nestentrie

I like this first part. Apprehension (a shade of terror), recognises that the ox was once a poweful beast capable of trampling and killing a man. The system of knots and cartilage represent the working system of that power. The butcher, apprehensive about what he wants, harmonises his own system (that is not entirely built for the purpose his mind has) with that of the ox. Amazingly, the Tao shows him what both his mind and body seemed not able to do together alone from Tao. Maybe it's magic, I dunno, but what else it has to say, namely about passions, is certainly cause for pause.

52 (The Tao) which originated all under the sky is to be considered as the mother of them all. When the mother is found, we know what her children should be. When one knows that he is his mother's child, and proceeds to guard (the qualities of) the mother that belong to him, to the end of his life he will be free from all peril. Let him keep his mouth closed, and shut up the portals (of his nostrils), and all his life he will be exempt from laborious exertion. Let him keep his mouth open, and (spend his breath) in the promotion of his affairs, and all his life there will be no safety for him. The perception of what is small is (the secret of clear- sightedness; the guarding of what is soft and tender is (the secret of) strength. Who uses well his light, Reverting to its (source so) bright, Will from his body ward all blight, And hides the unchanging from men's sight. James Legge trans. This is a kind of karmic thing.

Ok. My serious answer to this? What does one need to be known for? What would one have to commit to to secure that renown? And if renown can't be caught, where would one stop before the illness of this drive interferes? What are the pleasures we could conscionably renounce (if at all we could) to prevent ill consequences? To this point, what would one not do to remain amiciable with natural good order so that we could enjoy peace of mind? Or, what order may we prefer other than the natural (and is it plausible to assume this inferred order is higher than tao)? And finally, how would we act knowing that agency is empty and that Tao is indifferent to the wants of personal recognition? Most people are all for the good, and yet step over the good to be known (above others) as the one who kept the good. Simply live with the good, and keep the honour that knows not to judge you for doing good (Tao).

I Ching (yijing) seems like quite the dense and impressive thing that's full of observation and insight, but for someone not really interested in divination, and would prefer to look at it from another perspective, what would consumers here say about the general value and import of the thing? It really does seem a worthwhile study, however with the density of it, the general implication of what one might learn is more than a little opaque to a non initiate like me. So I suppose I start with the most basic question: what is it? What is the most percipient thing about it that one could say? And are there things to learn about it that don't directly invoke the need to use it as a divining tool? Even general comments might help clear the fog for me on this. I have an interest in the Bagua, which as I understand it are the 8 Trigrams: 乾 Qián ☰ 兌 Duì ☱ 離 Lí ☲ 震 Zhèn ☳ 巽 Xùn ☴ 坎 Kǎn ☵ 艮 Gèn ☶ 坤 Kūn ☷ Furthering what I understand (though really only nominally) is that these Trigrams relate to Wu Xing (something I have great interest in), and are also used in feng shui. I suppose somewhere between those two things is where my interest is piqued, yet what have they got to do with yijing? And why can my google skills not spare me this confusion? And speaking of google, I suppose brings up the chief reason I'm composing this thread. Barring getting recommendations on books (because I'm poor and can't afford them), where does one begin with the internet in this area of study? What does one avoid? I see different things in pictures to do with the bagua. The aspect I'm most keenly interested in is how it can be said that these Trigrams relate to things like relationship and marriage, family and past, career, and fame. That there is an organisational aspect to it is fascinating. Is this the type of thing yijing illuminates? I've tried numerous times to read translations of the commentaries on the I Ching and it's all sort of "yielding to the river: good time to plant crops" or somesuch or other (forgive my crude insenstivity; just trying to impress my exasperation), giving what seems to be (as all the psychics will probably say is obvious) advice in prognostication. Is there though more general observation to be found in it? I'm vaguely aware that the trigrams and hexagrams came about rather independently, (albeit, not without conscious synergy) but what's the core philosophy? If i'm not satisfied that I can learn about yijing without divination, can I research Bagua and leave out the Yijing? More questions that I know what to do with or phrase properly. Thanks for listening.

Is this a test? I don't think I brought my proper coloured pencils.

I'd give up cheese.

I don't think one needs to worry that there truly are stupid insignificants and that the author is calling them out as such and giving a final judgement. What's important is that at any time we, anyone, could fall into the trap of being stupid cattle. . What if it's just a set of attitudes? It's possible for anyone to be an obstinate meat-lump from time to time, and yet that same meat-lump would have it that others recognise their Te (for the good or bad). I think one could read the text from the point of view that it's drawing out a sense of shame. Do you want to be a person of Tao? A sage? 'Don't be of the herd!' Look with your eyes, sure, but be aware that your sight doesn't depend on them. Use your ears for hearing, but hear the truth while understanding that it's not your ears that are telling you that truth. As for ritual; it's the same lesson. Just because you can prefer to do something in a predefined way doesn't mean there is something inherently meaningful in that order. Just because we can say 'there are 25 types of people' and we order them into rankings doesn't mean there's an inherent truth to that and that we should hang our pride on it. It becomes like work in that sense, and while i'm reiterating the scheme, work is lower than ritual. Is it one's duty to work? Is ritual dutiful also (and yet higher than work)? Engender Te; be of Tao; the rest just falls away. Engender what is true now; Tao will complete it for tomorrow. I do think you can take or leave this chapter. The shame need not take from your relief.

