Nungali

No offense but I think this karmic-scale-of-good-posts. multiple love smiley thing is a tad wierdsville ... I would be more happy if I got 'awarded' NONE for each post The thing is, your 'what if' and your ' I repent, I repent, I didnt mean it, please forgive me, I dont want eternal damnation" seem irksome to me and besides they are against my Lodge oathed behavioural patterns ... fine for you ... but because that doesn't exist in my universe I cant answer your 'what if' you are stuck with that ... its like asking The Pope about how to fix up for your next reincarnation or the Dali Lama for Holy Communion. So I guess you have a dilemma of conscious ... hmmm it must be tricky for a Christian to know there is at least ONE sin that cant be excused by " I repent, I repent, I didnt mean it, please forgive me, I dont want eternal damnation" (And if I know my Jahovahs he would say; " You should have thought of that before you did it ... it's TOO LATE NOW! " I answered, as best I could, from my perspective, your; "for some reason ?" above. That's all I can do for you ... to commit this sin or not ... it is up to you now ... choose wisely and decide how best not to "knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices.”

. Thankyou … brilliant … Always loved that piece but never saw the clip before … very psychologically (re this topic) apt IMO. (had a disturbed friend who had that dream most of her life … she could never turn and face them … very frustrating for me as I knew what would happen if she did … years later , messed up and still running.) I will add some more in a different vein … maybe we can get a little compendium of variant view happening. For me the whole concept of HGA is tied up with (or laid over ) the concept of the True Will (in Thelema, that is guys … not the ‘free will’ ( pre-emptive strike there) . Musings : I think Crowley may have embedded and given us a clue in certain Tarot cards aside from the Major; ART. Have a look at the 2 of wands: http://shadesofmidnight.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/2-of-wands-thoth.jpg Crowley describes this card as two crossed Dorjes (I know they are more like Phurba but I want to go with what he intended from the text).I am postulating that they represent the HGA and the True Will, consider: Firstly, the depth of the Vajra symbolism and what we are discussing here (Maybe one can’t get it fully until one studies the symbolism of Vajra and the related books (like in the Thelemic stuff / Magick / Thoth tarot ) ? But the ‘Old Boy’ did ‘stick it in’ the deck … in that place, for a reason. I can see a map emerging that Crowley outlined in a certain manner, but nowhere did he offer the detailed cosmology like the Buddhists did ; maybe that is why he studied (and encouraged) us to study) Buddhism ? { Warning: avoid reading if getting bored by obscure nungali linked symbolism } “Vajra (Devanagari: वज्र; Chinese: 金剛 jīngāng; Korean: 금강저 geumgangjeo; Tibetan: རྡོ་རྗེ། dorje; Dzongkha (Bhutan): dorji; Japanese: 金剛杵 kongōsho) is a Sanskrit word meaning both thunderbolt and diamond. “ … it is a symbolic ritual object that symbolizes both the properties of a diamond (indestructibility) and a thunderbolt (irresistible force). “ The earliest mention of the Vajra is in the Rigveda, a part of four Vedas. It is described as the weapon of Indra, the god of heaven and the chief deity of the Rigvedic pantheon. Indra is described as using the Vajra to kill sinners and ignorant persons. The Rigveda states that the weapon was made for Indra by Tvastar, the maker of divine instruments. “ In Buddhism the vajra is the symbol of Vajrayana, one of the three major branches of Buddhism. Vajrayana is translated as "Thunderbolt Way" or "Diamond Way" and can imply the thunderbolt experience of Buddhist enlightenment or bodhi. It also implies indestructibility, just as diamonds are harder than other gemstones. In the tantric traditions of Buddhism, the vajra is a symbol for the nature of reality, or sunyata, indicating endless creativity, potency, and skillful activity.” (IMO obvious expressions of the True Will. ) “ The practice of prefixing terms, names, places, and so on by vajra represents the conscious attempt to recognize the transcendental aspect of all phenomena; it became part of the process of "sacramentalizing" the activities of the spiritual practitioner and encouraged him to engage all his psychophysical energies in the spiritual life. Some components which make up the Vajra “ … One represents the phenomenal world (or in Buddhist terms Samsara), the other represents the noumenal world (or Nirvana). This is one of the fundamental dichotomies which are perceived by the unenlightened. The physical manifestation of the vajra, also called dorje in this context, is the male organ.” (a favourite Crowley ‘Holy Symbol’) And “ … made up of two or more animals, often representing the union of opposites, (or a harmonisation of qualities that transcend our usual experience) “ … like the Art card. “There is an elaborate system of correspondences between the five elements of the noumenal side of the vajra, and the phenomenal side.” Poison : Wisdom : Buddha Desire: wisdom of individuality- discriminating wisdom :Amitabha Anger/ hatred : mirror-like wisdom :Akshobhya delusion :reality wisdom :Vairocana greed/ pride : wisdom of equanimity: Ratnasambhava envy: all-accomplishing wisdom :Amoghasiddhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra .

