Lataif

What are some of the factors that determine how high or low the lower dantian turns out to be in a person (?) For example: Winn suggests that Women have historically had it higher (about at navel) . . . but now have it about the same as Men (typically 3 inches or so below navel). I've had a significant sexual component to my practice . . . and my lower dantian is just above the pubic bone.

Well, what can we do with me . . . if I ask Taoist teachers a question . . . and then doubt the motivation for their answer (?) It's a simple question: is circumcision an energetic disability in the practice of QiGong (?) Circumcision is definitely NOT traditional in Chinese culture. But when I ask Taoist teachers about it, I'm not confident that I get an honest answer. I mean . . . look at it from the teachers' viewpoint. American students have comparatively high rates of circumcision and there's nothing the teachers or the students can do about that . . . after the fact. So even it it's true that circumcision is an energetic disability . . . why admit it (?) It only discourages the students . . . and loses them as paying customers. What do people here say about this (?)

There's one thing that I can say with 100% confidence: traditional teachers are too often too clever about this . . . for their own good. Take Zen, for example. Japanese Zen is mostly a joke today. The best Zen teaching in the world is by Americans . . .

seiza

Anyone willing to listen to another attempt to interpret/understand Yang and Yin (?) I've been concentrating on that traditional characterization of Yang being "expanding" and Yin being "contracting" . . . and trying to find a way to make it work for me. My current re-interpretation of it is something like this: (1) there's Unity of things (universal or local)) (2) there's differentiation from that Unity into Multiplicity (Yang) (3) there's unification of the Multiplicity back into Unity (Yin) The difficulty with seeing this practically . . . has to do with the cycles of differentiation and unification (of which 5 elements is the working model): ** happening all over the place simultaneously ** interpenetrating one another ** with each having a different periodicity (one minute, 1 day, 1 year, 1 millennium, etc) ** and each at a different stages (1 thru 5) . So . . . at 10pm tonight, I myself may be almost stage 5 (Water) of my 24-hour sleep-awake cycle. At same time, if I'm 40 years old . . . I'm at stage 3 (Earth) of my 80 year life cycle. Meanwhile, since it's nearly Summer here. . . the seasons are nearly at stage 2 (Fire) of their 12 month cycle. And so on for ALL the things in this Universe (big and small) . . . each with its OWN cycle, periodicity, and stage . . . simultaneously interpenetrating one another. Does this interpretation work for anyone (?) Or any way it obviously doesn't work . . . for re-interpreting any specific traditional perspective of Qigong (?) Thanks . . .

Our bodily sensations (whatever form they are manifesting, which can come to include thoughts, emotions, memories, etc.) are always present. So if we practice constantly returning our attention to them . . . we're constantly returning to the present.

This thread seems to have a very specific and narrow understanding of "meditation". There are meditation traditions in which one is meditating constantly in all waking hours, whatever one is doing. There's never an overload . . .

Okay, good. That's Yin/Yang PROCESS. Now how do you understand Yin/Yang STATE (?) What sense exactly does it make to say that some state is "too" Yin or Yang (?) Thanks . ..

It seems to me that for the purported theory of Yin and Yang to work in Taoism (if it ultimately does work) . . . it must be accompanied by a theory of Yin and Yang's "periodicity". How can you interpret something as being "too" Yin . . . or "too" Yang . . . unless you know the period in which it is "supposed to" be either one, the other, or balanced (?) And how, indeed, do you ever . . . know that (?) I'm not satisfied with the Taoist sound bytes I've heard about this to date. Like those that imply, for instance, that equilibrium of Yin and Yang . . . is always the be-all, end-all, ultimate, and absolute good. Over what period of time (?) It might be "good" in some cosmic sense, for example, that entropy is leading the Universe toward the balanced Yin of uniform space. But for my part, I'm really pretty happy that our little corner of it here in the Milky Way is, for the time being, out of balance in favor of the Yang that manifests as this planet we're living on. Another example: If you're ill . . . how long are you supposed to be ill (?) How do you know that . . . before you start thinking about interfering (?) Or consider ends and means: how much effort to achieve a certain end . . . is too much (?) How do you know that (?) Who decides the period in which you balance the end and the means (?) Am I supposed to have my personal energy balanced . . . at the end of each day (?) The end of each month (?) By the end of my life (?) How do I know which it is (?) If I'm very tired at the end of today . . . does that mean I'm imbalanced . . . today (?) Or does what I'm doing maybe legitimately take two days . . . and I'll only be unbalanced if I'm still tired at the end of that period (?) So tell me, please . . . what specific aspect of Taoist teaching has to do with this perception of the periodicity of Yin and Yang (?)

Anyone care to share what default QiGong practice they are currently working with . . . in everyday, moment-to-moment situations (?) Driving the car, working at computer terminal, walking down the street, etc . . . I myself am working with a version of "skin breathing" . . .

