Nungali

,only non-abrahamic tradition in it's original form in the world still standing ??? Do you mean mainstream world wide organised religious traditions ???,

I am sorry if any one is offended by my ‘materialism’ but that article is rubbish IMO (also, read some of the objections posted under that theory on the site, some are quiet valid) Those guys credentials ???? I happen to personally know and are friends with and get taught by Bundjulung Elders. These guys do not understand the indigenous mindset and are interpreting things LITERALLY. Westerners (and some ‘educated’ indigenous … and anyone that has been ‘infected’ by the mindset) have lost part of their mind (i.e. view / observation mode) , a basic 3 model (at least) is required ; westerners sacrificed a very important 3rd perspective when we adopted the dualistic outlook (which is either / or …or, if one likes, ‘digital’). All of this (giants, origins etc.) can be understood if one can again find this 3rd mindset. Which cant be found in a dualistic framework. Apparently this guy’s advice is one of the opinions behind the infiltration of ‘post-modernist’ curriculums in programs to educate whites about Aboriginals in Oz that I was bitching about earlier. The ‘Daimonic Reality’ which breaks into the world of dualism cannot be interpreted with one of the views of dualism (ie. It is a concrete real manifestation OR it is just a myth / story / imagination … it is actually part of both but neither of each). ‘Us westerners’ used to have this 3rd ‘Psychic Reality’ view, but the 17th century empiricism of Francis Bacon seemed to confirm Aristotle’s disdain for Plato’s ‘worthless spirituality’ . The philosophy of Rene Descartes ‘helped’ as well. We come into the modern world with a view of Mind (subject) and Extension (object). The Catholic Church (of course) had a good go at this as well; in the council of 869, they affirmed dogmatically that man was composed of two parts; body and spirit. The third component soul was incorporated vaguely under spirit … lumping it together so the essential distinction is now lost (ask ‘average anyone’ to describe the difference between the two). It is ‘soul’ (Gk; psyche, Lat; anima ) that is an intermediate world that partakes of the other two, not a world that is either of the other two; it is a world ‘between’ the other two that can partake of both). Jung seems to have been grasping towards it in his concept of ‘Psychic Reality’ (perhaps because he encountered it directly). To interpret the indigenous ‘reality’ in a western dualism (i.e. this did really happen physically … or it didn’t) and convey that to dualists is a great disservice to the Indigenous anywhere. The indigenous see it different and will affirm the reality of things ( Auntie B…. will get cranky if you dispute that the first man came out of that waterhole RIGHT THERE <points to it> ) yet she wont get cranky about another ‘dreamtime’ story that is different. (Confused The same seems to applies in Egyptology … for clarity I suggest the work of Rosemary Clarke … I know this applies to Aboriginality as I asked one of the most senior Bundjalung elders (the same the author of that article puts up for his own personal ‘cred’) and he said it is so in their culture … that is what ‘song lines’ are all about. * Just because little people left footprints around the fire last night does not prove their mundane physical appearance … although it proves their ‘ reality’, just as the fact that I can’t catch a little man at night in a box and show him to you the next day does not disprove his ‘un reality’. Tracks in the sand …. Tracks in our DNA … like flies at times … can’t see them … but can see where they have been. *Perhaps I can explain how variant 'myths' can be' true' to the dualistic mind with this quote; “ … thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry, subtly and diligently with great art, that our Order may seem an ornament even to the Stars that are in the Heavens at Night. In our rainbow-coloured texture we set forth the glory of the whole Universe— See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren! “

Damn! pressed unlike instead of quote again ! Do people get notified of unlikes as they do likes? I pressed quote (eventually) as I agree with your observation re 'usage'. 'Most studies' might benefit by forming an 'agenda' after the data is analysed

So ... who did the vandalism to the Lion's head ... it would have had to have been someone at least as 'outrageous' as Ramses II ... some distant ancestor perhaps?

You cant hold a good Diamon down As I wrote somewhere else around here ... its like sweeping it under the carpet and stomping down the lumps and like suppression of 'natural instincts' will surface in one way or another if it cant find expression in the new system. I like going into the basement of architecture, especially churches ... come of it has interesting symbolism ... as if 'someone' realised some of the above posted ideas .

yeah ... I was joking , Zawi (now sacked) used to 'chuck a tantie' like a squabbling penguin when any one came up with a 'maybe ...?' that was different to 'straight' interpretation. Last time I looked into the tunnels they just ... (ha! ... ) I mean last time I caught up with that story ( I haven't been down there) It just seemed to have faded away ... they found some stuff ... there was more ... they haven't done it yet. I am curious to know what IS under there. One of the more recent very large finds in the area was located by just digging there because not much was marked on the site digging map in that location. Many old sites were built on existent and natural cave complexes as well. Who knows what links with what.