Sorry, who are you asking?

Agreed ... but there is the mantra of economic rationalism; "But I can make money out of it "

( Loose terminology warning : I am using vague words here to convey a meaning , it would take a thesis to explain it properly … but since you asked; ) Because the ‘Holy Spirit’ is that internal faculty that connects with our ‘soul’ … it is to do with our own ‘personal development in Wisdom’ ; “He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much hath learned his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool, than of him.” And “Nevertheless have the greatest self-respect, and to that end sin not against thyself. The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices.” And “So shalt thou gradually develop the powers of thy soul.” {Liber Librae … the Book of the Balance.} Perhaps the sacred Essene tradition entered a bit into some of Mathew, Mark and Luke's writing? In a way I can relate ... it is a bit like me saying to you, "Okay ... you have lost the plot, blaspheme against me all you like (I can take it ...' I am a big boy now' ) but don't blaspheme against your own sacred ability to recognise truth as if you mess that up ... well Aside; I was surprised that when I did radio broadcasting I had to do a course first, part of it was legal obliugations and I was told that blasphemy was technically still against the Law in Australia - which included you definition but also 'criticism of the Bible" ... even being critical! (of course it is not a law that is enacted but back then it was still on the books ... look out any 'Pussy Riot' girls that come to Australia ... technically ..... )

Good Morning Isimsiz (I think your ignore button may be broken ?). Hi xor, Interesting link xor. Mr Nishihira maybe taught a similar system to certain select people, I do not know, I have experienced what he taught to Seniors who showed me. Again I do not know the names and terms in Chinese or Okinawan ... I was just shown on the physical level. During early training in Seito I was naïve , I came from a background in Shotokan, Sikiran, 3 types of Aikido. I asked how Seito deals with boxing as in my experience the others didn't deal with it well at all. I was invited to try it. Very soon , after some preliminary bullshit on my part I thought I saw an opening and tried to enter with a quick left right combo, like lightening my partner twists his hips left right with what seemed a wildly flailing arm, he hit ( I was shown this later) some nerve centre in the base of my left wrist with a forearm cross swing using his second extended knuckle of the second finger and whipped (rotate hips) the arm back across to strike back fist with knuckles into a spot inside my elbow. My punches never landed. Immediately I had two, not only painful,l but paralysed arms, standing there defenceless (well, legs but my Ki had been broken and my mind certainly 'distracted'), he moved in pushing my shoulder back with a soft knife hand blow and raised the other fist over my face (he showed me the next move he didn't do --- later ,,, horrible I am glad he didn't do that ! ) instead he used that same second knuckle, placed it on the top of my chest (fairly softly) and ran it down and twisted and dug in a bit, My legs folded and down I went , (all happened in a blur and a very quick time - faster than any 'boxing' I could do ! I realised how slow I was after that. No one ever told me I was THAT slow before but thank you teacher for showing me ). Then they got me up and rubbed some parts on me and I was okay ... except for some numbness in arms which went away in about 15 mins. I was never taught the system ... just the techniques. Is this the sort of thing the system in that link refers to ?

