Lataif

What form does a specific thought take in the Chi body . . . and where (?) Presumably we all agree that specific thoughts can affect the body and emotions significantly. Let's consider an example from "cognitive therapy". . . since that's one of the most definitive practical applications of it in western psychology. Let's say I'm angry because I'm thinking "John should have done such-and-such" . . . and he didn't do it. Bad, evil John. Bad, bad, bad. Cognitive therapy helps me realize that my absolutist thinking about John . . . doesn't have a lot of actual evidence to support it. And when I do realize that . . . my anger evaporates. So how does QiGong understand this (?) What specific form was the thought "John should have done such-and-such" taking in my Chi body (?) And where (?)

If this is along the lines suggested by Chia/Winn in "Taoist Series of Love" . . . I've been puzzled by the results of it , too. Chia/Winn call this practice cooling -- both to the head and more generally. But I don't find it so . . . when following the instructions as they give them. Their instructions for testicle breathing are similar to the big draw instructions: the Chi is directed up the governor channel. But I find that testicle breathing is only significantly cooling . . . when directed up the thrusting channel.

Update: I'm looking at various kinds of 3D images for conventional anatomy . . . to see which might be similar to what I imagine could be done for QiGong anatomy. What it would take (skills, costs . . .) to produce such QiGong images is the next question. I'm guessing that there's some basic 3D anatomy design software that could be adapted for the purpose . . .

Thanks (!) This is definitely worth looking into -- I'll chase down a copy of my own. I'm attaching one of your images specifically, to provide an example of the kind of questions/understanding they might offer us. There's apparently more than one way to access universal Chi ("Divine Energy" in the diagram) . . . or maybe more than one kind of Universal chi to access. I was at a Michael Winn workshop several weeks ago . . . in which he briefly discussed this same question I'm posing of multiple dimensions of reality in QiGong. His experience is that the lower dantien can be a "doorway" that opens to unlimited Universal Chi. Our three personal bodies apparently overlap (to some extent or another, at one time or another) the universal Chi body . . . just as they do each other. And there's apparently a specific connection between that Universal Body and the personal Chi body at the lower dantien . . . that acts as Winn's "doorway". Divine_Energy1.bmp

Sure . . . anything like that is helpful. Could you provide name of the book (?) And maybe scan and post one of the graphics that you've found to be especially insightful (?) Thanks . . .

I'm certainly continuing with this myself personally (and with my teachers) . . . and I'll gladly share my exploration of it here as long as there seems to be practical interest. If someone has graphics skills they'd be willing to contribute to model various possibilities . . . that would be great. If not, I'll be hiring someone from some place else to do it. A useful next step seems to me . . . to maybe start to consider what specific QiGong principles we might want to try to represent graphically. For example: the 3 bodies relationship between the 3 bodies the dantien relationship between dantien and the 3 bodies the Conception Vessel and Governing Vessel relationship between Vessels and chi body the physical organs relationship between chi body and physical organs accupuncture points relationship between accupuncture points and chi body relationship between accupuncture points and physical body universal chi field relationship between universal chi field and 3 dantien physical breathing process relationship between physical breathing process and chi body circulation of physical blood in physical body relationship between circulation of physical blood and circulation of chi in chi body chi storage locations in chi body relationship of physical organs to chi storage locations in chi body specific movements in physical body effect of specific movements in physical body on chi in chi body etc.

Okay. Fine. Good luck with that . . .

Yes, precisely . . . these are examples of TYPICAL graphical representations (rather than the kind I'd like to see). Although they also demonstrate how some . . . are better than others. Notice how the THIRD one . . . tries to represent how the 3 dantien are related to the 3 bodies . . . and the SECOND one does not.

Examples, for better or worse:

I'm always trying to further clarify and make explicit the understanding of Chi I've gained from various teachings and my own experience. Any comments/contributions would be appreciated. **** Chi apparently has two aspects: qualitative and quantitative. QUALITATIVE: Chi can have different "vibrations", higher or lower (like octanes of gasoline). Different qualities of Chi come from different sources (genetic, food, air, impressions) and are stored in different places. One quality of Chi can also be refined into another, higher quality by certain processes. And Chi can also be "multi-grade" (like raw air before it is processed) -- it has a combination of different qualities of Chi. ***** For each organ or process there is an ideal (most efficient) quality of Chi for its specific purpose. Each also uses an ideal QUANTITY of that particular quality of Chi. An "imbalance" of Chi in a specific organ/process can be either qualitative or quantitative or both: too much or too little of certain qualities of Chi. This is complicated by the fact that an organ or process can successfully use (although at a lesser efficiency) a lower or higher quality/quantity of Chi than is ideal. **** Generally unknown to me: (1) How many different qualities of Chi are there (?) (2) Which qualities originate where (?) (3) Which qualities are stored where (?) (4) Which organs/processes use which and in what quantity (?)

