nestentrie

And oh, the smelling of one's own farts may be swift in it's apprehension: 'oh yeah, i had a good meal yesterday, i remember the experience well', but it is in the dwelling of hunger that the fruit can be found. And well all know real fruit is better than consuming one's own shit. (Why did I need to be so crass? Dunno dude, when you're on a roll....) EDIT: Vote with your clickers... If this post gets a like I will immediately delete it!

Yeah, it's circular logic where an arse pretends its sphincter is the mouth of the person and that it could somehow have an effect on what the person comsumes (and therefore passes). I could of course exericise oversight with that comment and retract it for the common good of good taste, but I feel the same frustrataion, believe me. I too wanna understand things, like the next new ager, but I'd like to understand it as i'm capable of understanding it, not just some hippy omm like mantra. I like you believe (for my part) that there are differences between people.

Just interpretations... Verse 38 really gets me thinking

73 He whose boldness appears in his daring to be Righteous in spite of the laws is forceably opposed and demonised (or put to death?); he whose boldness appears in his not daring to do so abides and lives on. Of these two cases the one appears to be advantageous, and the other to be injurious. But When Heaven's anger smites a man, Who the cause shall truly scan? On this account the Facilitating feel a difficulty in what to accept (in the former case). It is the way of Heaven not to strive, and yet it skilfully maintains; not to speak, and yet it is skilful in obtaining a reply; does not call, and yet men come to it and accept it of themselves. Its demonstrations are quiet, and yet its plans are skilful and believable. The meshes of the net of Heaven are large; far apart, but letting nothing escape. -- 73 He whose boldness appears in his daring to be Benelovent in spite of the laws is taxed and penalised (or put to death?); he whose boldness appears in his not daring to do so thrives and lives on. Of these two cases the one appears to be advantageous, and the other to be injurious. But When Heaven's anger smites a man, Who the cause shall truly scan? On this account the Merciful feel a difficulty in what to agree with (in the former case). It is the way of Heaven not to strive, and yet it skilfully overcomes; not to speak, and yet it is skilful in obtaining a reply; does not call, and yet men come to it and agree with it of themselves. Its demonstrations are quiet, and yet its plans are skilful and knowable. The meshes of the net of Heaven are large; far apart, but letting nothing escape. -- 73 He whose boldness appears in his daring to be Proprietous in spite of the laws is ignored and quietly sanctioned (or put to death?) ; he whose boldness appears in his not daring to do so peaceably lives on. Of these two cases the one appears to be advantageous, and the other to be injurious. But When Heaven's anger smites a man, Who the cause shall truly scan? On this account the Sincere feel a difficulty in what to know (in the former case). It is the way of Heaven not to strive, and yet it skilfully avoids; not to speak, and yet it is skilful in obtaining a reply; does not call, and yet men come to it and know it for and of themselves. Its demonstrations are quiet, and yet its plans are skilful and agreeable. The meshes of the net of Heaven are large; far apart, but letting nothing escape. -- 73 He whose boldness appears in his daring to be Wise in spite of the laws is defamed and ostracised (or is put to death?); he whose boldness appears in his not daring to do so admirably lives on. Of these two cases the one appears to be advantageous, and the other to be injurious. But When Heaven's anger smites a man, Who the cause shall truly scan? On this account the Honest feel a difficulty in what to believe (in the former case). It is the way of Heaven not to strive, and yet it skilfully develops; not to speak, and yet it is skilful in obtaining a reply; does not call, and yet men come to it and believe in it of themselves. Its demonstrations are quiet, and yet its plans are skilful and acceptable. The meshes of the net of Heaven are large; far apart, but letting nothing escape.

72 When the people do not apprehend what they ought to be apprehensive about, that which is their great dread will come on them. Let them not thoughtlessly indulge themselves in their intellectual life; let them not act as if weary of their nature that their life depends on. It is by adopting natural belief, belief not predicated on when others will accept what we can do, but where they will. Belief that includes the 'us', and not belief that feigns the merely 'this'. This is how we free ourselves from the indulgence in the intellectual and be rid of the weariness that comes with it. Therefore the Kind, in the maintenance of inclusive belief have this understanding of themselves, but do not parade their Righteousness; love, but do not appear to set a value on their own lot. Thus, they put the latter alternative away and make choice of the former. -- 72 When the people do not apprehend what they ought to be apprehensive about, that which is their great dread will come on them. Let them not thoughtlessly indulge themselves in their intellectual life; let them not act as if weary of their nature that their life depends on. It is by adopting natural knowledge, knowledge not predicated on when others should agree with what we do, but where they should. Knowledge that includes the 'us', and not knowledge that suits the merely 'this'. This is how we free ourselves from the indulgence in the intellectual and be rid of the weariness that comes with it. Therefore the Merciful, in the overcoming of disputatious knowledge have this understanding of themselves, but do not parade their Benevolence; love, but do not appear to set a value on their own lot. Thus, they put the latter alternative away and make choice of the former. -- 72 When the people do not apprehend what they ought to apprehensive about, that which is their great dread will come on them. Let them not thoughtlessly indulge themselves in their intellectual life; let them not act as if weary of their nature that their life depends on. It is by adopting natural agreement, agreement not predicated on when others know what should be our inclination, but where that knowledge applies. Agreement that includes the 'us', and not agreement that flatters the merely 'this'. This is how we free ourselves from indulgence in the intellectual and be rid of the weariness that comes with it. Therefore the Trusting, in the avoiding of controversy and abiding in what is true have this understanding of themselves, but do not parade their Propriety; love, but do not appear to set a value on their own lot. Thus, they put away the latter alternative and make chioce of the former. -- 72 When the people do not apprehend what they ought to be apprehesive about, that which is their great dread will come on them. Let them not thoughtlessly indulge themselves in their intellectual life; let them not act as if weary of their nature that their life depends on. It is by adopting natural acceptance, acceptance not predicated on when others can believe what we will do, but where they can. Acceptance that includes 'us', and not acceptance that panders the merely 'this'. This is how we free ourselves from indulgence in the intellectual and be rid of the weariness that comes with it. Therefore the Honest, in the development of what is readily acceptable have this understanding of themselves, but do not parade their Wisdom; love, but do not appear to set a value on their own lot. Thus, they put the latter alternative away and make choice of the former. -- ^This has been edited.