Higaonna is a Master. I extract this from the last link in my above post. As I said I know little of Chinese arts only after they influenced in Okinawa. But there is much influence in the development of Matsamura's art. "Matsumura is credited with passing on the Shōrin-ryū Kempō-karate kata known as naihanchi I & II, passai, seisan, chintō, gojūshiho, kusanku (the embodiment of kusanku's teaching as passed on to Tode Sakugawa) and hakutsuru. The hakutsuru kata contains the elements of the Fujian White Crane system taught within the Shaolin system which was created by Fang Qiniang after destroying the gang who murdered her father Fang Zhonggong (Fang Shiyu). Lin Shixian was a Master of Black Crane and Eighteen Fist Monk Boxing. One of his Masters was Fang Zhonggong. He helped train Fang Quinang to defeat the gang who killed her father.. Kwan Pang Yuiba (1828-1912).(Became Master of Shaolin White Crane in the temple and supplanted Black Crane in 1837 as the official Temple Crane style, he was first student of Fāng Qīniáng...

I had trepidation in opening this thread because of the title, however I am relieved to read this; I couldn't count the amount of conversations I have had with people who get into 'spirit guides' stuff who just accept things on face value. People do it in material world as well ... they don't test or examine or use the 'Mercurial faculty'. I had a friend years ago that was into various types of ritual magic. I asked him how his interest arose and how he developed this awareness for the need of 'scrutiny' . I found his story interesting (aside from the fact that he appeared to be born 'a natural') ; "When I was a little kid, one night I woke up in the middle of the night and saw a dim light, it was a smudge of light on the wall that grew bigger and brighter until it was shining and then a person walked out of the light and stood in my room, he was glowing and I said to him "Who are you?" he didn't answer so I said it louder and he got angry and started looking nasty so I said, "You look stupid! Go away!" and he shrunk back into the light the light went out." Many people don't have a clue about the process and just dive in ... I tell them "Well, of course... do what you want, but tell me this; if something goes wrong with the electricity in your house, do you just start fiddling with the wiring? Or do you get an electrician ... if you want to fix things like that yourself, do you just start experimenting or do you do some research first. There are a few local people (New Age types) that purport to 'remove entities' for people ... my specialty is helping people get their bread out of a live toaster with a fork

The interesting thing I found with this is that they (New Age lets-cash-in-on-this-one types) couldn't fudge it. It would be interesting to see a list of all the cult / religions predictions about so-and-so coming, this and that ending with their dates, for the last 100 years. A LONG list, I would think. next to it would be a list of how people tried to 'fudge' the non-occurring result. I remember reading that a religion ( I cant remember which one) revised their date 3 or 4 times when it didn't happen; 'Sorry, a slight miscalculation ... now it will happen in 12 years' ... and so on, after a few revisions people started to ; hmmmm But they couldn't do that with the calendar ... the date was 'set in stone' as they say. How did people deal with the flop .... just went out and bought things to distract themselves ... and found the next thing to latch on to. I could never figure out the fuss about this end of Mayan Calender in 2012 in that year my calendar ended on 31 December ... this year's one does too ... I just buy a new one .... a calendar has end sometime as our concept of time is linear not circular so no calendar is going to last 'forever' . Alignment with the galactic centre ? ... check a star atlas ... lining up with Galactic centre is like saying "aim at that thing that is ... somewhere over there". I did notice time did speed up ... or am I just getting older?

Since you insist on links ... here you go; enjoy reading they are very interesting and educational. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishihira_Kosei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohan_S%C5%8Dken http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabe_Matsumura http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumura_S%C5%8Dkon .

