Nungali

Then I am sure you must be familiar with them then ... please excuse my ignorance ... I have never been to India ... actually I have never been to a place where " they all look the same, act the same etc. " . India is more homogenous than I thought ... apparently even more so than the small rural town I live in in Australia ... where everyone doesn't look the same (but similar ... I mean , they all have 1 head, some arms and legs, etc. ) ... they certainly all don't act the same though.

probably both ... but I guess ... as the system I learnt in I read described (by an 'outsider' ) as "They are masters of 'tai-sabaki' (or something like that) ... I looked it up and got a surprise ... basically it means to evade ... the opposite of being hard and solid and absorbing the force of a srtike with the body or a blocking technique. ... I always thought first principle was NOT to be where the strike is landing ??? Much of Okinawan martial arts that passed to Japan is 'temple style / ultimately sacrificial / defend the king' stuff and the rarer style (the one I did) is 'family tradition style (Seito) / protect your parents and your own life / self defence style. It is quiet different from the other style and contains lots of attacks to nerve centres, eyes, groin, throat, etc, combined with evade and strike (more of a stinging / whipping movement) to weaken/distract/break 'ki stream' for the application of lock/takedown/control and THEN deliver the 'killer blow'. (And incidentally it makes much more sense of some weird karate moves that seem nonsense and unexplained until one understand the variant 'Bunkai'. And I have never had to worry about an opponent with ' iron EYEballs' - once I brushed the eyes of a visiting instructor from another style ever so lightly with the back of my fingers ... not even a flick of my nails and he grabbed his face and turned and bent over presenting me with a wonderfully exposed right kidney ... most people I trained with like that (and it was in slo mo to demo a bunkai ) would turn the head or at least tightly close the eyes ... he though it was a little backhand girlslap to the face and he would grin and toughly absorb it. ) However ... whatever ... I wont go on about what I learnt as it seems the opposite of what you seek

'Vedic people' ? I am talking about their ancestors ... before there were Vedas , hence before there were Vedic people; the proto-Indo-Europeans who lived in the 'lost land of Soma' and came from a Homeland OUTSIDE of India ... that even some Indian scholars locate at the North Pole! And also a location that the Tibetans targeted as a source of their 'gnosis' (to the west) ... again, pre-Vedic and of course pre- Buddhist ... but I am repeating myself here ... its all in my previous post ... <sigh> but I suppose 'some types' will see what they want within it as opposed to reading what I actually wrote. I am well aware of theories that an Indian sub-continent people went through the Hindu Kush and into Pre- Aryana and helped the people located there become the PIE people and then moved back to India but by definition these people have to be pre-Vedic as Vedas were written much later , the same as the European components in their mixed culture were pre-Avestan as the Avestas were not comopsed either at that time. I am well aware there are two view as to where ONE OF THE MANY TYPES of Indians came from but I feel it is slanted away from the non Vedic origin view. ' Hands up here whoever knows what Avestas are and what role it plays in later religious development. Now ... same question re Vedas.

If one has K & C of H G A one is 'never alone' ... yet "Ye can have no companion".

Again ... a great disservice to the indigenous. Why not acknowledge them from what they have to offer and what THEY want to teach us instead of using their culture to support our own weird white view of what it means. Unfortunately , when communicating with 'dualists' one can only be heard in one of two ways ... even when one is NOT communicating in dualist mode that is how the dualist is going to hear it.

