture of the times . So the rule set should not be formed from the projection, but by similarities throughout the projections . In a way . Good question ! It just seems the propensity of some to enjoy that and for others to fear it. Where does THAT come from? . I am tempted to answer ; 'because it feels so good afterwards ' but that doesnt explain the impetus. One of the higher imitations is 'Annihilation' (P.I.) , it comes after the degree that allows entry into the Lodge, so in the Lodge are 'the unannihilated' and the 'annihilated' and those 'beyond'. The P.I. are stripped of their rank, insignia, motto, weapons tools, whatever. They have a concealed (or no) identity. Their robe is all plain black and covers the face. They are , or try to emulate 'Mr Nobody' . I felt very comfortable in that position, as did one of my 'brothers' . Yet some fear ot so much they dont go near that and stop at the 'glorified' level before it. Even stranger, some go on through it and afterwards STILL maintain their magical ego identity ... evidence that ritual and ceremony alone is just a adjunct too change . I also experienced the same dynamic when I was involved in practices of 'annihilation' in Tibetan Buddhism ( Kargu Karma and their Chod meditations ) . Perhaps one made the other more 'comfortable' ? But no, as I go back I see a pattern . I even remember my mother being very worried about me and relaying a dream she had about me as a child ; the family is out at a picnic or something, the shy darkens, a storm approaches, thunder rumbles , lighening all around, earthquakes, the earth heaves up and splits open revealing a huge chasm into the bowels of the earth. Mom and Dad usher the children to safety, running away to a sfer place but I break off from them, run towards the hole in the earth, turn, smile, turn back and jump in. ... Mother awakes from her 'nightmare' , very concerned about ' me ' - the type of person I am . Now this mother was very straight, didnt even understand what the word psychology meant, VERY simple intellectually and a devout and practising catholic . So, where did THAT dream come from ? Can I have a propensity to 'annihilation' ? Or do I think my ego is so strong it will survive it ? Maybe not, as I do not have a strong belief in 'life after death'. Thats an interesting observation . Fanatacism seems mostly an unbalanced outcome of the path of Bhakti Yoga, devotional practices, rituals of worship. Nope . That would be VERY ironic ! ... I think that is a 'typo' . Well, the Tower seems to encapsulate what you are inferring to , if I read you right . Depends on where you draw the 'mind's' boundary ... and definition of mind [ see level / circuit 8 of exo-psychology where 'consciousness is non-local' . But generally, of course, and in normal consciousness , no, it is not possible. I dont think it WAS useless . I think I would get bored if I had all the pieces of the puzzle . Yes. I see personal evolution (when it is working) as an ever rising widening spiral. We can get back to where we where before, but we should be changed by the 'revolution' . Yes, interesting . Time has run away with me though ... gotta split to make a meeting .

“If a warrior is not unattached to life and death, he will be of no use whatsoever. The saying that “All abilities come from one mind” sounds as though it has to do with sentient matters, but it is in fact a matter of being unattached to life and death. With such non-attachment one can accomplish any feat.” “If by setting one’s heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way.” ― Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai

I have whipbirds talking to each other out in my garden this morning Pretty sure its the same one that turns up each spring for the last few . A wide range of calls, yet people seem to only sample the whip call

every three makes a four ... and so on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism#Perso-Arabic_and_Indian_medicinemedicine but also I think its genetic and goes back to the qualities of some strong (dominant genes ?) ancestral types. The latest on what info we think can be transmitted by genetic code is very surprising and covers some areas that where never associated with gene transition before , behavioral stuff and traits, study on 'separated twins' * VERY interesting . * genetic twins that had different upbringings. conditionings and environments having similar outcomes that we would previously considered controlled by vague concepts , like 'destiny' , all the way through to physical stuff (like skin cancers developing on the same part of the body, etc )