In dojo ... what if someone who is not in a dojo but comes into my garden and says my master can put you on your arse without touching you? Then when I go okay show me , he doesn't bow first, so I didn't. He challenge me rudely so he should bow first to show it is art ... He is disrespectful to me AND he showed disrespect to his own 'KI Society; by representing them badly. BUT STILL I am not a brute ... I executed perfect deadly technique on target 100% but never hurt the guy . But you are right maybe it is only his fault so I apologise about the remarks I made . In any case I still taught him a lesson and I am not a brawling brute )even though Seito has techniques for eyes throat and testicles ... we have a drop throw that throws by throwing the other not with arm or KI ... we grab the testicles, twist drop and throw by them ... that is Okinawan Seito. And respect is important ... one senior didn't ask teacher ( the one in the video, when he was younger) for training properly ... he 'shaped up' to him, teacher immediately flies through the air, one roundhouse kick fake one way, then the other way real, breaks seniors knee. Teacher says ; no sparring, only training and real fighting. I have broken bones from training from my instructor ... but healed they are tough! ... I did Aikido for years ... people worry about a bruise ! I am sorry but this is my experience. No you are right , that is why I apologised but my instructor wasn't impressed with Aikido or others in tournament . Whistle blows he immediately knocks out opponent and he is disqualified ... they say 'No punch to head" . Our next guy, so now he cant punch to head either so he just stands there. Opponent tries wild crazy roundhouse to head. our guy crouches and lifts up elbow and opponents leg hits his elbow, our guy grabs leg, hits nuts and takedown ... he disqualified ... no elbow to inner thigh - too dangerous; no below the bely and no takedown not allowed - disqualified ... I know ... this is karate rules but they are not real or art ... just sport. And guess what ,,, referee was instructor of opponents style ... we left in disgust . That was my experience. When I was training with others they all taught me a lesson, that is why I trained with them, to learn lessons , you should try it. Variety. I disagree 'O'sensai' in Aikido changed the purpose after WWII ... Seito only has ONE purpose ... to protect your parents and home. If any one else is reading this; what if crack freaks break into your home with weapons and that is where your parents are ... or your wife or children, are you going to worry about beating yourself or your 'nafs' ??? This isn't sport or show karate ,,, it looks 'unimpressive' ... not good for movies but REAL fighting style. What do you mean about my friends level ? The cheeky one in the garden ... not high enough level to put me on my arse with Ki Aikido instructor who was good ... I don't know a high dan. Seito teacher 6th Dan ... Mr Nishihira ... I don't know he trained in pants with legs turned up and white singlet , he didn't even have a dojo I never asked ... the fact that he was the nephew of Hohan Sokken (look him up ) and inherited his weapons was enough for me.