Well I was open minded about them and their approach until I saw their photos … and realised they were from Mullumbimby (okay that's maybe prejudiced but in light of what I write below – tell me my ‘pre judgement ‘ was wrong.) And now its time to start throwing my tomahawks: I went into their site and looked at their facts, research and evidence pages. Regarding their ‘evidence’ I am the first to admit the archaeology is intriguing and the DNA, in places, ‘curios’ in regard to current accepted theories but a lot of the evidence is in dispute. In any case, here is some of their other evidence below; >4,000 years: There are over 250 hieroglyphs found within a cave at the Hunter Valley (NSW), some of which, according to Roy Johnston, are from the earliest Egyptian dynasty. They detail the “stranding in this wretched place” of “Lord Djes-eb.” Unfortunately, “he was twice bitten by a snake,” and then interred in the cave. [Archaeological Diggings magazine had an article on these 'hieroglyphics' and interviewed a National Parks ranger about the site, he expressed annoyance at people still carving fake hieroglyphs into rocks, and that some of them have been caught in the act, recently some more appeared, he says it all started with one individual, who was caught, he was a recent patient in mental health institution. Anyway, it isn’t ‘Roy Johnstone’ its Ray Johnstone, I know because I have met him and been in his house, which had miniature ‘Egyptian scenarios’ set about with dolls in them dressed up as Egyptian Gods … apparently they come to life and walk around (one of his followers told me). He was (is ?) the head of the Brisbane Ra-Harakte movement, which had a few local indigenous members practising some form of Ray’s neo-Egyptology (Ray is an ‘expert’ in translating unusual types of hieroglyphics … unusual in that other experts say they make no sense ) . I observed ‘interesting dynamics’ going on with Ray. Regardless of this, the theory is that Australian’s spread out and populated the world, including Egypt. Somehow, ‘evidence’ of ancient Egyptians travelling to Australia is given to support their theory.] 5,000 to 2,000 years: The period of time during which a variety of Egyptian artefacts have been found in Australia. [That’s it ? No further reference to where or what they are ? ] >5,000 years: The controversial seven-stepped Gympie Pyramid. The site contains slag-the by-product of metallurgy, which is definitely non-Aboriginal, and a variety of anomalies. [ It is also known to have an ‘Inca wall’ around it. “Mrs Berry and her husband had a farm opposite “Pyramid Hill”, an area which had been terraced by earlier German settlers who had tried growing grapes for viniculture. Presumably it was this terracing that had inspired the stories of pyramids.” “Further, the minister at the church, the Rev Stan Geddes, has spoken out as having actually seen the wall built as part of a local council job creation project during the depression of the 1930s from material cut nearby at Rock’s Road quarry. At the same time a wall had been built around the nearby Catholic Church using the same stone but in a different style; this wall later fell down a few years ago. ] 36,000 years: Egypt. “Old Egyptian writings state that their civilization learnt to build pyramids from an ancient people who once came from a great south land in the east.” “According to the Turin Papyrus before Egypt’s first dynasty-preceding 3,000 years BCE- ‘The Followers of Horus ruled for 13,000 years and before them “the Gods” ruled for 20,000 years … their civilisation’s history dates back 36,000 years . [The Gods = Australian Aboriginals ???? Egyptian references ‘to the south’ relating to ‘origin’ usually refer to the source of the Nile and the annual floods. To be literal, India could be a candidate.] 40,000 years: Lake Vasiquillo (Mexico). According to Silvia Gonzales the footprints discovered in volcanic ash are Aboriginal. [Are they saying Australian Aboriginal or Mexican Aboriginal … I wonder how one tells the difference? “It is on this stratigraphic basis that the human footprints of the Toluquilla Footprint Layer are believed to provide evidence of early human occupation of the Americas, due to their potential age of more than 40,000 years ago.” http://www.fumdham.org.br/fumdhamentos7/artigos/14%20Silvia%20Gonzalez.pdf There is no mention of Australian Aboriginals in the paper (which is a rather good one) nor does the word Aboriginal appear. ] 188 years: “… records of the event were kept in a diary compiled by Captain Breamer … Sprung into the water and made towards the boat with surprising celerity, jumping at each step entirely out of the sea, although it was so deep as to reach their thighs.” [Australian Aboriginals used to have lots of contacts pre-European ones, especially with Trepang harvesters, who came here from Indonesia. Some Aboriginals may have travelled back with them and had other families there. Also I notice that disjointed pieces of 'evidence' ... extracts taken out of context ... well actually they aren't presented in ANY context ... they just hang in tha air as if WE are supposed to make conclusions for them ... as if we will know they have meaning or supply proof to the authors theory, there is no logical extension of argument that links these snippets of info to their theory ... they assume it does {? I suppose, otherwise why do they stack up these 'facts' } this is a common technique with other similar books ... ] 77 years: Professor Elkin’s account of an instance of first contact with traditional Aboriginals of the Kimberley region (WA) contains this entry …“when tribal elders greeted him Ancient secret Masonic hand signs. He was also struck by the startling semantic features present in the natives.” In what was even more puzzling, “many of the words spoken were of Egyptian origin.” [ Masonic now? This story originally went out as a Freemasonic Australian myth … to give validity to Freemasonry … I have never heard it used to attempt to give validity to Australian origins for everything – a novel usage. The original story relied on the ‘fact’ that the Aboriginals were making first contact with whites … later ‘proved’ not to be true, at least one other European had passed through the area before them (possibly a Freemason), in any case it all unnecessary as it is easily proved that Aboriginals utilised ‘ancient secret hand signs’ way before even King Solomon’s temple or Freemasonry. Aside from all of that, one would also have to re-create a scientific / literalist (as this is the world the authors are trying to prove things in) whole new theory of evolution or how humans came about in Australia as there is no chain of hominid evidence. He has done that, here it is; “In a ground-breaking Aug. 28, 2012 ExopoliticsTV interview with Alfred Lambremont Webre, author and Australian Aboriginal researcher Steve Strong reveals the existence of glyphs in Australia that affirm the Pleiadian Extraterrestrials as the originators of the Australian Aboriginal race. These glyphs, Steve Strong maintains, are also congruent with Aboriginal Elder traditional knowledge that affirms the Pleiadian extraterrestrials as the originators of homo sapiens in the form of Australian Aboriginals. http://golden-rule.org/tag/australia/ ] “Of one fact we are adamant: the conventional theories explaining the evolution of Homo sapiens, first emerging from Africa, are wrong on nine distinct counts. Equally, we are absolutely convinced that no less than 50,000 years ago Australian Aborigines set sail FROM, never to, Australia. They alone were responsible for introducing the concepts of religion, culture, art, democracy, music, boats, surgery, dance, astronomy, gender equality, and all the nobler pursuits and hallmarks of civilization to the rest of the world. Quite simply, they dragged all non-Aboriginal races out of the caves and into the light of the Dreaming. These truths are referenced in our Fact and fiction file …” [ A sample of which appears above ] “ …not only through Aboriginal facts, but those of many highly respected Indigenous Elders, scientists, archaeologists, historians and religious traditions. In concluding this overview we are strongly of the belief that the most convincing evidence we have is simple: every Elder who is versed in traditional lore is adamant they are in no way related to any peoples, whether African or any other race. There is no variation or disagreement in this respect, all we are doing is giving voice and science to an ancient truth.” [ A Bundjulung Elder told me that some groups of Aboriginals are related to some types of Indians and the Aboriginals can tell which.] “ Steven Strong is a secondary school teacher with a background in Archaeology and Education. He was involved in the formation of a Graduate Diploma of Aboriginal Education for the NSW Department of Education, writing units on Traditional Law and Contemporary History. He also co-authored the highly successful “Aboriginal Australia: A Language and Cultural kit”. [ OMG! I can only hope that; ‘was involved’ means what I think it does. I tried to check the “Aboriginal Australia: A Language and Cultural kit” out. Its existence seems tenuous beyond a primary School project ]

