Nungali

Egypt itself did not become western . Hermetics did , which has a component of Egyptian knowledge . But even that is tricky; It started to form after the abandonment of Alexandria as a knowledge center , it moved to Haran in Syria . By then it was a mix of Egyptian, Greek, Magi, Jewish and anything considered 'knowledgeable' back then . Then it got picked up by the Islamic civilization , that got a further influence from Greek philosophy while coming into the 'west ' . There it sorta went 'underground' creating the 'esoteric' (hidden or occluded - 'occult' ) style of knowledge . In the east , similar knowledge was exoteric - 'out there ' ... on the street , so to speak . part of the reason of it being forced underground in the west was it's preoccupation with the 'Christian view ' and regulation of society and the development of modern science . Thats part of the reason for secrecy , some old societies explored early science and taught 'heretical' ideas , first against the church and later against the state . Other reasons are as stated above by other posters . There are many other reasons . But why say you have secrets in the first place ? Well, you know what people are like ....

Yes, one assumes the nature of the thread title would eventually lead to an answer from the thread creator ? But no , you have to wait .... Unless he just meant " I KNOW why " , which actually doesnt say he is going to TELL you why Or maybe he will ... why has it not been revealed so far ? One would think if the reason is 1) the thread title might have been a question rather than a declaration that one has the answer ? If 2 ) ... expect this 'process' to involve the type of dynamics already unfolding in this thread and what came up in his other threads eg plus - a bit of embarrassment from past posting, a return and an attempted 'patching up ' to continue on likewise ( ? we shall see about that one , I suppose ) If 3) then you have to wait and wait .... meanwhile the OP will avoid the issue saying he made another thread ( where you might get the answer .... or you might not ) ,

Apology ? Nah, I dont need them . It wasnt about the argument ... people argue all the time , but my dear chap , there ARE 'rules of engagement ... and I dont mean all that BS 'nice and polite stuff' ... without understanding the rules of engagement in argument or debate , one often does not realise they are plain wrong or even understand what the issue was ... and then keep arguing , not addressing the valid point of what the argument WAS about .... sort of 'cheat and fudge ' and then proclaim how 'squeaky clean ' their method is , thats rather urksome , . That is what it was about and this is about the 4th time I am explaining it to you . " Sorry about arguing " ... .

To explore the esoteric . The beginnings are lost in time .... pre-history. In such cases I feel myself fortunate in that I live in a country where an ancient culture is still very much alive, survivng from a fuller form that existed up to very recent history . So in these cases I reference that , as an 'example' . However some people dispute this is valid ; t eg. o study a current stone age culture does not give us relevent ideas about past stone age cultures . I would then see the beginnings in things like 'inner clans ' ( sub-divisions beyond the usual moieties) that are based on restricted or highly specialized knowledge and ' kadaicha inheritance .

and while we are it ......

What do you think are the differences between spirit and soul ?

Why is Buddha laughing ? Must be due to all the suffering and pain in the world .

Tantra (n.) , from Sanskrit tantram, literally "loom, warp," hence, figuratively, "groundwork, system, doctrine," as some say; 'text' .

" that humans have an influence on things the way no other animal has , and does things no other animal does " IE the fact that humans are very different from other animals . I often explore the reason for this difference and how and why we have these different abilities , is an essential question of anthropology and , well, life itself .... its gotta be one of those central questions . isnt it ? Or are people going around not noticing ?

You are going to have to give me a context that this question is framed by .... more than an empty quote box .