Well, in the meantime and to post something constructive while I await for the promised posts; I was wondering what people think about the Wiki article on HGA? What about Crowley’s changing view? … I am not keen on Carroll ( two HGA’s each of them ???) . Crowley is closer IMO with his “The absence of his bodily, mental and astral consciousness is indeed cardinal to success, for it is their usurpation of his attention which has made him deaf to his” [this bit; ] “ Soul, and his preoccupation with their affairs that has prevented him from perceiving that Soul “ I note the world Soul . In other places I talked about soul in the sense of how we have lost our ‘soul / Psyche; see the myth of Psyche, and Gemini (twins with one immortal and one mortal) and its tarot card The Lovers (or ‘brothers’). I wrote how soul has been subsumed and virtually consumed (and hidden or repressed in) ‘spirit’ and the only polarity we have left is ‘material’ i.e. from 3 ideas to 2 so now the dominant view (in modern societies but not indigenous ones) is two worlds, either/ or spirit or matter. The third world is the ‘Daimonic World’ I have written about too. This relates , in the Wiki article; “Crowley seems to consider it equivalent to the Genius of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, the Augoeides of Iamblichus, the Atman of Hinduism, and the Daemon of the ancient Greeks.” To understand THAT one needs familiarity with the Neo-Platonists. But it also a common theme through much of the history of Hermetics, a mode that took in GD / deck/Crowley/Thoth deck. A comprehensive study of the concept (going by definition of the article linked to – I realise many will have their own ideas what the words Holy Guardian Angel means) starts with, as referenced; “ Zoroastrian Arda Fravaš ('Holy Guardian Angels')”. And back to the first Levantine religion, however this is hardly known and who has ever read the Avestas … even though they are some of our earliest records, on par at least with the earliest Vedas? I talked about this in other posts too. This religion’s latter priests bore the title Magi and gave us the word Magic. Many religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha’i) owe much to Zoroastrianism as the originator of many key concepts in our spiritualitly philosophy and religion. And concepts of Holy Guardian Angels and various hierarchies of Yazatas or angels. That’s a starting point to hep understand the origin of the idea … then track it to Egypt in Alexandria where it was a large factor in the Alexandrian Synthesis ; add other influences including Egyptian Hermetics, Greeks … and anyone with a boat, trade and books (hence the Great Library of Alexandria), then more teachers studying and philosophising giving rise to the Egyptian teachers (and others) of the first classic Greek Philosophers; probably eventually via Socrates ,Plato, Neo Platonists, migrations out, as well, to places like Harran , Turkey, Syria and further. Eventually to be picked by Islam and imported into Europe via Sicily, Spain and other Islamic ports and settlements in Europe and by the Crusades. Then the classic age of Hermetics in Europe. Then a decline, then a revival then a collapse with, closer to our time, an upsurge in it polarity; ‘ Aristotelian rationalism’ , church opposition, and eventually resurgences resulting in criss cross fertilisation of occult groups and the GD and Crowley wrapping that all up (and Waite too in his way) in a bunch of books about magic/k, THIS tradition I am writing about (the Golden Chain) and several tarot decks with Crowley (and others) drawing out this HGA idea as a central theme in practical magick and linking it all through the Thoth Deck . And EVERYONE has added, removed, blended and developed the concepts along the way … up to the present. However I find the article makes a valid quote: “It is impossible to lay down precise rules by which a man may attain to the knowledge and conversation of His Holy Guardian Angel; for that is the particular secret of each one of us; a secret not to be told or even divined by any other, whatever his grade. It is the Holy of Holies, whereof each man is his own High Priest, and none knoweth the Name of his brother's God, or the Rite that invokes Him.” And also this : “Crowley only espouses a view that the Holy Guardian Angel is the 'silent self' in his early life. In his late sixties, when composing Magick Without Tears, he presents a very different view. According to this definition, the Holy Guardian Angel is not one's 'self', but an independent and discrete being, who may have been a human like oneself at one stage.” Now we get to the ‘objective/subjective ‘dilemma’, is the angel part of us or an angel ‘out there’? If we try to nut out if the HGA has a separate existence from us or is a higher part of us we need to understand all possibilities are reality … as to seek an either /or classification is part of the dualist dialogue. The HGA may well be the our ‘lost soul’, psyche, Psyche, and that is the third part of our being we are trying to find; it has a daimonic nature so it partakes of both worlds and is in its own world … but we can access it. Where ‘our’ HGA ‘intersects’ with us , that is our soul (whatever that means for you) and where that energy exists ‘external’ (to be dualistic ) is Anima Mundi ; the soul of the world. It is also, in terms of Jungian psyche and nearly ALL of our mythology, a journey to redeem our own ‘feminine’ in ourselves (man and woman) and in the world … we could do with it. Then there is the Thelemic concept of Hadit a complex subject, perhaps dealt with separately. Except to say that Hadit is the centre that is everywhere … it can be in the centre of the world or the centre of your heart ; as the priest says in the Gnostic Mass, “I am the flame that burns in every heart of man, and in the core of every star,” ( from The Book of the Law). If that is hard to understand how ‘one thing’ can be both in one place and another at the same time but that is the essential nature of the daimonic world and if that seems crazy read some quantum physics. I am sure there are other definitions relevant to outside the reference to the article; I can think of one; I was bought up in a Roman Catholic household. Over my childhood bed was a picture of two innocent children crossing a rather rickety bridge over a deep scary and wild gorge an angel was in the air and assisting them … I was told that was my Guardian Angel (they never used the word ‘Holy”). In this case the angel isn’t split in two but is looking after two children (that is a classic example of a daemonic realm, mythological theme inversion by the way) … Doing double duty that one J Crowley gives us an image in his tarot deck: http://www.keepsilence.org/liberxxii/assets/img/medium/trump_14_art.jpg Here the ‘worlds’ intersect to create one being from both of them … inverse daimonic ‘inward’ manifestation of the ‘outward’ manifestation of the ‘split being’ whose soul is lost and sought to be found by reuniting the two. Note:, Gemini represents the two halves seeking union here we have the ‘inversion’: “This card is the complement and the fulfilment of Atu VI, Gemini. It pertains to Sagittarius, the opposite to Gemini in the Zodiac” * Also ; “The first problem of alchemy was to raise mineral to vegetable life; the adepts thought that the proper way to do this was to imitate the processes of nature. Distillation, for instance, was not an operation to be performed by heating something in a retort over a flame; it had to take place naturally, even if months were required to consummate the Work. (Months, at that period of civilization, were at the disposal of enquiring minds.)” * Finding ones True Will and ‘developing contact’ with the HGA may require an ‘alchemical circular distillation’ being involved in the HGA /True Will processes. “ Visit the interior parts of the earth: by rectification thou shalt find the hidden stone”* And a divinatory meaning that seems relevant to Rituals to invoke the HGA : “success after elaborate manoeuvres” * *Quoted from the Book of Thoth.