Thanks for your goodwill, meet-me-where-I'm-coming-from response. Where in Taoist training is this "relativity" specifically addressed -- if at all (?) For example, in the Zen tradition (with which I am more familiar) . . . the cultivation of spontaneous, non-intellectual, "inner sensing" and action . . . is developed, in part, by Koan study. But Zen typically doesn't spend any time on the kind of understanding that Taoism provides with Yin/Yang theory. For example . . . Zen doesn't offer any detailed, practical understanding of processes in the physical body. So I'm wondering: how do we retain the advantages of the more "linear" Yin/Yang theory/practice in Taoism . . . when we're considering questions (such as I've been describing) where "holistic, non-linear" Zen theory/practice seems required (?) Can we synthesize the two . . . or not (?) The analogy that repeatedly comes to my mind when pondering this . . . is how Newtonian mechanics is a perfectly adequate perspective for almost anything you'd want to do (build bridges, fly airplanes, etc) . . . as long as you're not doing it at a level where Quantum mechanics or Relativity are required. But Newtonian mechanics can be clearly/completely articulated as a limited case of Relativity. What might it take to do the same for Taoism and Zen . . . (?)

My state is more Yin from one perspsective . . . and more Yang from another. Yes, I understand that -- thanks. What I'm asking is: which perspective do I use . . . to decide (for example) if I need to do adjust my state (?)

Well . . . no actual answer to my question so far (?) Let me repeat it, just to be clear. Let' say I'm feeling tired this morning. Apparent conclusion: I'm feeling Yin today. But what "period" am I using to make that conclusion (?) What if I was even more tired yesterday (?) Apparent conclusion then: I'm feeling (more) Yang today (than yesterday). But wait. What if yesterday was only day last week that I was tired and I was really energetic (Yang) other days (?) New apparent conclusion: I'm feeling (more) Yin today than (last week as a whole). And so on . . . Which am I -- Yin or Yang (?) Which period do I use to "calculate" it . . . and what specific aspect of Taoist teaching has to do with this calculation (?) I'm not insisting that there is no such calculation possible -- I just want someone to explain to me where Taoism discusses it. Yin and Yang are useful practical processes to imagine . . . at least some of the time (conditional on a period). But if the period in which we consider their action is never objective . . . then Yin and Yang don't seem to me to have the foundational metaphysical always quality that Taoism seems to accord them. Maybe I can attune myself to other (?) processes . . . that are more fundamental . . . and that would include Yin and Yang within them.

Alternatively . . . what is the "sample size" for considering Yin and Yang (?) Let's say you have 10 people. One of them is screaming at the top of his lungs . . . and the other 9 are calm. Do you say that the one . . . is too Yang (?) Or do you say that the ten, as a whole . . . are balanced (?) How do you decide the sample size . . . in any given situation (?) If you say "both" . . . that really means the same as "neither" . . . doesn't it (?) So where are you with the purported "theory" of Yin and Yang . . . then (?)

Does anyone know of any specific Taoist teaching that addresses in detail the equivalent of "remote perception" (?) I'm thinking not only of Space . . . but also (especially) of Time. Presumably it would be understood as accessing the Universal Chi Body . . . that extends throughout all of Space and Time. Western spiritual traditions seem to be a lot more interested in that. Even the Catholic Church has the equivalent doctrine of the Communion of Saints . . .

I was thinking this evening how a lot of our inability to fully attune ourselves to Qigong principles is due to the fact that we have a weak capacity to visualize things in multiple dimensions. Typically, we try to visualize them 2 dimensionally -- and distort them in doing so. For example: our 3 bodies (physical/jing, energetic/chi, and spiritual/shen) are typically portrayed one "behind" the other . . . or one "inside" the other -- because that's the easiest way to do it in 2 dimensions (on a piece of paper, for instance). In fact, the energetic and spiritual bodies are more-or-less co-terminous with the physical body -- each having 3 dimensions of its own that overlap the 3 dimensions of the physical body. That's hard to visualize and hard to portray visually. (Not so easy to talk about, either . . .). The energetic body, for example, is not "inside" the physical body -- as you typically see in diagrams. And "chi" does not circulate "in" the physical body. They're in the same "space" . . . but at different levels/dimensions. And the 2 dimensions of the physical body and the energetic body overlap the same space and mutually interact . . . but they are not "connected" equally the same way at all points. For example: acupuncture works precisely because there are certain specific points where the physical and energetic bodies, occupying the same "space", are especially connected . . . so that the insertion of a needle in the physical body produces a reaction in the energetic body. The acupuncture points are not "inside" the physical body. They are points "between" the coterminous physical body and energetic body where the bodies overlap/connect in a certain way. There are many such relationships between the physical body and energetic body (and the spiritual body) . . . that we could understand better if we could visualize them more accurately. Bottom line to this post: I'm surprised not to see more/better graphical representations of QiGong principles -- maybe, for example, using computer graphics and animation. If anyone is interested in pursuing such an effort as part of their practice (along the lines suggested above) . . . I'd welcome the opportunity to collaborate on it.