Some people seem to have a remarkably strong constitution. I watched a brawl (from a distance ) in Auckland. Islander guy runs across the road, jumps, swings out an empty glass wine flagon from behind his back and lands, with all of that momentum, flagon first on the side of this Maori's head ... Maori winces to the side a bit, shakes his head like a wet dog, and turn to the guy and 'shapes up' ... (next day, giant Maori sitting near me at bar, staring at me ... I buy two beers and slide on over to him ... "There ya go mate." <big friendly Maori grin> Ohhh ... cheers cuz! " )

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/images/aryans/devaMahishasuraBattle.jpg Here is a face off after the Indo-Europeans split , (after that we have very distinctive separation of cultures and locations; Indian through the Hindu Kush into India and the others fanning outwards and eventually establishing the first Persian Empire in the west) Armies were obviously well established even before this time. These examples don't show a make shift skirmish. However I know of no P.I.E. peoples war with China . I wouldn't want to take an army like that along the silk Route !

I was having a poke at the view that all Martial Arts in China came from India. Humans are supposed to have originated in Africa. I believe human Martial Arts started with humans. Later, specific styles may have migrated into other areas and influenced the forms there. The history of battle and war is a pretty long one ... especially tribal warfare . people learnt from the processes of invasion and defence as well. The cross-cultural influence in Martial Arts may have been going on long ago between China and India, before Buddhism. The time I am talking about above is before the Vedas. 'European looking' people were established in empire, in position with access to China and possibly Tibet. (One needs to remember that Persians (the western moving P.I.E. descendants ) were quite varied, some with light skin and hair , brown and green eyes ... it wasn't until after conquest and invasion of Arabs that many Persians or Iranians took on a their modern appearance.)

I believe so ...

Quick! Someone inform Zahi Hawass !

Okay ... excuse me again ... may I ask another question? Why is Tsongkhapa in you profile picture blocked with the international symbol for 'not allowed' ?

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww252/Death-Pony7/Senior%20Seminar%20Artists/Chinese_Armor_4.jpg

Here is how you adapt spirituality to protect land, crops and people without 'justified violence'. Westerner : "But surely you must have other exceptions of when you are allowed to kill, what if invades come and try to steal your food, women and children?' Islander; "We have a secret place we go to and hide that I cant even tell you about, some men stay." Westerner; " Ah! The warriors?" Islander; "We have no warriors, they are spirit men. When the war canoes came, the last ones, a very long time ago , we leave some food and water on the beach, behind the beach on the way to the village is the ancestor ground, if they can get through that and get near the village then, the spirit men have all sorts of tricks hidden around, things appear and disappear, strange shapes and noises, and at night it works even better as the war canoes prefer to come at night . They usually just run away. "Sometimes for fun , we do that at night time to make the children laugh."

" Monks wouldn't want to fight without a spiritual side to the art, without it it just becomes violence " Without it , it does not become justified violence

Indian and Celtic DNA have a root in P.I.E. DNA, but if it is later differentiated DNA than that is interesting. but ... erggg too off topic Witches ? Huh? what about the origins of the Phrygian cap, especially the early forms of Mithras, pre-Roman and Greek in the form of Mitra , one of the original ‘Yazatas’ (angels or graceful emenations) of the Zoroastrian Ahura Mazda who … damn! Too off topic … Edit " forgot to add that there are stories that the 'Older Masters' that influenced Tibet came from the West, in Iran that they came from the east. other stories and theories that monotheism originated from Zoroastrianism via proto P.I.E. religion via PIE migration from Russia bringing Siberian shamanism (to where monotheism is 'quantum' tracked). Also their could be links to this with Bonn of Tibetan Shamanism and it might all link back to Mongolia ... nice little feedback loop for the Chinese ... and actually links further back to the Gobi Desert ... which wasn't always a desert ( hint hint)