The Zoroastrian 'spiritual components ' seem to be mainly four divisions and again, 'success' depends on some type of combination - or perhaps 'feedback' . Spirit is termed 'the spirit' and in Avestan is the term Mainyu - however there seems a good case that means 'quality of mind ' - good or bad ( spenta or angra ) ; " In the Gathas, which are the oldest texts of Zoroastrianism and are attributed to the prophet himself, angra mainyu is not yet a proper name.[2] In the one instance in these hymns where the two words appear together, the concept spoken of is that of a mainyu ("mind", "spirit" or otherwise an abstract energy etc.)[3] that is angra ("destructive", "chaotic", "disorderly", "inhibitive", "malign" etc, of which a manifestation can be anger). In this single instance—in Yasna 45.2—the "more bounteous of the spirits twain" declares angra mainyu to be its "absolute antithesis".[1] " 0. Hence it seems more of a definition of 'one's essential nature , or type of self .... as in ' in the spirit of ' , as opposed to some type of ghost or apparition or astral double . In this case the whole system can turn from one about good 'angels' and bad 'devils' ( and the origin of 'The Devil' , himself ) into an advanced 'mind science' - the cultivation of a good healthy and positive mind - that leads to good thought, words and deeds, with the subsequent teachings outlining everyday and social practices and prohibitions to cultivate a good quality of mind . Mainyu is also the opposite of 'material existence ' - 'Gaetha' , in a way this represents the polarity of Ideal / Real . The tyope of spirit we cultivate determines our attitudes and outlooks. A brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit that seeks wisdom is spenta mainyu and a gloomy, negative, destructive, and harmful spirit that wishes to remain ignorant is angra mainyu. This also carries over to effect the nature of our character and the nature of our soul . Depending on the spirit we choose, we become cheerful or angry, constructive or destructive, helpful or harmful, honest or dishonest, loyal or unfaithful, healthy or unhealthy, serene or agitated, peaceful or conflicted, holistic or imbalanced. The Soul . All living creatures have a soul ( Urvan ) in Zoroastrianism . The type of soul depends on the type of cultivation of one's spirit . Dualism is all through Zoroastrianism , and seems a reflection of the minds propensity to go in either direction , so too the soul has a fate which may go in either direction . Soul 'character' is built on the type of spirit that has been cultivated and is within a persons control through their free will . This implies choice and also accountability , in this life and the afterlife . " The soul creates its heaven or hell, both of which are a state of spiritual existence and not places." All souls came from God and eventually will be 're-set' .... 'cleansed' and will return - Zoroastrians believe in an eshaton ( and probably invented the concept which got adopted by some other following religions ) . Another important concept is the Fravashi , this resides in the non- living creation as well as the living . It seems to suggest the creative principle , the 'divine spark' and gives all of creation the 'fundamental forces' and laws which rule and regulate both material and spiritual existences . The fraveshi is like the universal soul and the urvan the personal soul , Frevishi is like a type of 'anama mundi' . Another important component is the Khvarenah . It is our 'true will' our 'higher calling' the reason we incarnated and things we want to do and achieve for this level of spiritual evolution via material incarnation . Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential or one's higher calling [sometimes thought of as one's latent destiny in life. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions. The forth concept is in the United Fraveshi . A person's urvan (soul), mainyu (spirit), fravashi and khvarenah can unite and this creates an 'abiding spirit' , to continue on in the afterlife . After the afterlife initial process a united fraveshi can become a 'guardian angel ' - offering assistance to the living . Another term for this is the Farohar or Fravahar and its image is the symbol of Zoroastrianism 1. When one dies, the soul being immortal comes to the 'Chinvat Bridge ' and meets the 'personification' of one's soul ; its beauty and reception (or not ) depends on the life one led . So does the construction of the bridge 2. Making a good or difficult transition . The good is a wide and comfortable crossing accompanied by one's 'Daena' 3. The 'not so good ' dont make the crossing , its narrow and difficult and one , if bad enough, may 'fall' into a realm where the soul needs adjusting and cleansing . 0. https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/33053 1. Prof. Mary Boyce in her article on the Fravashi, J. H. Moulton - in his Early Zoroastrianism (1913) at p. 260 - "rejecting the then prevailing Western interpretation of the Achaemenid winged symbol as that of Ahura Mazda, identified it as the king's fravashi, and it is still generally regarded as a fravashi symbol by Zoroastrians. Strong arguments, however, have by now been put forward by Western scholars for its representing khvarenah. 2. The etymology of 'chinvat' (Avestan), chinvar (Pahlavi), is that the name is derived from a combination of the Avestan chinaeta or Pahlavi chitan, meaning to arrange or lay as in bricklaying and the verbal root vid meaning knowledge or recognition. The conclusion is that the chinvat bridge is constructed over a lifetime of attaining wisdom and goodness. 3. Three glorious dawns have risen and gone by Since the last breath did from my body fly. With the waking loveliness of the fourth day A southern breeze whispered as it came my way. Laden with fragrance as from a divine bouquet With the sweetest of flowers in its spray. Floating on those enamoured winds there came A maiden more exquisite as I have ever seen. Her face was radiant, her form divine She stood before me casting a loving smile. Amazed, my voice a question formed "Pray, tell me who you are - an angel from heaven's door?" In a silken voice her answer came "I am your Daena and with your beliefs I am made. With your every thought well thought and words well spoken With every deed well done, my form was thus woven. "Yes, it is you who made my form As a sculptor shapes his clay. "Then glorified by conquest over base desire By every prayer before the holy fire By every kindness to those in need You gave me the beauty that you see. "Now I shall be your companion and your guide Across the bridge that spans the great divide. - by K. E. Eduljee

I'd rather have a Henderson ...... meep meep ! although they did make a six back in 1930s ;

I dont think you will find a forum like that ..... not sure though ' Non ejac forum. org ' ( the org is short for orgasm, of course ) I will say this here though .... many posts in the past here seem to postulate an ejaculation that happens and is somehow forced not to happen . Dont do that ! You will be much better off to cultivate an orgasm that doesnt involve ejaculation in the first place .... instead of invoking it and then suppressing it . Good luck ... most guys seem to think ; org = ejac To suggest otherwise in general company I got a from the men and from the woman ....