Or maybe you mean . . . "why" would I want to do it . . . in the sense of "what good would it be" (?) Well . . . the same good (for example) that is typically associated with "prayers" for the well being of others (past, present, and future). The Universal Chi Body . . . presumably underlies/mediates such possibilities.

Well . . . it might reasonably be understood as a case of my wanting to do better and with more understanding . . . something I'm already doing (but not very well and with not a lot of understanding). You don't sometimes feel yourself . . . that you're perceiving another time and place . . . other than the present (?) I mean: even the idea of "memory" is open to an interpretation in which it is NOT a "recreation" of a past experience . . . but a re-perception of it. And then there's "memory" of the future . . . which is even harder to interpret strictly as a "recreation". The Universal Chi Body . . . presumably underlies/mediates such possibilities.

In a separate forum . . . I was advised that in QiGong the 5 Elements are used to interpret emotions. Here is my reply: "That sounds good . . . until you actually try to apply it specifically to the variety and subtlety of our emotions. For example: which element (and organ . . .) would be involved in the response to (and appreciation of . . .) the "Liebstod" from Wagner's "Tristan and Isolde" (?) And how is that response/appreciation similar to that evoked by the Everly Brothers' "Let It Be Me" . . . but subtly different from that of Dylan's "I Want You" (?) Sufism has specific answers to these kinds of questions. I haven't yet seen anything similar from Qigong . . ."

Sure. Specific experiential example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUxt56XOV3A (Cick on the title to go to the written explanation . . .).

Sufism concentrates on a level of reality that is apparently unknown to Taoism and QiGong -- the level of the Lataif. Sufism understands the Lataif to be the ultimate underlying qualities that pattern all of manifest reality. Specifically for humans . . . they pattern our experience of human emotions. QiGong's equivalent perspective on emotions (that they are patterned by combinations of the 5 Elements) . . . seems to me too general and vague. Music provides a comprehensive means for testing/exploring any understanding of emotions . . . because all emotions are apparently represented in Music. So for each and every piece of Music we ask the question: what specific emotion(s) is it eliciting in the experience of the listener (?) Sufism has specific answers: the Lataif. It doesn't seem to me that Qigong has specific answers -- only vague generalities. I have yet to see anyone explain the experience of a piece of Music in QiGong terms by demonstrating how it combines such and such a specific combination of the 5 Elements. But I'd be very, very glad to be proven wrong in that conclusion . . .

I feel it's good to have a multi-dimensional map of some kind like this. I have something equivalent. One doesn't HAVE to have one . . . but to each his own way of practise.

Ah. Good -- thanks (!) I'm going to try to download the Medical QiGong book (otherwise . . . $119 on Amazon). The Daoist magic books . . . seem like a little career in their own right (unavailable on Amazon): Daoist Magical Hand Seal Training: Training in Daoist Magic From the Zheng Yi School of Ancient Chinese Mysticism... by Jerry Alan Johnson (2006) Magical Tools and the Daoist Altar: Training in Daoist Magic From the Zheng Yi School of Ancient Chinese Mysticism... by Jerry Alan Johnson (2006) Absorbing the Riches of the Profound: Training in Daoist Magic From the Zheng Yi School of Ancient Chinese Mysticism... by Jerry Alan Johnson (2006) Daoist Exorcism: Encounters with Sorcerers, Ghosts, Spirits, and Demons: Training in Daoist Magic From the Zheng... by Jerry Alan Johnson (2007) Daoist Weather Magic and Feng Shui: Training in the Daoist Magic From the Zheng Yi School of Ancient Chinese Mysticism... by Jerry Alan Johnson (2007) Daoist Mineral Magic: Training in Daoist Magic From the Zheng Yi School of Ancient Chinese Mysticism by Jerry Alan Johnson (2006) Daoist Plant and Animal Magic: Training in Taoist Magic From the Zheng Yi School of Ancient Chinese Mysticism by Jerry Alan Johnson (2007)

Yes, that's contentious/problematical. Reality apparently unfolds/descends: Unity==>. . . ==>Neidan==>Neigong==>Waidan==>Waigong. So from one perspective/method we find ourselves at Waigong . . . and we want to return/ascend to Unity by the reverse route: Waigong==>Waidan==>Neigong==>Neidan==> . . .Unity. But from another perspective/method . . . we want to emulate the original unfolding/descending. We break into the middle of the Chain of Being (by any of a number of methods) . . . and then re-create that unfolding within ourselves. Each probably has its strengths and weaknesses . . . for different individuals.

Right. I'm adopting this until further notice . . . and I'll just try to "locate" or "translate" what others are talking about within it.