The article linked seems fairly comprehensive. I know little about it. I trained in Matsamura Seito Shorin- Ryu. In that tradition a lot of what you seek was hidden . I suppose if one trained in Okinawa and got 'in', it might be different The last great teacher of that line who died a few years back ; Koshi Nishihira would have been of the 'springy' type explained in that article. He used the term 'like a spring' a lot. Also he could heal training injuries with a hands on thing and when he did this his palms got very hot. Nowadays and with other styles it isn't so secret. But I would assume it has an origin in China as a lot of Okinawan stuff came from China. It was virtually a province of China and some times. A lot of the Okinawans went and trained at the ... Fukkien (is it ?) temple in China. There are also some interesting kata that are purported to come directly from Chinese individuals who came to Okinawa ; Kusanku , also the name of a visiting Chinese martial expert; an 'envoy' , Chinto, also the name of a pirate shipwrecked in Okinawa. But what you are asking about I think is encapsulated in Sanshin Kata .... not part of the style I did, so we did little of it.

Taoism, in essence, has not been infected. It understands the 3 views. I have come to the conclusion that these two guys Steven and Evan Strong are either reference / research fudging, lying, would be money makers with books to appease new age alternoconspiracist wackos ... or are insane.

so, whats the latest on under the Sphinx ... if I remember Zahwi was cranky and di not want to allow further exploration ... why the F not ??? Then, I guess the s hit the fan in Egypt and has been splattering ever since ?

