Nungali

I meant to say that some of the techniques of Japanese karate can work quiet well in some circumstances ... if they are applied rightly ( not like they are taught in karate classes ) they can be effective and require a high skill level ... like their expert swordwork, MUCH is reliant on 'tai-sabaki' .... changes in movement while maintaining the right place / position ( watch a good sword fight movie that is well choreographed - there isnt so much slash and chop, its graceful; and about placement and evasion. ) This movie has some good demos of what I mean ( you must fight him - using only blocks ... and the lunge punch into the throat as the sword is drawn .. a great defense . against a reverse roundhouse kick (another crazy, turn-your-back-on-them move ... @ 3:50 below ) and a crazy end fight ( the idea was , from the director, they just go for it until the' actors' collapse from exhaustion ... they start off pristine and neat in perfect form with crisp white uniforms and end up slugging it out in the mud totally exhausted ... the producer wanted to show the contrast with 'form' and reality . also T'the making of ' doco on it is good. There seemed to be some real life rivalry between the main good and bad guys in the film .... some of the fighting may have got a bit too real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

Cant remember the guys name but an early Okinawan Karateka (1st generation - ie, contemporary to Bushi Matsamura , the time when the Okinawan King was deposed - thats when it started to spread out to others and for other reasons ) but the story was he was in Japan during Funakoshi's introduction and first demos and he publicly skoffed at his form and challenged him to demonstrate the applications of the moves he was doing. he didnt - or couldnt. Besides he first 'got in' ( got to teach 'karate' in Japan ) as a primary school physical education course . So it had to be severely adapted. anyway . Then, those crazy Japs did what they do ( for example during one of my forst classes they had put an ancient picture of him on the wall ( as Sesai Frank Nowak was soon to arrive from japan, the first non Japanese JKA 3rd Dan, to take over teaching in Australia .... one of us goes "Who's the old dude ? " They nearly had a heart attack ! Thus began my indoctrination into the strange world of Japanese karate a la JKA . Officially there are 3 'types' of karate ' ; kihon, kata, kumite. : basics , patterns and forms and 'sports sparring' ( Nowak insisted karate was a sport. ) . One 'new hero' ( Shotokan's ' great white hope' .... the ' new Kanazawa ! ) put a book out. he proudly stated that he taught all three types of karate ! - Can you imagine a teacher that only taught kihon , going upo and down the hall doing downward blocks and punches ..... keep that thumb joint at a 90 degree angle ... and stop lifting your back heel off the ground and .... and nothing else ! Arrrgggghhhh ( runs out of dojo screaming ) But they dont have bunkai . I remember once, in a Shotokan only comp, one of the guys from our club actually managed to do a move from a kata in sparring, and it worked and he got a point .... and it nearly bought the house down. However , (as I think you know ) there IS some value in what it was before the degradation - in where it came from, the old Okinawan 'temple style' .... lay you life on the line . Not a good plan for a self defense art. But then it got even further away from what I was taught, St least with the crazy stuff I was taught, I can make some sense of what of may have been ( now that I have learnt a lot more ). But over time, they have taken the crazy bits off to make it more 'reasonable', thus removing any hope of finding one's way back. For example, this was how I was taught to do R 'upper block' ; Stand in ready position, extend left arm ( pretty much like a Nazi salute) and place right fist on r hip, as you draw L arm back 'punch' forward with the R and twist roll it up to the upward block finishing position and pull the left hand ( and going from open, to a fist ) into your L hip . The right rising block is supposed to follow the line of the L retracting hand and pass each other, I was told to use that L extended hand to 'sight' the block, to give me a line to follow . WTF ! .... 'site the block ' I showed this to a local Shotokaner who trains with us ... he has never seen that before, they removed the extend the left hand bit. But still use the vigorous force and solid blow delivery of the upward block, I asked him why they did that and he didnt know. he explained how all this force was used to knock the attacking punch out of the way. So I got him to stand there in his strongest stance and extend his fist and hold it still, I pushed it aside. "Be stronger ! " he shuffled and settled down more, I pushed it aside with one finger . He got a bit frustrated. "Now punch ! " he did and I slapped it aside ... he kept doing these ferocious punches ( that were slow and lumbering, due to doing them 'correctly' ) I easily slapped them aside, then asked him, " If I cxan move your punck aside with one finger or slap it aside as it comes in, why do I need such a rad solid strong stance and so much force to do such a slow and risky to me blocking technique. He didnt know . A while later at a home training session I ran this past the guys; the L extended hand is actually the block, ( with shuto to their wrist ) and the closing foist as it is withdrawn to the hip is a grab and pull, the upper block is a driving in elbow to the underarm ( yeah ... I hadn;t quiet worked it out at that stage ) .... one of them skoffed at it, so we tried it slowly and softly , he said " This is BS, I reckon I can come in quick with a quick R / L and R side of your head is totally open. I go, I dont think so ... and he charges me Oh man ! What actually happened was my forearm hit under his arm pit and my elbow got him straight in the mouth ( because as he tried to punch around with his L to get me, his head moved over towards my elbow as I came in. Also I was moving forward so there was a big clash of forces (and I aint light! ) I didnt pull the grab back towards my hip as , by now he was crashing backwards so I used it to stop him falling ... he would have landed back first across my front knee if I had pulled him all the way in as he went down. No one has wanted to practice it since . So, as these ';arts' get pared back to make more sense, a lot more is being lost. I find it an interesting phenomena ( now that I understand it ) - how the Japanese 'style' ( mindset and mentality ) has effected all of this { How dare you even ask a question ! Just copy teacher .... and that would not even be said - you would be expected to know that. And a whole not of other considerations ... especially https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae Peter Goldsworthy ( a multi-disciplined scholar in these areas ) has written some excellent papers on this subject ( the Japanese way and how it has effected teaching and transmission ), they are on Aikiweb and well worth reading !