71 To believe, and yet be aware of all that we don't accept is the highest attainment; to not believe and yet accept anyway is a disease. It is simply by being pained at the thought of having this disease that we are preserved from it. The Kind have not this disease. They know the pain that would be inseperable from it, and therefore they do not have it. -- 71 To know and yet be aware of all that we don't agree with is the highest attainment; to not know and yet agree anyway is a disease. It is simply by being pained at the thought of having this disease that we are preserved from it. The Merciful have not this disease. They know the pain that would be inseperable from it, and therefore they do not have it. -- 71 To agree and yet be aware of all that we don't know is the highest attainment; to not agree and yet claim to know anyway is a disease. It is simply by being pained at the thought of having this disease that we are preserved from it. The Trusting have not this disease. They know the pain that would be inseperable from it, and therefore they do not have it. -- 71 To accept and yet be aware of all that we don't believe is the highest attainment; to not accept and yet still believe anyway is a disease. It is simply by being pained at the thought of having this disease that we are preserved from it. The Honest have not this disease. They know the pain that would be inseperable from it, and therefore they do not have it.

We all have the happiness of attaining the Tao, even where we fail, for someone else will keep it.

I wrote this little piece a few weeks ago for a blog that I'm umming and ahhing about maintaining. It's a sort of a blunt thing in the main, and almost has to be read cyclically for it to make proper sense. There also quite a few sharp points in it that could misconstrue the meaning, but I feel it's relevent to the conversation here so I'm sharing it (however imperfect it is). I had read this thread as it was developing but have to admit I was doing a lot of skimming. If I'd realised the confluence then I'd have reworked this to make it fit into the flow of the thread (addressing people's posts and whatnot), but considering the thread hasn't had life for a while (and i'm only rereading it now) I think I'll just post what I've written as is: The ACTIVE is to ask to be called and likewise respond when called to action. It is both pro-active and receptive. One can agree pro-actively (or posit that another must agree), believe pro-actively (or posit that another must believe), accept pro-actively (or posit that another must accept), and know pro-actively (or posit that another must know). One can also take it that another agrees before themself, that another believes before themself, that another accepts before themself, and that another knows things before oneself. Active receptivity is to receive these possibilities (and act accordingly). [To posit what another should agree with/believe/accept and know is to take up passive substrate. It is the HOW of the Pivot. Likewise taking what another has (what THEY agree with, what THEY believe in, what THEY accept, and what THEY know) is aslo acting with the passive substrate. This is also the HOW of the Pivot. (For the Wu Xing this is in part the Mother-Son Relationship.)] The NEUTER is to let what is be what it is. Neuter is to let be what should be/what can be/what will be/what is done be — without any deliberation or direct opposition. NEUTER is the Fulcrum around which things are achieved. NEUTUR is the present KARMA of the ACTIVE. Negative KARMA follows with the passive (and who’s substrate it belongs to). [The reason WHY we let be what is be is because what is achieved is good. If it is not good we feel that the immediate recourse of the ACTIVE should/can/will/does respond. We feel that in fact the ACTIVE has been called, even if it is out of the sequence of the promoting. (For the Wu Xing this is in part the Father-Nephew relationship.)] PASSIVE is to respond (or reflect), but not act in kind. Passive is to act in lesser fashion. Passive is THE Pivot. Passive is to wait on what kind of thing be asked (irrespective of agreement, belief, acceptance or knowledge), to wait on what kind of thing be called (irrespective of what the should, the can, the will or what does achieves), to wait on what kind of thing has been posited to have been achieved. It is to wait on whether something stands as it is or not. It is to to act (without acting) on what is to be that’s left to express itself by something else.