Yes, good . " He has 'soul' " . It has another meaning than some type of astral double 'spirit' . ( I chose that one as it relates to a person , your other example of art is classic 'anthropomorphize ' - to give an object a quality it has evoked in you . What I am interested in is that quality of 'soul' that (supposedly ) defines us as different from all the other animals . Now, I can believe animals have a 'soul' under some definitions, but it is VERY OBVIOUS ( I have had arguments against this presented to me , but they are pretty useless and contradict the obvious ) that humans do things no other animal does ( I put emphasis on 'do' as we can observe the facts , instead of the postulations and assumptions behind a lot of these differences , ie. other animals do not build ocean liners or satellites , etc .- its an 'anthropological concept of 'soul ' ' ) . Thats for later . For now I would like to continue collating . Where do we start ? I cant think of an earlier system than the Ancient Egyptian . ( I will go through mostly the western concepts , I am not big on eastern philosophy and I hope some posters that are will continue to contribute those concepts ) . I am going to refer to them as ' levels of soul ' - which seems accurate in some traditions but not others , some, it seems, would better be described as 'parts of self' with 'soul' or similar concepts being one part of the set . Egyptian concepts - They vary ( some 5, some 7 ) but I will focus on the 9 level concept . The lowest form seems to be the Khaat - the physical body . It is this aspect that links the earthly life with the higher aspects . The Egyptians seemed to think that by preserving this, after death , a link could remain with the earth . Offerings where given to it in the tomb - a very common artistic tomb motif . Perhaps due to its nature to decay when the life force is withdrawn , its hieroglyphic symbol is a fish , something that quickly indicates when its like force is withdrawn 0. . The Ren was one's name , not just your ordinary everyday name but a name that signified your 'spiritual' identity . As long as the name exists , the spirit does . We may liken this to the 'memory of someone ' . The Shuyet was translated as 'shadow' or 'soul shadow' .Its function was not clear and seems to relate to protection and in the after life 'guidance' ; our inseparable negative double . " The shadow frequently appears in funerary contexts, often positioned alongside the body, perhaps to facilitate greater ease and swiftness of movement. Although it did not ascend to heaven, it remained attached to the earth and the earthly realm. Despite this belief, the shadow could briefly accompany the Ba upon its departure from the tomb." 1. The next triad seems to consist of some of the more well known concepts ' The Ka - a sort of 'astral double' , what most might think of as a 'ghost' and that similar concept we find some attribute to 'soul ' . But as a 'ghost like double' it might relate to what some understand as 'a spirit' . It was a 'continual form of identity ' , across incarnations . It was imbued with a spark of the divine . 2. Everything alive had a ka - the 'spark of life ' . We might say it is the form that our present bodies are based on and generated from but it does not have an earthly origin . The Ba is often translated as 'soul' - it seems to link the spiritual and material worlds ; the afterlife and the corpse . " Each ba was linked to a particular body, and the ba would hover over the corpse after death but could also travel to the afterlife, visit with the gods, or return to earth to those places the person had loved in life. " 3. The corpse had to reunite with the ka each night in order for the ka to receive sustenance, and it was the job of the ba to accomplish this. 4. The Ab was the 'heart', but not as we know it ( the physical heart was 'hat' ) . The residing place of our propensity to do good or evil in ourselves . It is that which is weighed in the balance against the feather of Ma'at in the afterlife . I attribute these three to the next triad ; The Akh seems to be a combination of the above two . It has been described as a 'magical union' between the two . This concept survived in a few esoteric / hermetic traditions , in that one must unite some aspects of self in order to have an aspect that survives death and continues on . It is often translated as 'spirit' and an higher aspect of 'soul' . It is the Akh that lives for eternity , if formulated right, and 'lives amongst the stars and Gods ' . 5. It reminds me of that great quote ; " I am not simply a human being , I am a human becoming . " ( Kabbalist Samuel Avital ) The Sahu and Sechem seem aspects of the Akh : Sahu, an aspect of the Akh that can appear in dreams or as a ghost and the Sechem was a power to control one's surrounds and outcomes ; type of magical power that originates in Akh ( which comes from the above combining of Ka and Ba ). - I am hoping Apech or anyone with similar knowledge will add to this or correct me here . Later , will move forward in time and look at the Zoroastrian and Judaic concepts and then examine some Hermetic ones that came from a combination and reduction of these . Then I will look at how that got condensed down into three main aspects in 'western consciousness' . And then how we lost one to remain stuck in the current ideology of the duality of ' real and ideal ' ( that is there are only two classes of reality ; the 'real ' - the concrete material and the 'ideal ' - emotions, feelings , forces of physics , etc . - ie. immaterial things that we can observe have a material influence, hence we give them a 'reality value '. ) 0. See; 'Fish Stink' , a humorous addition to Normandy Ellis' transliteration of the Book of the Dead . 1. https://historicaleve.com/shuyet-ancient-egyptian-shadow/ 2. We find this in a few religions ; the concept that our internal 'spiritual fire ' / essence of life is a sliver, flicker, flame or reflection of the greater creative force / personality / God/s fire or light . 3. https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1023/the-soul-in-ancient-egypt/ I find this concept interesting in that I had an interesting experience with a 'ghost ' - an elderly lady that still remained (or part of her remained ? ) in a nice spot that she liked during her life . What makes this interesting is two things; one, it was confirmed by description by someone else who had the same experience with her , without knowing what I experienced . And the 'conversation' I had with old lady seems to affirm that it was a place the person loved in life and could return to it . 4. https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1023/the-soul-in-ancient-egypt/ 5. Ba - 'flying ' between the worlds , Ka - sign of adoration or worship, to receive the spark of the divine , Akh - a bird with shining plumage 'the transformed ascending soul' .