Ah ... just saw this, thanks

And I heard that was rubbish ... they had a team of savant recorders with them searching for and respecting ancient knowledge. In any case I don't mean the 'blowing of (off) the nose, I mean shaping the lion (?) head down to an out of proportion pin head. And as I said before ; out of proportion ? ... in Old Kingdom ?????

Oh .... my ..... god .... ! How ..... shocking! The terrible man ... he sounds like a Tibetan 'A lie ster Crow ley'

People used to complain about me striking in Aikido and my 'violent' approach. So I bought my old Aikido book to training with a picture of Master Ueshiba evading a sword blow and jabbing fan ribs towards attackers eyes with an insane violent look on his face. [Aikido got 'marketed' very differently just after the end of WWII (funny that ).] It will help you although to get your 'weight' lined up good behind a technique and use body extension . To toughen the body to receive technique I'd suggest going a bit south-west to Okinawa. Its important to remember though, these techniques are mostly related to 'Temple Style' and both have 'sacrificial elements' - just make sure you wont become devoted to something else that you will need to use your body for later. [ I saw the Wu-shu hard head champion smash ,,, well, anything, then they put his head between blocks and hit them with a sledgie ... in slo mo you could see his head flex and spring back ... boooowoooup ! then I saw him interviewed. he said his training started as a small child , he had to continually wack his head into the wall. Then he got this sad look on his face ..... and I did too

Could be the metal in their constitution (big golden hearts - when you get to know them )

I would be happy to read papers on this view except I haven't found one written by a non-Indian ... ? And the one's I did read that were written by an Indian seemed .... agitated and adamant (just as I was about no Australoids being in India - above)

Anyway getting back to the topic (sort of ). I watched medieval battle dudes ... impressed ... asked the guy ... some of those moves you did looked like (insert what you will) did you train in that ? He snuffed at that "anything that works can look similar, we all have the same body, and movements follow the same laws. However ,,, a particular form of art may have passed to China from India and developed there ... I doubt it took over all Chinese arts extant at the time though.

I am stating the opposite (except the Nazi bit) dogmatically and I wont argue it either I never new the Vedic people found India totally unpopulated! (Gosh what happened to all the Australoids - whose genes can be traced back to small indigenous groups still in India today ... smacks of 'Terra Nullias' ... no, no one there - just some black fellas - looks like it's ours then ) Aryan race is a Nazi mis-nomer ... what does race even mean anyway? I have seen no hint that Proto-Indo Europeans, whose culture settled in Aryana (from whence the name was derived ; 'Aryans' ) were a 'race' nor that they battled with the people of Mongoloid cultures and languages (again not a 'race').

,only non-abrahamic tradition in it's original form in the world still standing ??? Do you mean mainstream world wide organised religious traditions ???,