Don't mean to sound Buddhist, but it's attachment.

Daeluin, I've read what you've written. I don't mean to sound flippant, but this is going to take me a while to absorb. I can say though, that your treatment has been considerate and thourough. Thank you. Give me a few days; I should like to think that I'll come back at this with gusto.

Yeah I have checked that thread out. A little hard to follow, though I will check out some of the links (which I haven't so far done). I think I would only keep spewing out the same question: can I learn about the hexagrams without having to deal with the whole load of hexagrams? If so, you got any websites where i could start?

I did see a couple of places where you showed that. Pretty fascinating stuff. However, for me, it was a case two things I don't understand coming together into something I'd have no hope to grasp. At least, not with my current skillset. Maybe I'll be asking you about it in the future.

Why should I care about a student?

Across more than a couple of people's posts lies the answer to this i think. It's one of times I wish that a thread could be editorially 'taken over' and summarised for all the best points before everything just starts repeating itself. All I think I could add is that anger is need of relief, where hatred needs to be satisfied. Not only satisfied but measured against one's pride. Natural pride is effortless and smooth. Hatred co-opting it is coarse and often nasty with sharp points of punctuation. 4The Tao is (like) the emptiness of a vessel; and in our employment of it we must be on our guard against all fulness. How deep and unfathomable it is, as if it were the Honoured Ancestor of all things! We should blunt our sharp points, and unravel the complications of things; we should attemper our brightness, and bring ourselves into agreement with the obscurity of others. How pure and still the Tao is, as if it would ever so continue! I do not know whose son it is. It might appear to have been before God. J.Legge

Hmm. What a rubbish thread.

A name, once adopted to symbolise, represent, or stand in for something else becomes something that can be viewed or used as something else entirely. WIth our economy of the symbols of tao we are never quite dealing with tao itself and are therefore separated. Even action (when viewed as an event) becomes separate. Much hearing of the many events leads to a poverty that is disconnected from the one event. Much learning brings the many errors of hearing and misdeeds caused by separation to the fore to where we grieve for them. So the author says 'reject sagehood; reject the prescriptions for the many events, and the people will naturalise'. Aspiration can never replace inspiration. Inspired stillness can't be defeated.

I think this is the best description i've heard. WIth so much of what often feels like only implication, this remark cuts to the core of it.

Yes, it is. I realised my mistake later, but to my shame didn't get back to the post before you (someone) noticed! My bad. Heh.

Sounds good.

My take on the original question is that the return is the full maturation of the organism. I don't have it on any authority, but it's been how i've been thinking about it. In wu xing, water is given a name/title/description of 'drilling'. And in chapter 8 we have this: It's my take that water is always trying (or doing by not trying) to reach the lowest place. From birth to about 30 there's a constant process of water descending, and the organism 'drilling' down to reach the water. Roots need to drink and our body's (mammilian bodies) have roots just like plants. I don't know what those roots are, but we feed and replenish in a similar way. Fulfilling the appointed end is it to have roots that reach to the pits (or lowest points) of the body. Fulfilling the appointed end is having roots that feed from the water in the most complete way possible (as up to this point the body is still growing both to the pinnacles and the pits). So, in this way the return is rest. It's the orgranism/person in the position where they don't have to struggle and exert themselves to root themselves. From Chuang Tzu Lieh Tzu: The appointed end is the fully mature organsim entering the beginning of old age. EDIT: Fixed misattribution of quoted text.

I'm interested to see what comes of this sub-forum.