if the movements are done correctly ,,,, at the end of the stick, an incredible amount of force can be delivered. Powdered bone ? Now that's a 'bruise' !.

No, that wasn't the Abyss ... and stop smoking joints in the bath .

Where did you encounter this 'official JKA doctrine' ?

Mention has been made of 'brass knuckles' (tekko) . An empty handed version is 'at hand' with ' tekko fist'. The fist is held tightly with the thumb to the side and its tip pressing into the outside of the middle joint of the index finger. The two middle knuckles of the index and big finger are used in a whipping or cracking motion. Its one interpretation of some of the movements in Naihanchi forms. It can be good against someone that wants to close in with L / R ( or opposite ) combo ; he leads with R , you evade slightly forward and duck to your right while whipping your right across to strike with those knuckles on his R LU9. At the same time other hand comes across and under L arm to guard the R torso ( crossed arm ..... crane style ) . If its quick enough the next attack, from the opponent's left will be coming at your now exposed ( and leaning that way from the previous duck ) head. So you shift weight to the left, duck head to your left and whip your right back, now as a glancing backfist strike at his left 'funny bone' from underneath. ( and hands u cross { 'wings open' } so your right has moved to your left to continue the control of his right hand. At this stage I had two dead, painful and tingling arms that were half hanging, half twitching in spasms ( my 'Joe Cocker' stance ) , The next bit is you shuffle in and deliver downward striking 'tekko-ken' with those knuckles just below the eye and rake down. yeah ... its not a technique taught in class ( supposed to be 'secret' ) . It was one of Mr Nishihira's - nasty, rip half your face off . He would, in teaching it, feint at the face, place the knuckles on the chest, press in and run them down and then twist them. The other goes flying back - thats the nice way of doing it. One guy said he had an exclamation point shaped bruise down his chest for about a week from it. We just stop at or near the head. If its done right the other is already disabled from the 'stings' ( we use slaps in training ... most of the time ) . And the shuffled in foot placements totally disrupt the others stance ( I have never been good at that bit ) . The great advantage is, if some idiot is swinging punches at you, you can keep back, out of range and 'tap' at the offending 'article' without having to smash someone. A couple of times they have stopped at the first one and backed off shaking and rubbing their hand and 'doing a little dance ' . " Oh ... I am sorry ... <bows> that hand attacked me - so I attacked it back . " { Actually that reminds me ; there was a friendly once between a martial arts fight choreographer and a well known boxer on off time on a film I was working on ... a few people were interested to see how the boxer dealt with all the kicks and different strikes ... he dodged back and punched them . )

Actually he could have remedied the first demonstrated mistake by changing the footwork placement and he would have been more behind and further away from his opponent. And yep, there are several (more) ways to remedy that mistake

Although I agree, how can I resist posting this ( from the 'Master' - Dan Inosanto . I have one of his early books , he says he was asked to remove the knife fighting sections before publication - which he did ... but he makes the comment that, with right considerations, one can observe the techniques with the other weapons and apply that to knife. ) Anyway .. Gun Vs, knife ? ( Police training film ) ; .