Ping No ... same answer ... you answer the questions and stop trying to get movies and youtube and books to do it for you ... you cant answer can you?

PONG . Do you mean to say you have been arguing with me about aikido and okinawan martial arts and you have NEVER done EITHER of them and you are saying IAM THE ONE that doesn't know what he is talking about ? . Well if they aren't Okinawan and they don't like Tohei what the hell have they got to do with this 'discussion'? Or are you saying this is the Aikido group you trained with even though you don't practice aikido ? Isnt Gozo that one that dances around in a circle and expects someone to attack him by entering his whirlwind ??? Maybe not, maybe I have mixed up with another Aikdo ki ? In any case the Aikido use a weak attack to start ... "Hit me this way " ... and people do it out of respect for their master ... that breeds weakness. I Can defeat any attack if I can say how I want the attack to come As I said ... I trained aikido for years and showed respect in dojo even though I could defeat them in open martial arts ... but aikido doesn't work that way ... they restrict techniques and say only do this or that and train against that ... I defeated my instructor in bokkan as I used simple technique he had never seen, always training against only aikido style attacks where the attack is restricted in form by the direction of the defender ... crazy! I moved in to attack, he was overconfidently expecting me to follow through with my bluff, I kicked my (rubber) sandal through the air and into his face .. his ki was broken ... I cut his arms as I entered with down, ribs with up as I passed , got behind and through the neck from behind ... weak ki! . (And he has never read Art of War or Mushashi ! ) I did show respect as normally that technique is done with hard traditional wooden Okinawan sandal (by the way I tried it on Seito swordsman. his ki was stong he charged forward, knocked the sandal away with the sword and beat me in to the cut and 'killed' me. Actually the best Aikido man I met ... weapons and sword as well was Aikikai .. but he cross trained with many styles, karate etc. and tested himself and developed skills against them ... that's why he was so good ... he got out of the box . Maybe you should try to get out of the box. I know you seem threatened by new and different things so it might be good for you ... my friend.

PING A friend challenged me ... he had KI society technique ... he was weak ... he said he can beat me without a touch ... what a laugh ... he did ki society weak aikido ... I went for his eyeballs throat and stopped a big toe kick on his nuts (no injury, perfect focus) he said "You kicked my balls!!! " I said , "Yes" he said, " I felt it but it dint hurt." I said " I know, stopped in time - focus." he ran away and didn't want to 'share techniques again Defeat me without hardly touching me using KI ... what a joke . And he studied at KI society. Etiquette and spirit didn't help him. He didn't show respect first as he said I would get my arse knocked over by KI ... he never bowed ... where is Ki society respect. I continually met you with respect in Taobums threads ... you started disrespect . You have a history of this. no matter to me ... I have strong Ki ... I laugh at your insults as I think you MUST be joking

PONG Okay ... I will not mention a man that has passed on ... maybe it is the Aikido that YOU practice is weak then ... is that better?

PING Now your argument is so weak you have to try to distract me with silly insults that do not hurt me or distract me ... weak like Tohei Akido ... in any case I cleaned out a toilet today ... what is wrong with that ,,, it might do you some good and teach you humility ... my friend

PONG! Yes I did or did you think I sneaked a peek at your link on the 4 principles of Aikido ki then pretended I didn't look then made a post pretending I didn't look but knew them anyway ... but wrote them wrong (according to you and the site) That's one imagination you have there . Oh ... and I suppose you think I made up the stuff about Okinawan Martial arts too ?? (which is actually the only bit ON topic and the bit you ignored ... dude!

Blah blah blah ... I knew that already ... you logic is still faulty; if I only did Aikikai and Akikai did not teach the 4 principles then how did I lean them? I learned them in aikido first they worked good ... like magic. I learned a different application version of them in Shorin ryu they defeated the aikido version ... because aikido got all messed up after the war ... read the history ,,, it was very different before WWII ... they started a movement to be part of a mystical society that would share in rulership of territory after the won the war ... but they didn't win ... they were defeated and weakened in spirit and they changed aikido to be more suitable for their American overlords as 1) the old system would never have been allowed ... 2) if the Americans had found out what they were up to they would have put the Aiki into the then equivalent of Guantanamo Bay.