Hello. I find that different spiritual traditions . . . don't seem to map the same territory. And my suspicion is that no higher map of maps . . . is actually possible. Although Id love to be proven wrong. My primary practice in the past has been Sufism. It's strong (nearly 100%) in its understanding of the emotions . . . but weak in its understanding of the physical body. So I've begun studying Qigong. It, in turn, is strong in its understanding of the physical body . . . but weak in its understanding of emotions. Bottom line: I'd be interested to hear if anyone has come to any understanding of how the Lataif, specifically, pattern the physical body. I just don't see it clearly at all. If QiGong had a more well-articulated understanding of emotions . . . we could get from the Lataif to the emotions (via Sufism) . . . and then from the emotions to the physical body (via QiGong). But so far I haven't see anything like that . . . Thanks.

That sounds good . . . until you actually try to apply it specifically to the variety and subtlety of our emotions. For example: which element (and organ . . .) would be involved in the response to (and appreciation of . . .) the "Liebstod" from Wagner's "Tristan and Isolde" (?) And how is that response/appreciation similar to that evoked by the Everly Brothers' "Let It Be Me" . . . but subtly different from that of Dylan's "I Want You" (?) Sufism has specific answers to these kinds of questions. I haven't yet seen anything similar from Qigong . . .

Well, it depends . . . on which aspect of QiGong are you most interested in. Here are some of them: (1) for physical/emotional health (2) for martial arts (3) for spirituality (4) for sexuality (5) for socializing (6) for escapism Different teachers and teachings . . . are better/worse for each of them.

.

Wow. "Absolutely" different (?) Like in . . . completely, utterly, categorically . . . unrelated and unconnected (?)

Say . . . what (?) People do it all the time . . .

Lots of different questions here, to my mind. I'll address just one for starters. Unconditional love is NOT necessarily a good thing. Most unconditional love is of the impersonal, "cosmic consciousness" or "christ consciousness" kind. Have you ever had someone love you in that way . . . and felt that they weren't actually loving YOU specifically . . . at all (?) Happens a lot with "spiritual" types of people. I myself usually find it annoying . . . and even condescending or disrespectful to who I am. I'm sure I couldn't have been around Mother Theresa for more than 5 minutes without having to throw up an energetic shield to stop all that unconditional love messing with my conditional self and how I'm trying to live my conditional life. Look at it this way: can you say you are loving someone unconditionally . . . and that it's a good thing . . . if they don't FEEL it's a good thing (?) Serious spiritual trap . . .

I find that different spiritual traditions . . . don't seem to map the same territory. And my suspicion is that no higher "map of maps" . . . is actually possible. Although Id love to be proven wrong. My primary practice in the past has been Sufism. It's strong (nearly 100%) in its understanding of the emotions . . . but weak in its understanding of the physical body. So I've begun studying Qigong. It, in turn, is strong in its understanding of the physical body . . . but weak in its understanding of emotions. Bottom line: I'd be interested to hear if anyone has come to any understanding of how the Lataif, specifically, pattern the physical body. I just don't see it clearly at all. If QiGong had a more well-articulated understanding of emotions . . . we could get from the Lataif to the emotions (via Sufism) . . . and then from the emotions to the physical body (via QiGong). But so far I haven't see anything like that . . . Thanks.

Yes . . . but with a caveat. Let's consider an analogy (analogy time!!!! . . .). Let's imagine that each of our lives is like a canvas. Now QiGong . . . is certainly really good at clearing the canvas. Or maybe even . . . clearing it and leaving it with a nice, clean, shiny primer. Great (!) But what if . . . we don't want to just clear the canvas (?) What if . . . we want to make a painting (?) What if . .. we want to pick and choose certain colors in our unique and individual way (?) We want them to be clean and un-muddied colors . . . but we still want the colors to be there (!) QiGong . . . doesn't seem so good at that (in my experience). It's one difference between Eastern and Western sensibility/understanding . . . about what the purpose of our individual lives might be. Michael Winn's perspective on QiGong (for example) . . . partially addresses this.

Wa ‘alaykum al-salaam. Generally speaking, the Lataif are understood by Sufism to be the underlying differentiated qualities that pattern all of reality. Specifically (and closest to our own human experience), they pattern emotions. Every human emotion can definitely be understood as having its ultimate source in one or more Lataif. What puzzles me . . . is how the Lataif pattern physiological processes specifically. In general terms, it's possible to identify certain Lataif in the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems . . . in the physiological components of sexuality . . . and so on. But what the conscious/intentional interface might be between specific Lataif . . . and specific physiological processes . . . is very unclear to me. I'm guessing . . . that maybe the Chi Body could be such an interface. The experience of the (general) Chi Body . . . and the experience of undifferentiated Presence (in which all the Lataif are implicit) . . . seem very similar to me. If I had some experience of the (general) Chi Body differentiating into specific qualities of Chi . . . then there'd be some hope of mapping them to the differentiated qualties of Presence (which are the Lataif). But I'm not sure (as I've said before) whether those maps actually overlap in that functional way . . . or not. It's very interesting . . . P.S. As I understand it, my transmission of the Lataif is third generation, from an order in Iran in the 1970s (probably Ni'matullāhī, although I can't say definitely . . .).