Whoa ! A guy told me a story about nearly losing his dog like this it chased the roo through the bush and it immediatly went into a creek, the dog went after it ... he said he had to go in with a lump of wood and crack it over the head to save the dog ... I thought .... hmm, seems logical but ..... then I just saw this ;

Here is a funny one, this same guy's dojo has a wall with all the weapons he teaches on display. I noticed a fake gun. "You dont teach unarmed defense against a hand gun do you ? " Him; "Sure ..... grab the gun and I will show you " "Okay then . " < take up gun move away from him, turn and point it at him from a few meters away > "hand over your wallet or I will shoot you " I didnt give him a chance to show me how he wanted me to use the gun (up close probably ) .... so he takes out the wallet and drops it on the ground . "Uh arrr , smart arse, kick it over here. " He does and I pick it up . he goes, " Ha ! Its just a cheap going out wallet with about $20 in it . " " Oh !? Smart arse eh ? " ..... points gun " Bang ! " " Thats for being a smart arse ! " (He was doing fine until he opened his mouth )

Actually, the other guy, one of those professionals who was making a living out of it ( hence all sorts of monkey business going on ) , school, fees, trophies (so many it seemed neurotic ! ) , constant competitions , and a lot of 'dans' attached to his black belt , used to get me around there to show him stuff ( me without any belt ) ... I had to come at a quiet time, park unseen around the back and he would slip me $$$ to show him weapon forms and techniques. he probably charges a fortune now to teach them. When I see him he is pretty friendly, unless he is with others, then he seems a but furtive and nervous ( probably thinks I am gonna blab something ) .

yes, that is true and boring and typical .... demos ! But then again, sometimes with my instructor, he will tap me and I will let go, or I will attack him with diminished power and speed ..... a few times when I have done the opposite, I didnt come off too good . he will demo a technique for people and also go soft on me - understandable .... but jeeze guys ... when you doing a demo ! or making a film .... pull ya sox up ! { Once I went with him to exchange stuff with an instructor from another style ... they used me as the dummy to show each other stuff, and their was a bit of rivalry between them ; 'We do that this way; wack, smash throw ( on Nungali ) ... no no, its better to it this way ... flip, twist, smash (on Nungali ) ... man was I black and blue for few days !

here is a great practice weapon ; Inner core of bamboo, it has enough strength and flexibility to be used fairly realistically ( foamies are soft and wobble) , but it can split ans=d splinter and that can be very dangerous, so I insert this inside a length of plastic electrical conduit, that is then inside hollow foam tubing they use to insulate hot water pipes ... without the bamboo inside it is too flexible. Also you do not need armor on - too slow and bulky ... its fairly safe ( make the ends extra safe and padded for thrusting technique} but you do know when you have been hit and you can go pretty full on with them .... whallop ! have fun

We occasionally got away with a bit of realism in training (instructors dont like it much ) , an Aikido teacher suggested the technique in post #23 but the attacker had a 2nd knife in the other hand and was instructed to try and actually get the other person. Interesting . I got 'killed' . But only as I had to defend using aikido, if i had broken the lead arm at the beginning of apply Koto gaeshi I doubt he would have continued the way he did . A lot of people do that technique wrong, often, when it was done on me they tried it in the wrong position, as I back rolled I just re positioned my leg to kick them in the head as I rolled out. They would bend down as they applied backwards and downwards pressure - also lowering the head for me ..... so I didnt have to extend my kick much .... I mean, my foot is right there .... your head is right there ... what am I supposed to do (its like waving a steak in front of a dog ) Curiously, some found it offensive and said not to do it, or 'that was not a correct roll', others said 'what was that? Where did that come from ? ' and wanted to know what they were doing wrong, ( aside from not being that close in the first place, if you are; the inside arm should extend out from the body in a curved shape { like it is in an Aikido forward roll } beyond a line from their foot to your head the elbow a little further out, any kick will glance off the arm or collect the point of the elbow ) or others would never have put themselves in that position in the first place.

Magic potatoes .... thats whatchya need - I swear by 'em !