You ask for links before; http://es.cyclopaedia.net/wiki/Kosei-Nishihira Venerable teacher ... fourth down in family line from Bushi Matsamura ; personal body guard to 3 Okinawan kings ( founder of Seito style Matsumara family traditon ( not temple style ... that was his day job as king's bodyguard ... temple style was what Funokoshi took to Japan ... it was incorporated as chidren's style (primary school) physical education program ... serious ! ) Part of the video is Chinto kata ... taught to Bushi by a Chinese pirate he was sent to capture (but could not defeat, so they made friends ) I learnt all of the Seito kata and their Seito tradition Bunkai (usually hidden) up to Kusanku (also taught by a Chinese in Okinawa but an envoy, not a pirate. I will give you a hint ... if you want to understand Chinto ... imagine you are fighting on stairs or in/on a boat. ... that is why Bushi Could not beat Chinto, Chinto was up on rocks at the back of a cave where Bushi trapped him ... but could not defeat him. Bushi Matsumura was also unable to defeat another challenger, in disguise, it turned out to be a woman ... he married her. I also studied Seito weapon traditon (not from Bushi but 3rd after him , Mr Nishihira's Uncle and teacher Hohan Sokken ... look him up - very interesting ... uncorrupted system ... he was in Sth America and missed WW II and the American corruption of Okinawan arts in the years after the way ... he came back from Sth America much later with a pure family Shorin-Ryu seito tradition. I did aikido as well for 12 years and studied all weapons ... you think I don't know what I talk about Isimsiz ?

What that he " discovered them himself" and " Koichi Tohei was not the first one to realize those principles" You are contradicting yourself ... in any case Tohei Akido is weak like your argument it contradicts itself I did both Aikido and Shrin-Ryu ... I could have kicked arse of everyone if I wanted in Aikido, even instructor - if I wasn't content to be polite and learn what I could. Instructor left eventually, when he left, last day after class he asked me for a dynamic bokkan contest .. I 'killed' him easily - twice ! And not in my dreams. His Ki was weak and not concentrated he had his 4 principles out of order .. Shrin -ryu has 4 principles different and stronger than Aikido but in the RIGHT order. Okinawan arts are different to Japanese regardless of wether the word kiko means qiqong in Japanese ( your argument has broken logic there in relation to Okinawan Kiko but I suppose you wont understand what I mean again ... convenient for you, yes? ... have you done Okinawan arts? I have done both Okinawan and Japanese and tested both against each other. Okinawan martial artists had to defend against swords when they had no swords ... and guns too (Commander Perry and later others ... only with minature ornamental iron fan.

And you be aware of what YOU SAID; " Koichi Tohei did not learn those four principles from his sensei Morihei Ueshiba, rather discovered himself.

Arrghhh ! Put the robe back on .... pull the hood down ..... struth!

No I am right .... trust me

A good observation ... lets not whitewash ... I am sorry if I offended anyone... I spent many years working in the real world; hospital emergency ward <hide gruesome details> where that was part of life. In refugee relocation programme , I dealt with people that <hides horrible and gruesome details> .... in my life curtains were opened to reality and the more the veil was dropped over things (to make us all feel good and safe and shielded) the less people seemed to care about it .... until it happened to them or their families ... however I will respect the advise and requests of the forum regulators I am sorry, you are doing it again. Of course I judge the entire church of this crime! That is part of the whole gist of the problem; that the WHOLE church ( administration, ministry, Papacy , organised body, legal entity , egrigore, whatever you want to call it has been complacent in covering it up, and moving people around knowing full well what they were up to. and exposeing more of their flock to the same. I am not saying the whole church is responsible in the concept of a real church being the body of believers ... of course every member of the church isn't responsible .... many of them were the victims. I will stop holding a grudge when the situation is addressed and proper action has been taken. I act so it doesn't happen in the first place and if any trace of it appears THEN it should be acted upon before evil happens. of course nothing is perfect and things slip through and do manifest evil, then you are right we must act to make sure it ... firstly STOPS! and then we can start to make sure it doesn't happen again. How can we act to ensure that it can never happen again while we haven't even come in with a guilty verdict yet! " Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil.