Nungali

Kernel of a thought .... and of a 'soul' .

Lama Dorkdrop Lama's dork dropping . Language ! Mr Lama Dorkdrop ... to you .

Its a subject full of speculations , even by the 'experts' . History is someone's ' story ' , after all, or a combination of 'stories' . But you bring up some good points below . Yes it is used in linguistics in a certain way , but also in other definitions. Other fields such as archaeology will use 'linguistic terms' according to cross referencing in other fields, instead of , for example , referring constantly to ' a movement of painted grey ware pottery people' . Back then there probably was no concept of 'religion' or 'politics' ... like we have. Both were often more like the same thing and the words they used often equated with 'Law' . We might see it as religion and we might refer to their system back then as a religion, but consider the name they used themselves to describe their 'religion' ; ' Mazdayasno Zarathushtrish Vidaevo Ahura-Tkaesho, that is, Zarathushtrian Mazda-Worship opposed to the daeva through the laws of the Lord (Ahura) ' . I used the term political in a more modern analytical sense. But I suppose it is a point a view. I would also describe the machinations of the early "Jewish " people in the 'Promised Land' as a political motivation and movement . Not just the British. And not just India . Post WW1 Germany had a lot to do with 'building the story' of ancient Egypt . And when the British took over Egypt from the French, the French had to hand over much of their looted antiquities to the British . For more on the discarding you speak of, I recommend the works of John Romer , in his History of Ancient Egypt Vol 1. ( First Framers to the Great Pyramid ) he broaches the subject, explains developments of it and introduces 'evidence based research' - and its implications. In Vol 2 ( Great Pyramid to the Fall of The Middle Kingdom ) he goes into great depth on the subject, tracking the stages in European cultural development and 'mindset' and how that 'created' the history of ancient Egypt. But evidence based research can create even more details in 'the story' , as in the case of the recent findings of the ancient 'Merer's Diary' ..... first hand accounts ( and as usual, backed up with archaeological finds, genetic research, linguistics, etc for a greater understanding ) ... Thats right ... an invasion was assumed ..... in India ... ( but I wasnt talking about that, I was talking about their migrations generally, they were known to be a migratory people , a horse and cattle culture ) and that has become less popular, but I have heard good researchers still argue for an invasion , not from old school viewpoints but more from 'full circle' . Also some assert is was not even a migration. Others point to the evidence and say ' well what else caused this '. Others , very strict based evidence research say they only thing proved is some different pottery was found . Some have the view it all came out of India - OIT Out of India Theory . My view is the people have been going back and forwards for a very long time , that explains the genetics. We have some archaeology going back the 'other way' ; evidence of an IVC trading post up in Central Asia way before any 'invasion' dates. .... heck, we even have genetic 'evidence' of early Australoids in South America . here is 'a story' they built up from that 'evidence' ; https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2015/07/22/discovery-change-view-human-history/' I could probably put up some papers of 'proof' genetic and otherwise to support all of the above views . The deeper one gets into the history of it, the deeper and more technical the arguments . If you want to pursue it deeper beyond general opinions ; http://historum.com/search.php?searchid=5074021 It needs to be read in context with Avestas and related 'scripture' . The idea ( an Indo-Iranian relationship between asura / daeva ) became out of fashion for some time ... until fairly recently with the work of Asko Parpola ; http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780190226909.001.0001/acprof-9780190226909

... first, gets concerned and goes to her , next realises he totally stuffed up and tries to 'escape' by chucking a 'seizure' ... since one cant do that forever , next he recovers and invites all to 'join us in a circle ' .

see the old Lady at the end of the above ^ clip ? Good God, I hope she doesnt try that elsewhere ... we seen what can happen with such stupid suggestibility !

Oh yes .... I stand corrected .... Indra the 999 testicled one or... if you look closely Indra's hand is pulling the snout back bending the neck to expose the throat to cut wit the sword in his other hand ' .