........... @ 1.00

I always wondered what 'properly' was in this context ??? Sure, most people may not , after meeting 'most people' I would not be surprised if they cut themselves buttering bread, But what is properly ? I have seen some old Philippino dudes doing awesome knife drills * ... I wouldnt doubt they can apply in a real situation. I learnt the 'proper way' to use one - according to the etiquette of Japan ... Current instructor (not Japanese ) is more realistic, he agrees with me, a knife in a fight - someone's gonna get cut . Nearly all 'demos' are a drill so .... I had a mate that did army training and a bit of Special Services training ( that he failed - he didnt get in - thats an amusing story ) and we were mucking around one day and he said they were trained to use a knife properly and defend against one. he could tell at a glance if someone knew how to use a knife ' properly ' or not. I said okay, and shaped up to him (with a rubbery one ) and he immediately pointed out how I was doing it wrong ... so I continued doing it wrong and waving it at him and as he went to try one of his techniques as I feigned in ..... .... I kicked him in the nuts instead , did a little flippy foot sweep, closed in as he stumbled backwards, grabbed a flailing arm as he stumbled backwards and got two stabs in as went down ..... he didnt expect that .... he had been trained what to expect from watching the way I handled the knife ( but I intended to nut him from the beginning ) . .... then ... " Okay, what was wrong with that then ? " He admitted I caught him by surprise. Drills are excellent for training but you have to go beyond that ..... try some free form practice with a red marker pen, move around and be innovative. Some knife fights I have watched ( on film ) can be quiet weird ( in 'technique' ) ... especially one on one with gang members, some , one assumes, would have some experience ( I mean knife fights not a 'knife attack' ) - here, 'properly' means 'dont get cut' even if it means wrapping your jacket around a lead defense arm and jumping in with an overhand axe blow and jumping back ... both doing the same over and over again ... until there is blood. . Many years back as a teen I had a new friend that came from the Philippines .... n o MA background , but a bit of wrestling, one day he wanted to knife fight me ( a friendly ) his techniques was like a crab;, legs wide, very low down center of gravity hips back and shoulders forward - crouched, with the body and organs protected I suppose and the knife held out in front. I did a Dave Brown workshop where he did some knife stuff .... meh ! I was tempted to 'show him; things dont always go as he was saying. Its dangerous to teach people knife disarms ! They work great in drills. But in a drill or a demo .... it all depends who 'attacks first' doesnt it ? Still, it ceratinly doesnt hurt to know the techniques, in case an opportunity to use them arises. here is the opposite .... knife beats stick ( yeah, drills , but .... )

Well, one stick is better than none ... and you got some armour .

I would say - partake and enjoy without attachment .

teacher said there were 3 levels of applying the technique in MSSR , rising in ' nastiness' when your 'mates' try to best or bully you in a self defense situation when your family and home is threatened or invaded. regarding 'two sticks' ( as in what Matsamura settled on and in kali ) Vs knife sticks I think

Hmmm ... I have been dealing with one lately ; This world is a prison ... I dont belong here ... my true home is ( now it gets interesting ) - heaven .... I want to leave here and go there and be with God and live a better life where everything will be wonderful ... etc. Except in this case, it was tied in with Buddhism and the need to let go of desire (for this world ) and not 'come back' - all mixed up with a Christian after life. I 'liked' their (Gnostics) take on sex; it is bad because it creates more life and life is sorrow ... right then , no more sex ... or children .... or new gnostic cult members ..... well, hang on a minute there .... you can have sex, but only to make more gnostic cult members . ..... we need them to spread our message. Thus is born ' theology '

Crikey !

yes .... < huffs breath on nails, buffs them on shirt > .... yes I am . The general audience got that ! ? Not sure about that .... more than once I was told that some long running stories ( true or not) from the history of those Okinawan teachers were BS as they 'got it from Karate Kid' ... some people actually think the movie was the source ... I know this seems crazy, but I am talking about the 'general movie audience. But yes, they may have at least got the 'Okinawan thing'. <cringe> I must have stopped watching by that bit. I guess ... I been away from JKA for so long ... the alternative now seems natural .... I guess ( at least back then ) it was still an unknown ... and in some places, still is today. [ I read a great story from an American guy who went to Japan to study Ninjitsu. From his descriptions it sounded more like an Okinawan style .... my fav bit was when he arrived and they asked him to show them what he knew, so he did his most 'advanced' kata for them. Then one of them said " I remember that ! " and jumped up and did the kata in an exaggerated manner, very stiff and robot like and making silly ki-i noises each move while the others laughed. Dude wrote that he never could understand that part of their interaction with him

yes, I think he has a lot of bad press lately ... time to change that ... come on folks ... give me an 'S ' ..... ' A ' ....

If a certain young circle walking lady was still here, she would be drawing this on those chockies before eating them