Jung added a 4th aspect to the self ( 'religious instinct ' ) to Freud's 3 . Norse has 4 . Kabbalah has 4. Egyptian has 4 major ones . In a later post I will do some collating and show some of these concepts side by side from various cultures and regions , for comparisons . .

But it isnt about one being valid over another ... that not the aim here . Some people garner knowledge by becoming familiar with various views on a subject . personally I find some validity eventually if , when studying something and getting those different opinions , I find that across time location and culture a constant theme or information occurs ... it may have validity to us and our processes , overall . My 'drive' here is overall , mercurial . I have noted that yours , on a few occasions , seem pretty different . .

A hodge podge mix of all different things , some material some imaginary and some ..... ? I know that doesnt help much .

I dont see how something like that could have happened that didnt change the world wide mind . Some theorize that post WWII people thought ' So this is where science has led us ? ' That and the follow on 'consciousness revolution' of the 1960's and the new technology ( TV ; brought the horrors of the 'new war ' - Vietnam - right into the family lounge room ) led to the rejection of 'rational science' and stimulated some to seek an alternative to it .

GF ... she's funny ! Cold night , she is lying on 'floor lounge' in front of fire place , with her bum towards it . I know how hot that can get , and build up quick . But she is just lying there , while I am cooking, so I decide to see how hot her ass is with my laser temperature gun I use for cooking . " Wow ! 47 degrees ! What a hot ass ! " " Dont point that at me ! Its a laser ! " " Whats wrong ?" " A laser can burn you ! " " Not as much as having your bum so close to the fire can ." " They can ... they are dangerous ! " " Nah, this is really weak , as long as it doesnt go in your eye ... look ." I shine it on my palm , up my arm , " Nothing ! Cant feel a thing " Her; " Well, what about during covid , when you went to enter somewhere and some arse with one of those guns would stop you and zap you in the forehead with it . I would say ' Dont do that to me , its a personal invasion! ' . Didnt you feel like that ? " " Well, yes . But thats a totally different complaint , did you feel me measuring your bum temperature is an invasion of your person space OR do you think it will harm your skin ? " Her ; " Yes ! " then a moment later ...... " Owwww ! My jeans are hot on my bum ! " - I should have checked it then , to get the 'oww my arse is on fire' temperature level . - The other amusing thing by fire was 'Stewie' .... Stewie is a 'bit of a case ' , he is sitting there looking at the fire and the metal burner and holding his palm out to feel the radiant heat from the metal ... and I just know what he is gonna do .... ( he is over 30, by the way ) His hand gets closer and closer , he stops, thinks , tries, stops and then places his palm on the metal .... then jumps ! "Owwww ! Shit ! That thing is hot ! " Me ; " Yes Stewie , fire .... hot ...... burnie ! "

It must be ! No woman can get changed that fast !

This is what I am asking, what is your definition , and how or why do you have that definition . My take on 'soul' seems more psychological , I may get to that later . Also I like to see 'spirit' as your true essence ; in the 'spirit' of a thing - its essential nature . Yes, some see spirit and soul as similar or same . I am assuming some of our bums researched and looked into the history of the development of the concept ... after they turned 8 as well . My idea on some aspects being eternal is the mix up between some older concepts where soul and spirit are not enough ; in Kabalah there are 4 'souls' or 4 levels , Egypt had a lot more . The modern western concepts seem pretty bare and scant compared to this

Hard to say ... do you mean 'the way I am living' at this moment, with this moment being extended to infinity, over and over again , or some time span within my life , cyclically repeating, or all of my life being repeated over and over again or some moment in my life being lived over and over ? (and if its the last bit , can I have that period just after my inheritance and with Helga Horbenson ? )