http://www.crispinsartwell.com/taoteching.htm

71 To want to agree and yet also acknowledge that we will not always be accepted is the highest preference. Meanwhile, to not acknowledge, and yet still need that we could secure belief is but corrupted virtue. It is by being apprehensive at the thought of the latter condition that the Sage should be preserved from it. The sage shall have not the corruption. He acknowledges the pain that might be inseperable from it, and therefore will not take it. 71 To want to accept and yet also believe that we shall not always be agreed with is the highest preference. Meanwhile, to not believe, and yet still need that we might secure acknowledgement is but corrupted superiority. It is by being apprehensive at the thought of the latter condition that the Sage would be preserved from it. The Sage will have not the corruption. He believes that pain could be inseperable from it, and so therefore cannot take it. 71 To want to believe and yet also accept that we may not always be acknowledged is the highest preference. Meanwhile, to not accept, and yet still need that we should secure agreement is but corrupted excellence. It is by being apprehensive at the thought of the latter condition that the Sage could be preserved from it. The Sage can have not the corruption. He accepts the pain that would be inseperable from it, and therefore will not take it. 71 To want to acknowledge and yet also agree that we cannot always be believed is the highest preference. Meanwhile, to not agree, and still need that we would secure acceptance is but corrupted beauty. It is by being apprehensive at the thought of the latter condition that the Sage might be preserved from it. The Sage may not have the corruption. He agrees that the pain of it should be inseperable from it, and so therefore shall not take it. Take your pick...

I hear what you're saying about feeling capable. Question: do you feel that you would be recognised for this capability by others? Would it be important?

Self-realisation. Introspection in general. They're not folly. And the negativity does need to be addressed. I can easily accept that it's life changing. So it's not as if I would denigrate your attitude or your effort. Or your achievement for that matter. I'm happy that you've found the right perspective. I struggle with addiction too, and suppose I haven't come to the proper self-realistion of it. I'm a drinker and a smoker and have a past with marijuana use. I drink alcohol because I can't smoke weed anymore. When I was 21 I had drug induced psychosis which followed with a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Any time I touch the stuff (even now at 32) it's almost immediate psychotic paranoia (and the rest). From diagnosis out, I've been a socially anxious mess. No motivation to get a job; too sensitive to their pressures to keep them. My case may be different, but I have experience with introspection and the idea of 'tomorrow i'm going to succeed'. That the longest I've ever held a full time job was for 7 consecutive months; that I go years without a job and a decent income; that I am living with my parents at 32; these are the stuffs for deep introspection and soul searching. I just don't buy that I need to be righteous about it. I dunno. Dunno what further to say. At times my my diagnosis (and my past) is like a trophy. Other times I have deep shame. With being in the mental health system there is a degree of learned helplessness about it. And family, doing their best to 'keep educated' about it, and with sincere compassion for you, tend to reinforce setup. (It doesn't help that for years I spent my time in online mental health chatrooms where I 'learnt' whole new ways to excuse myself of any wrong doing). But the need to have good relations with people never quits. On that point I am in deep sychrony with you. I just maintain that it all should be spontaneous. Too much of anything is bad. I hope you're keeping well.

This is seems pretty thoughtful on the surface to me; the idea that one can take stock of their wrongs and make contiguous effort to amend is pretty poetic and attractive. However, I'm not sure I can accept we're capable of tallying up this kind of thing. It seems to me earnesty, while definitely being an effort toward the good, is far most effectual when it's spontaneous. More than spontaneous: responsive. Further, responsive kindness (whether reciporical or not) is the bond that ties earnesty to the good. Anything else is just getting lost in what we prefer. 'Do I believe this? Do I accept the implications?' These depend, maybe for today, on what we want; for today is looking toward tomorrow and tommorrow is possibility. Tomorrow, however, me may not want to savour the lingering taste of our want from the previous day. Tommorow we may prefer a different taste altogether. This of course should beg the question 'how can one be earnest if one's preferences change from day to day?' The answer is need. Frankly, counting up what we believe against what we don't accept; counting up what we shall put forward as a plan to carry out the next day; it's all preference. I would prefer to be kind, and I would want to be kind when the situation needs it. Kindness is not something i could store up for the right occasion or distrubute both evenly and as I please. Kindness has no plan. It will not look to the clock waiting for the appointment, it will not wait on the email, and it certainly won't say 'no, look, i'd prefer if you came over tomorrow because there's a kindness that i am developing for you'. Paraphrasing Lao Tzu: Heaven and Earth will not act with any presumption to be Righteous; they will, however, deal with things as the dogs of grass could be dealt with. Kindness will not presume to act either in any way that could prove Righteous; it can deal between people how people will deal with the dogs of grass. Allow me to compare the space between heaven and earth to a bellows: 'Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power; 'Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more. Much speech to swift exhaustion lead we see; you inner being gaurd, and keep it free. 'Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power... Daily introspection may prove for that day illuminating, but as a plan toward future righteousness it can only end in exhaustion. Keep earnest, by all means, just don't expect that kindness, mercy, honesty and trust are going to play along. Not without losing that earnesty. Not without losing humility, faith and sincerity. And it's not that I would dismiss the whole idea as folly. Earnesty, sincerity, humility and faith are powerful agents, and have need of their own. However, they are only too, to be focused on the moment. So again, be earnest in what you declare to believe but believe it for the person now. Believe it for your own person now. If there are things to reject, or things to not accept, these are going to be of the moment too and will only be of advantage when, and if they come into contact with their subjects. 'Your inner being guard, and keep it free' i say.