'Monotheism' , under close inspection , usually emerges as a type of henotheism . Maybe not Islam ? In the earliest Vedas the Asuras are Gods that later 'fell from Grace' they become ' well-demonised' by the later Vedas. This was probably a political move after contention or war between two groups. Indra, far from being the hero, comes off like a violent self possessed warlord on crack ( soma ) and testosterone ( Indra - ' the thousand testicled one' - Rig Veda 6.45.3) * After the original establishment of the Asuras , both people ( who would later become Iranian and Indian ) had a similar religion ( Paoiryo-tkaesha - meaning keepers of the original ancient law. ) , hence the similarities you observed. Then there was a division between the two and the 'proto-Indians' developed a more 'pro military' / warlord society and gradually demonised the Gods of their now 'enemies'. The 'proto Zoroastrian' branch developed their own way, via Zoroastrianism , which, in this view is seen as a reformation movement of an earlier religion ; Ahura-tkaesha, the laws of the Lord (Ahura). Later , when there was open contention between the two groups the name (of the 'Zoroastrian religion') became Mazdayasno Zarathushtrish Vidaevo Ahura-Tkaesho, that is, Zarathushtrian Mazda-Worship opposed to the daeva through the laws of the Lord (Ahura) So, both were new developments and contrast between the 'old Gods' and the emerging militant 'Aryan Indian' development of the Gods is best observed in this passage - Rig Veda (4.42.1-6) ; * "I, Varuna, am the king; first for me were appointed the dignities of asura, the Lord. I let the dripping waters rise up, and through rta I uphold the sky." Indra replies, "Men who ride swiftly, having good horses, call on me when surrounded in battle. I, the bountiful Indra, provoke strife. I whirl up the dust, my strength is overwhelming... . No godlike power can check me - I who am unassailable. When draughts of Soma, when songs have made me frenzied, then both the unbounded regions are filled with fear." Here we see a 'Daeva' presiding over power and might while the asuras preside over the establishment of a moral and social order. For instance, the deva Indra is guardian of victory in battle while the asuras Varuna and Mitra are the guardians of the cosmic and moral laws . Its a usual process, during war or conflict to demonise the Gods of 'the other' , even if previously they were respected . Here we have 'Durga devi' killing Mahish-asura who is shown in the form of a buffalo demon.

" he had two brains inside his own skull -- as we all do, one on the left and one on the right hemisphere. When it comes to seeing the world around us, each of our two brains works independently and each has its own bottleneck for working memory. " https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110620161313.htm But ... okay lets ignore that and call it one brain in your head ..... but you still got another one ; " Not many people realize they have two brains. Yes, you read that right. And your second brain may have more to do with your health that you ever imagined. " http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/tale-two-brains-how-your-second-brain-key-understanding-many-chronic-illnesses Scientists Discovered ‘Second Brain’ in the Human Body https://www.learning-mind.com/scientists-discovered-second-brain-in-the-human-body/

I was in .... in the 80s .... Hail Eris !

New edition to my rainforest garden Beehive ginger . I already have taller blue ones they blue flowers fall and decorate the green moss path in to the cabin

.... you mean ' our brains operate on the concept of dualism ' ... https://www.sciencealert.com/watch-you-are-actually-two-brains-living-in-one-person

Ha ha haaar ! You guys are a crack up .... save yourselves some time and skip all the fake Lama BS at the beginning of this vid and go to 1:25 ... seriously ?

Originally a monotheism of deity but a dualism of 'good and evil' in humans .

...... I hope you didnt give the left overs to the cat !

Lois , did you have any mushrooms with your dinner ?