Ha! 'New Dawn' magazine strikes again. IMO a mix of Anthropological ideas based on modern finds and mumbo-jumbo. My mix of Anthropology and mumbo-jumbo is quiet different and backed up by archaeology... as far as back as we have evidence and then we go to other records ... not the writings of Blavatsky ... which is based on evidence that is far too late but the upon the earliest records we have from the earliest Vedas, the Avestas (which both target the similar 'Homeland' Airyana Vaeja), the Iranian Bundahishn and The Shahnameh- Book of Kings, ( an epic composed by the Iranian poet Hakim Abul-Qasim Mansur later known as Ferdowsi Tusi, and completed around 1010 CE. - Ferdowsi means 'from paradise', and is derived from the name Ferdous {cf. Avestan pairi-daeza, later para-diz then par-des or par-dos, arabized to fer-dos. Tusi means 'from Tus'. In the poet's case, the name Ferdowsi Tusi became a name and a title: The Tusi Poet from Paradise. } ) This targets the original concept of ‘paradise,’ the root concept of the Garden of Eden in Levantine religion, Shamballah in Buddhism and Shangri-La in the west, in the upper north east reaches of Tajikistan (and Kyrgyzstan) where there are a series of valleys that run up into the mountains south of the main silk root ( a bit below them … even on a modern satellite map, one with common sense {the most uncommon of human traits } ) one can see what went on by observing the landform. Nearby is the Pamir region, which has the geological landforms as depicted (in symbolic form) in traditional Buddhist paintings of Shambalah. This is also the lost homeland described in the Vedas (the ‘lost ‘ sacred preparation of Soma can be bought as a quick hit draught in any market place in Tajikistan. It is based on ‘Ephedera’ , ephedrine - which might explain some of Indra’s ‘exploits’ – “He of 1000 testicles” … talk about testosterone overload! And mix that with a speed-freak warlord , no wonder the socially generous rulers of ‘Asuras’ had a problem with the 'Devas', the 'Asuras' were known as not only having a physical ‘paradise’ but one of the most progressive, fair and advanced government yet to be seen, one of the reason people flocked to this empire). These people, even before then, when they were one people, where travelling into China long before the date of those mummies. Even much later during the revamping and redefining that ‘Zoroaster’ bought to the old religion, there are Zoroastrian archaeological sites well into China (the P.I.E. people were the first to domesticate the horse). And much further east into China are old Manichean sites as well (which can be seen as a blend of Avestan and various Chinese philosophies and religious practice) . Not much to do with Kung-fu is it? All I can add is that the spread and influence of martial arts, kung-fu or whatever one wants to term it, is a hodge-podge of indigenous development , trade influence and indigenous modifications going back to ...... And ‘Europeans’ , Aryans, and others have been going back and forth to China for a long time … it is even possible that there were links in the P.I.E. peoples hypothesised Urheimat of the south east Russian Steppe into Mongolia. Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and western Chinese Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region: http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/maps/airyana.htm This page might be helpful too’ http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/maps/index.htm ....

Excellent on a quick view - dying to read now but also busy ... promised myself to weed the lettuce patch.

For 'meditation' perhaps. For years (and sometimes out of nostalgia or for a 'top up' lately) I did meditation at midnight, also dawn, midday and sunset - the 4 'stations of the Sun'. After a time of constant practice it really changes one headspace as it turns out that one of those is going to interrupt the sleep cycle ... and that seemed a crucial part of the meditation ... and one with a 'hidden' in built design ... to interrupt the sleep cycle - a phase of loosing consciousness in sleep ...' ignorance cycle' - a phase of losing consciousness while awake (that is, losing 'higher consciousness and awareness' while walking around as an awake robotoid) and 'death cycle' (loosing consciousness and awareness imprinted on 'that which survives') ie, practice for dying. Just staying up late to midnight wont do that (except with this meditation if you do that, chances are you will have to break sleep cycle at dawn - sneaky! Whoever thought THAT up ) Favourite training time though ... just after dawn! I used to love swinging a Bo in the park by the river and looking upstream to the mountains ... or doing Ecu on the beach at dawn ... aaah! those were the days!

... . OOOooo ! was it still smokable (ha that freaked out spell check check)? If they were Romans it was probably an expedition to Bactria that went too far north (too stoned, got lost?). On a more serious note; If they were ‘celtic’, I am confused ( have you got a link to that info I want to check it out). If they were P.I.E.’s they may have come from the nearby Aryan homelands of Airyana Vaeja. http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm People got from Africa into China somehow, the silk root (check maps on above site) looks like the obvious route, so it goes way back … WAAAAY back ... before there was silk. I am a strong advocate that Martial arts started in Africa .

Hey guys ... I confess near total ignorance of the subject but ... errrmmmmm .... When those soft and fabby monks were sitting around doing nothing but meditating and needing defence of their crops and food stores ... who were they defending them from ... bandits with no martial skills or weapons? No local warloards around with martial skills and weapons? No army? I better go back and re-read the first post to see exactly what is being talked about here. (It reminds me about the conversation where Okinawan Martial Arts were said to have an origin in Chinese arts ...what, Okinawa was total utopia before the Chinese came along? Chinese arts had a big LATER INFLUENCE in Okinawa ... but still, today Okinawan arts are very different (compare White Crane form and 'Hakatsuru' similar but distinctly different)