I am sorry if any one is offended by my ‘materialism’ but that article is rubbish IMO (also, read some of the objections posted under that theory on the site, some are quiet valid) Those guys credentials ???? I happen to personally know and are friends with and get taught by Bundjulung Elders. These guys do not understand the indigenous mindset and are interpreting things LITERALLY. Westerners (and some ‘educated’ indigenous … and anyone that has been ‘infected’ by the mindset) have lost part of their mind (i.e. view / observation mode) , a basic 3 model (at least) is required ; westerners sacrificed a very important 3rd perspective when we adopted the dualistic outlook (which is either / or …or, if one likes, ‘digital’). All of this (giants, origins etc.) can be understood if one can again find this 3rd mindset. Which cant be found in a dualistic framework. Apparently this guy’s advice is one of the opinions behind the infiltration of ‘post-modernist’ curriculums in programs to educate whites about Aboriginals in Oz that I was bitching about earlier. The ‘Daimonic Reality’ which breaks into the world of dualism cannot be interpreted with one of the views of dualism (ie. It is a concrete real manifestation OR it is just a myth / story / imagination … it is actually part of both but neither of each). ‘Us westerners’ used to have this 3rd ‘Psychic Reality’ view, but the 17th century empiricism of Francis Bacon seemed to confirm Aristotle’s disdain for Plato’s ‘worthless spirituality’ . The philosophy of Rene Descartes ‘helped’ as well. We come into the modern world with a view of Mind (subject) and Extension (object). The Catholic Church (of course) had a good go at this as well; in the council of 869, they affirmed dogmatically that man was composed of two parts; body and spirit. The third component soul was incorporated vaguely under spirit … lumping it together so the essential distinction is now lost (ask ‘average anyone’ to describe the difference between the two). It is ‘soul’ (Gk; psyche, Lat; anima ) that is an intermediate world that partakes of the other two, not a world that is either of the other two; it is a world ‘between’ the other two that can partake of both). Jung seems to have been grasping towards it in his concept of ‘Psychic Reality’ (perhaps because he encountered it directly). To interpret the indigenous ‘reality’ in a western dualism (i.e. this did really happen physically … or it didn’t) and convey that to dualists is a great disservice to the Indigenous anywhere. The indigenous see it different and will affirm the reality of things ( Auntie B…. will get cranky if you dispute that the first man came out of that waterhole RIGHT THERE <points to it> ) yet she wont get cranky about another ‘dreamtime’ story that is different. (Confused The same seems to applies in Egyptology … for clarity I suggest the work of Rosemary Clarke … I know this applies to Aboriginality as I asked one of the most senior Bundjalung elders (the same the author of that article puts up for his own personal ‘cred’) and he said it is so in their culture … that is what ‘song lines’ are all about. * Just because little people left footprints around the fire last night does not prove their mundane physical appearance … although it proves their ‘ reality’, just as the fact that I can’t catch a little man at night in a box and show him to you the next day does not disprove his ‘un reality’. Tracks in the sand …. Tracks in our DNA … like flies at times … can’t see them … but can see where they have been. *Perhaps I can explain how variant 'myths' can be' true' to the dualistic mind with this quote; “ … thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry, subtly and diligently with great art, that our Order may seem an ornament even to the Stars that are in the Heavens at Night. In our rainbow-coloured texture we set forth the glory of the whole Universe— See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren! “

Damn! pressed unlike instead of quote again ! Do people get notified of unlikes as they do likes? I pressed quote (eventually) as I agree with your observation re 'usage'. 'Most studies' might benefit by forming an 'agenda' after the data is analysed

So ... who did the vandalism to the Lion's head ... it would have had to have been someone at least as 'outrageous' as Ramses II ... some distant ancestor perhaps?

You cant hold a good Diamon down As I wrote somewhere else around here ... its like sweeping it under the carpet and stomping down the lumps and like suppression of 'natural instincts' will surface in one way or another if it cant find expression in the new system. I like going into the basement of architecture, especially churches ... come of it has interesting symbolism ... as if 'someone' realised some of the above posted ideas .

yeah ... I was joking , Zawi (now sacked) used to 'chuck a tantie' like a squabbling penguin when any one came up with a 'maybe ...?' that was different to 'straight' interpretation. Last time I looked into the tunnels they just ... (ha! ... ) I mean last time I caught up with that story ( I haven't been down there) It just seemed to have faded away ... they found some stuff ... there was more ... they haven't done it yet. I am curious to know what IS under there. One of the more recent very large finds in the area was located by just digging there because not much was marked on the site digging map in that location. Many old sites were built on existent and natural cave complexes as well. Who knows what links with what.

Some people seem to have a remarkably strong constitution. I watched a brawl (from a distance ) in Auckland. Islander guy runs across the road, jumps, swings out an empty glass wine flagon from behind his back and lands, with all of that momentum, flagon first on the side of this Maori's head ... Maori winces to the side a bit, shakes his head like a wet dog, and turn to the guy and 'shapes up' ... (next day, giant Maori sitting near me at bar, staring at me ... I buy two beers and slide on over to him ... "There ya go mate." <big friendly Maori grin> Ohhh ... cheers cuz! " )

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/images/aryans/devaMahishasuraBattle.jpg Here is a face off after the Indo-Europeans split , (after that we have very distinctive separation of cultures and locations; Indian through the Hindu Kush into India and the others fanning outwards and eventually establishing the first Persian Empire in the west) Armies were obviously well established even before this time. These examples don't show a make shift skirmish. However I know of no P.I.E. peoples war with China . I wouldn't want to take an army like that along the silk Route !