I assume you are talking 'Jungian 'shadow and that definition that includes the whole unconscious. In that case, I find the suggestion of dispelling it, or wanting to dispel it or even talking about dispelling it rather odd . Perhaps what is meant is making a better working connection with it ? That is why in my 'psychological astrological tree' the Sun is linked to the Moon (surrounded by the three main drives and the 3 inner personal planets ) through Mercury and why a central motif of hermetics is the Sun and Moon conjoined , in some way . So there are two aspects here ( and also they are in psychology ) ; the whole content of the unconscious or the main drives in the unconscious . And within either or both of those, another two aspects , the general (or whole ) unconscious and those 'animal tendencies and programmes from early evolution ... that generally constitute the 'Id' ... the 'lower programmes' ( a study of exp-psychology helps here ) . Here, with training and understanding, any drive (or force) can be balanced and harnessed to the work at hand . I suppose what is meant by the above quote and Jung's writing relating to it is that many do not want to admit the power over us of these unregulated and unbalanced drives. Most of us play civilised ... until the button is pushed or the thin veneer is stripped back, then, as has often been said , Man behaves worse than any animal ! This ( across the field ... ie. of time and locations) is the essence of initiation ; An animal (human ) with all its drives and conditionings is born and the preliminary initiation is an 'adoption' into a tribe or group. Then they must be made into a 'social animal', learn to regulate their primitive drives and conditions and go through individuation - learning about their individual identity and their collective social identity, the trade offs and advantages of this ( what you must give up , eg 'selfishness' and what you will gain eg. ' support and sharing ) Thats the first level of initiation/s - the 'animal child ' has learnt to be a human 'culturally and socially'. The next level, they are initiated into 'magicians' , they have learnt to integrate their unconscious , individual and collective . Now, imagine what happens when people start doing the 2nd without the first ! A big mess. One of the things that changed the occult outlook greatly (and was sorely needed) was psychology and developments in evolutionary sciences .... before that some systems had lost the earth connection, Man was seen as a spiritual being and very much denying these shadow or Id forces. He was ( and mostly still is) a self righteous 'spiritual' being prancing around declaring how advanced he is, but at the same time leaving a trail of devastation behind his lumbering shadow form . At least today it is acknowledged that as well as being a 'spiritual being' we are a naked ape , a primate, a hominid , with drives and desires that need to be acknowledged but also balanced and utilised . Thats a curious observation since I was pointing out that I integrate BOTH sides of the polarities that Desmond was separating .IE; " You cant only have it one way" . ( See below for further on this re 'Diamonic Reality ' ) Sometimes it seems opposing points of view are just that .... it all depends on one's level of knowledge and application. For example two people might argue if a venus fly trap is a plant or an animal . One observer might think and observe as you did above . But the botanist will see the 'argument' as something different . Yes, I do realise this is not a popular view in today's world . Many seem to think that the right to be heard and express one's view is the same as ' I have the right to be right ' < shrug > You cant NOT have a shadow. That is if you are talking about what Jung or even Freud was , in any of its aspects . So I dont get how 'long practice' comment comes into it. And actually, why all the talk about someone practising long time and 'shadow removal' ? Maybe you mean 'denial of' the shadow and not 'having no shadow' ? It seems like you are now equating 'unconscious' with 'soul' . Their functions are intertwined, but certainly not the same thing . But then again, as I have said a few times, most do not seem to understand soul; they have a vague idea that intersects with 'spirit' , 'a spirit' , a type of 'astral double', some immortal aspect or something else. And few realise the process of degeneration its definition and understanding has undergone the last few centuries , in the western context. A three part concept of body soul and spirit gradually got overtaken by dualism, with spirit and soul being squashed together and made an opposite of body ... or 'the material world' ... the 'real' and the 'ideal' - tangible / intangible . If all that sounds like gobbledegook , try ; 'Daimonic Reality' by Patrick Harpur " 'With Jung, Harpur argues that these are phenomena of the psyche, but that psyche is of the world, not just of us as individuals. Indeed, our much cherished individual selves and psyches may be no more than embodiments of that world-soul (rediscovered in our age as the goddess Gaia). The phenomena in which the book rejoices may be appearances to us of its ancient inhabitants. They appear in different forms to match changing cultural expectations and concerns. An appearance of the Goddess becomes an appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary, becomes a woman with golden hair emerging from her spacecraft. The mistake, he suggests, is to deny and repress these manifestations, since the repressed returns, pathologically and dangerously, if separated from a context of meaning and belief. Harpur suggests that a function of these daimonic forces may now be to undermine a deadening and narrow scientific orthodoxy and world-view - the 'single vision' which Blake so deplored. This sounds very radical but Harpur is the first to point out that it is not very new. By drawing on a philosophical tradition that flows down the centuries from the Neoplatonists, through the Romantics, and crucially in Bake, Yeats and Jung, he shows that there is an ancient history of understanding of this daimonic, Otherworld reality. Indeed, he goes back further still by embracing the folklore and tales of the Otherworld from across the Western tradition, and acknowledges that every culture, except perhaps our own, has seen its world as interpenetrated with another, shadowy, yet powerful reality, full of wonder, beauty and terror. The key to being alert to it lies in what Blake called the Imagination, and in not allowing the rational mind to shut out what it cannot readily comprehend or control. " And it isnt JUST creative output, that is part of the whole 'soul dynamic' and process . I think i was Robert Anton Wilson that made up (or borrowed from reality) the story of the 'Occult lecture' given to the public and at the end the lecturer said something like 'And now I will open the floor to questions, where you may quizz me on all the things you thought I said, which I didnt . " It tends to break down more when one is communicating via ' just me processing this from my own frame' and rambling. Which we all do from time to time .

Some animals are complacent and co operative .... others

NO! You devilish foreigner ! You must stick to your own ugly and nasty possums Down here, the cute and beautiful native possum ... " She not for you ! " Neither is this clutch of bandicutes Ooooo alright ! You can hold them for a minute

Yes a person can 'loose' their soul. Observe a person that has been in a long term job, relationship or situation that they do not want to be, where their individuality and creative output is stifled and you will see the results of 'soul loss' . Soul development and satisfaction is intimately linked with creative output

Ahem ..... Doctor Bacon ! But those days are long gone , I am 'Bacon retired' . From now on, its up to my relatives; Francis Bacon ... and Francis Bacon .... the XXVII th . Oh goody ! I'll give it a go <warms up fingers > and a one and a two and a ... NO WAY ! Now ... Its a spiritual forum ... LEFT ! Kilgore Trout yoghurt ... and Hat bandana Graham cracker jackhammer In a nail file suit your self service man The world's my oyster soup kitchen floor wax museum Autographed pictures of Shakespeare fishing gear Head phone Madison Square garden hose The world's my oyster soup kitchen floor wax museum Cannibal dog house plan B happy As a lark's tongue in cheek bone china doll The world's my oyster soup kitchen floor wax museum Don't ask Y2 cake and eat it too Nothing lasts for evergreen thumbscrew The world's my oyster soup kitchen door frame by frame See the first comment ^ We dont have racoons here . ... ? what ! Wrong spelling ??? lets see Racoon < right > Racoons ... wrong ! ? Raccoons ... right . What ! Hmmm ... anyway , we do have 'ringies' (ring tail possum ) ... and they will take off with ... We had a 'do here' people from the city are sitting on my verandah about to cut a cake and eat it . Possum appears and they are all ; "Oh, look at the cute little possum, look how tame he is ... gosh he is coming right up to us ..." < pause .... nabs cake and legs it > " Oi ! "

Todays weird fact about me - that many people I know think is weird but peeps on DBs here probably do not This morning I will go to the river side park in town and meet with other/s and attempt to hit each other with poles, oars, little tridents and rice harvesting sickles . ... and then jump in the river

Man has not created any concepts ? Its both . It would get VERY technical and lengthy to go onto the difference and sameness of the concepts here , the briefest way to explain is by looking at something like a 'banishing' Vs a 'balancing' ritual ; in the first a sphere is considered condensed around one and energy is pushed out or projected , it is a sphere of protection. As the magician advances (or actually, as the practitioner becomes a magician ) the sphere is expanded ( to include the 'outside' with the 'inside' ) and 'opposing' forces are bought together and balanced. I think if anyone ignores the 'magic is psychology thing' nowadays the are in for Trouble ! But that is NOT the only side of things , Where I live - when I came here there where 'forces;, very powerful 'outside of' my psyche . Now they have been integrated ... some of them. Another example is with an indigenous group I have been associated with , they have 3 or 4 main 'spirits' that seem gnarly, spooky, dangerous, demonic, MOST of the people are worried about them and avoid certain places and behaviours becasue of them . But the 'clever men' ( 'magicians') in that group see these see beings as their guardians, protectors and sources of power and knowledge and the 'spirits' where around long before they where born . I think it is rather hard to work magic when one is removed from the 'earth connection' , you have to rely on genetics, traditions or study, inherited religious conditions, etc and if you take out 'connection to country' ..... it isnt 'earthed' properly . https://www.commonground.org.au/learn/connection-to-country