Their brains and minds seem bigger than ours ... I believe their intelligence was ... and the ones I meet today still seem to have it. - Poor old white fellas ! Well, there ARE smaller human-ish little guys that leave footprints in the sand around the fire in my teachers Gunya but these little people don't fit into an Anthropological discussion ... more of a Shamanic one. Hominids, I use in the restricted sense of the term … in that 'we' are the only hominids left ... there used to be heaps of hominid species. Your mention of coffee and Java is interesting as these ..('hold on to your hats ... I am about to go all non post-modernist / 'racist' here ) Negrito types of Australoid are the same type as (but a type variation of) the Tasmanian Aboriginal, Negrito people of New Guinea and their 'relatives' are throughout south east Asia including Java. Another type of Australian ( with a larger range of variation within the type - similar to the large range the Caucasian exhibits i.e. some can be blonde and have green eyes {stunningly beautiful people IMO } ) has roots going back up through the to the north west of Australia (but their homeland is now under the Arafura Sea on a large plane that was covered with sea when the last ice age ended) across the then narrow divide into south east Asia, particularly the Andaman Islands (which up until about 1950 white people didn't set foot on ... a cultural preserve ... and also relating to the fact that when some Anthropologists tried to land there in a boat one got a bow-fired spear through his chest ... now it’s covered in resorts ), a tiny pocket in India and slightly larger one in Sri Lanka. They appear to have been settled in India for some time - the original Australoid homeland, and perhaps were driven out or moved out due to Mongoloid expansion from the north and east and Pre Proto-Indo-European (PIE) expansion in from the north West ( through the Hindu Kush) or around the coast from the west (at the time of the first phase expansion of the pre PIE people, when they came into the Nile Valley (the Ancient Egyptians were not Africans). There is another type that has very 'black' Indigo coloured skin. Of course since these waves of migrations into Australia since the end of the ice age (and possibly after around 6000 BC when the dingo first appears in the fossil record ... whose closest relative is the wild dog of India ... but that is a bit of an unexplained mystery how Indian Australoids got here around 6000 BC) there has been much cross breeding and many types generated ( there used to be at least 600 different cultural / language groups). There are two types of desert people, one came from the north west across the 'top end', all the way around, but not Tasmania later than that, around the bottom and up into the dessert, following the rivers. The other desert people, came looong ago straight in from the north west down into the desert. Of course, they think 'we' are nuts! "Look at that fellah coming by, he's an inland desert man ... now that's black! He nearly purple ... strong juju that fellah ... he makes ME look white ... don't look at him as he passes." < eyes down … he passes … eyes up> “and white fellas say we are all one Aboriginie ?” <shakes his head> THEY know they are not all one people. They know they are one people spiritually, in the ‘dreaming jig-saw puzzle of Australian native spirituality’ (my term, it isn’t a puzzle for them ), they are all one people in a modern social/political context and hence lies the issue – political intrusion into Anthropology. Uncle Link, a Budjalung ( central east coast) Elder told me this story; There was a big gathering at Uluru in the heartland, people came from all over, including OS (native American, Inuit, Maori, etc). The local Elders organised things when they got there. One of the first things they did was put people in groups. Many where surprised that they made several different groups of people within the Australian Aboriginals. Some people were a bit upset as all the people that came in the bus with Uncle Link thought they would be together. He got moved into a group of people, some he knew where his relatives at Uluru but some he didn’t recognise, they examined him and told him who his parents and grandparents where, even though they hadn’t met him before … then they sub-grouped that group … people got to know each other and link up with previously unknown distant relatives after they talked and compared linage (and song-lines) etc. That was the point of the exercise. But link said one of the boys protested, he was being put in with a group of ‘strangers’ , the elders said, no, that is where you belong, the boy said, no, you made a mistake, you don’t understand, I am not Aboriginal, I am with Billy, over there, I am his mate from school, I just came with him for the trip … I am not Aboriginal, I am Indian. The Elders say, that’s right and this is where you belong. Uncle Link, who knows nothing of Anthropology said he thought the Elders had made a mistake, but when he looked closely he realised the boy looked EXACTLY like some of the Australian Aboriginals in that group, Some elders from that group sat the boy down and had a talk with him. I would have liked to have heard THAT conversation!

What a mess that Nungali made of that article ... ... he must have done it late at night, Surprised I didn't get down here and find :What on earth are YOU talking about I had to re-edit ...NOW it makes better sense.

Yep .... even in Australia, they were built by Chinese miners out of mining tailings. Oh! Where are those? What story? I know that some think part of the story of how they moved giant stone blocks up ramps and got them in place is hidden ... but I know some of that story and it isn't that hidden. Like lots of things in ancient Egypt ... you can see it if you look at it the right way

What on earth (on EARTH now ) is a human - oid ? I guess you mean human like? But not human (homo sapiens). I would have said homo - nid. The difference? hominid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae humanoid http://www.humanoid.nl/