I looked into it a bit further ; the earliest Avestan 'scripture' are the Gathas and that is where the concept of Spenta, Vohu and Angra Mainyu first appear ( in the 'Spenta Mainyu Gatha' ) , and usually translated as 'mind' , as it appears in the this translation of the relevant hymn ; http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/gathas_spenta_mainyu_gatha.htm Yasna 47 - 51 Regarding Translations of the terms and stages of development and understanding ( re ; personification / deification Vs 'quality' ) But with the advent of Zoroastrian studies, led and encouraged by Western scholars, a change set in. Studies of the Gathas and the later Avesta revealed that spenta mainyu was referred to as an entity. And since then, almost all Zoroastrians and those who are well acquainted with the Zarathushtrian religion know the term spenta mainyu. Because the Gathas and the later Avesta were translated into English and other European languages, mostly by Christian scholars who had the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit in mind, the term has conventionally come to mean the Holy Spirit. The general notion about it is that it has an adversary, Anghra Mainyu, the evil spirit. The two are locked in a pitched life-and-death combat. The victory, of course, will go to the Holy Spirit. Meaning: Spenta is derived by many philologists from an Avestan/Sanskrit root spi/svi, meaning "to expand, swell, increase." Many, therefore, render it as "incremental." The Pahlavi rendering of afzûnik, meaning "increasing," fully supports the translation. This is further strengthened by the later renderings mahattama (greatest), gurutama (most important), and particularly, vriddhi (increasing) in Sanskrit, and afzûni in Persian. There are other scholars who prefer to derive it from spit/shvit, to be bright, to be white, and consequently connect it with holiness. The renderings by most of these scholars range between "beneficent, bounteous, bountiful, incremental, holy and virtuous." Each scholar has reasons for his/her rendering. While scholars have reason to differ, the familiar and convenient "holy" has been taken for granted to be the meaning so much so that fundamental Iranians, in their drive to purge Persian of all Arabic words, have replaced moghaddas with sepanta! "Holy" is in vogue, both with scholars and the laity. I accept the traditional meaning on philological and contextual grounds. I render it as "progressive, promoting, promoter." As we shall see, it reflects the Gathic concept better. The Gathas emphatically advocate progress and advancement. Mainyu is, as far as I know, derived by every scholar and Avesta/Sanskrit dictionary from man, meaning "to think, contemplate, meditate." Ervad Kanga gives "spirit, mind, brain" and Bartholomae gives "Geist, als Sitz des Denkens und Wollens - spirit/mind, the seat of thoughts and intentions." Even the Sanskrit dictionaries define it as "mind, zeal, spirit, mood, mettle." And "spirit" here only means "temper or disposition of mind" and NOT "a supernatural being or essence." Although many know that yu is an agentive and instrumental suffix, none has bothered to translate it as "an instrument, a way, a mode of thinking," and therefore "mind, mentality." A few instances in the Gathas show that mainyu and manah are interchangeable (S 6:6 = Y 33.6; S 7:2 = Y34.2). Pahlavi and Persian do not help much because they have the same word as menok and mînu except for a few times when menishn, thinking, has been used. The root for "think" is menidan. The Pahlavi literature shows its connection with "mind" and "mental." Sanskrit renderings of adrsyah, paralokih, even manasah (mental), and other synonyms point towards an "invisible, outer" entity. Whatever the earlier renderings, the scholars have taken the by-now-popular translation of "spirit" in the Christian sense as quite suitable to their interpretation of a perpetual war between the so-called twin spirits. It suits them better. A departure may well topple the dramatic dualistic theory! Many present Ahura Mazda as Spenta Mainyu and therefore elevate Anghra Mainyu to make him an adversary of the God of Good, and thus continue to write on the continuous fight between the two. As a result, Zoroastrians have been characterized by many as the people who believe in dualism. As already pointed out, there was a time when the Zoroastrians believed in this dualistic "theology." The Vendidad tells us this and so do the writings written by and/or ascribed to the Sassanians and to those who followed them. New light on the Gathas and the later Avesta has changed views among intellectuals. But we see again a recession, because with the coming into prominence of a new class of Zoroastrian scholars with their academic roots in the dualistic scholarship of the later Avesta, the theory of the dualism of Ahura Mazda and His adversary is reappearing in certain quarters. ( extract ) ; http://www.zoroastrian.org.uk/vohuman/Article/Spenta Mainyu.htm

I feel this is because the model is in its early forms and has become restricted and limited by some. psychology has some interesting concepts and terms that are real and workable, just as astrology has in understanding the makeup of the human 'psychic anatomy' ( psychic , as pertaining to 'the psyche' ) but psychology is not the be all and end all answer IMO, its a stage of perception we are collectively going through that is being modified. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h9MxNn8P7w It removed an essential 3rd principle . And as you say, developed a duality that took over human understanding , what seems to have been eliminated is 'soul' ; the triad body , spirit, soul . Spirit and soul got sorta squashed together and both became a ghost like double in polarity with body . Then they became 'mind' or anything 'non-corporeal ' ... essentially the 'ideal' , so now we have a duality or 'real' and 'ideal' (of the mind ) . If you haven't read it already, you might find this interesting ; Agreed . I am a 'multiple solution' type . That really annoys me ! You point out a minor issue and all of a sudden are 'in the enemy camp' !

A very advanced teacher for his times then !

But you would probably prefer ;

I have a holiday house out west you are welcome to stay in

Perhaps we could call it an outside force in that we inherit it genetically ... we have two ; one is like the 'Id' very self centred and ego driven as an individual survivor - takes what it wants and acts regardless. A very old programme in the 'hind brain' , virtually 'reptilian' . The other, has to do with being primates and evolving to live in social extended family groups ; behaviour is modified 'descent' and considerate of others and the group process , the 'Superego' which modifies the 'base instincts' has developed as this helps us to live together and that has proved to be beneficial to the species. So it is internal, as we have it , but it is also a 'spirit' or force or 'information' that we inherited .