I hope that was some deliberate irony there (Doesn't it go that we aren't aware of our subconscious and that is why it's called that? )

There's delusion of memory: "Did I see the tree fall? I'm not sure... it seems that I did , but..." And there's delusion of motivation: "If a tree fell it's because I pushed it over. If there be any doubt I'll go over and push it over now"

I really am exposing my inexperience here, but I'd like to ask the forum for some further information on an area of Taoism that I would like to know more about. I've heard said that in Toaism there are 5 so called "Cardinal Virtues": Righteousness, Wisdom, Benevolence, Propriety, and Fidelity (I've also heard a different account that there are 8 virtues to be reckoned with). In the Tao Te Ching I can find mention of some of these. For instance with verse 38 (the beginning of the second part of the text): 38(Those who) possessed in highest degree the attributes (of the Tao) did not (seek) to show them, and therefore they possessed them (in fullest measure). (Those who) possessed in a lower degree those attributes (sought how) not to lose them, and therefore they did not possess them (in fullest measure). (Those who) possessed in the highest degree those attributes did nothing (with a purpose), and had no need to do anything. (Those who) possessed them in a lower degree were (always) doing, and had need to be so doing. (Those who) possessed the highest benevolence were (always seeking) to carry it out, and had no need to be doing so. (Those who) possessed the highest righteousness were (always seeking) to carry it out, and had need to be so doing. (Those who) possessed the highest (sense of) propriety were (always seeking) to show it, and when men did not respond to it, they bared the arm and marched up to them. Thus it was that when the Tao was lost, its attributes appeared; when its attributes were lost, benevolence appeared; when benevolence was lost, righteousness appeared; and when righteousness was lost, the proprieties appeared. Now propriety is the attenuated form of leal-heartedness and good faith, and is also the commencement of disorder; swift apprehension is (only) a flower of the Tao, and is the beginning of stupidity. Thus it is that the Great man abides by what is solid, and eschews what is flimsy; dwells with the fruit and not with the flower. It is thus that he puts away the one and makes choice of the other. http://sacred-texts.com/tao/taote.htm I can also surmise that the lessons of Fidelity are strewn throughout the text with one particulary powerful example in verse 81 (where in the translation I link 'Fidelity' as a term is interchanged with 'sincerity'): 81Sincere words are not fine; fine words are not sincere. Those who are skilled (in the Tao) do not dispute (about it); the disputatious are not skilled in it. Those who know (the Tao) are not extensively learned; the extensively learned do not know it. The sage does not accumulate (for himself). The more that he expends for others, the more does he possess of his own; the more that he gives to others, the more does he have himself. With all the sharpness of the Way of Heaven, it injures not; with all the doing in the way of the sage he does not strive. http://sacred-texts.com/tao/taote.htm In my grappling with google, when I search for these terms in relation to Toaism I find various commentaries on the Tao Te Ching, people's personal musings on Taoism in general, but no other (as far as I can see) official canon. So my question is: 'Is there a classic text, or a school of Taoism that includes these things? And where are these virtues are enshrined, apart from in the Tao Te Ching?' It's a topic I'm profoundly interested in so any help will be much appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks Daeluin. I will check this out. It's almost the same as I am doing myself. I am slowly working on 4 types (or sets) of virtues that all fit into the wu xing. A set for Agreement, a set for Knowledge, a set for Belief, and a set for Acceptance. It'll be interesting to see if it matches up or not, and if it doesn't where I might learn something and improve my own system.

Well this sketch came out like 30 or 40 years ago, but here's my thought on what gives a stomach ache:

"Whether is better the gift or the donor? Come to me," Quoth the pine tree, "I am the giver of honor. My garden is the cloven rock, And my manure the snow, And drifting sand heaps feed my stock, In summer's scorching glow. Ancient or curious, Who knoweth aught of us? Old as Jove, Old as Love, Who of me Tells the pedigree? Only the mountains old, Only the waters cold, Only moon and star My coevals are. Ere the first fowl sung My relenting boughs among, Ere Adam wived, Ere Adam lived, Ere the duck dived, Ere the bees hived, Ere the lion roared, Ere the eagle soared, Light and heat, land and sea Spake unto the oldest tree. Glad in the sweet and secret aid Which matter unto matter paid, The water flowed, the breezes fanned, The tree confined the roving sand, The sunbeam gave me to the sight, The tree adorned the formless light, And once again O'er the grave of men We shall talk to each other again Of the old age behind, Of the time out of mind, Which shall come again."

If I want to answer the dude's question, then yeah it probably should. But do I care about it (and the knowledge it might/would reveal?) Probably not.

I only read the OP here (so did the rest of the thread actually happen? there were at least 5 posts i skipped)... but I have to say: what is truth without WHY? You say here that a tree falls: so what? A slip of money is on the ground: why? I could theorise about HOW it happened, (and that's what I think you WANT people to twist and contort themselves about), but dude, you have no wisdom here. WHY would this matter? EDIT: 9 It is better to leave a vessel unfilled, than to attempt to carry it when it is full. If you keep feeling a point that has been sharpened, the point cannot long preserve its sharpness. When gold and jade fill the hall, their possessor cannot keep them safe. When wealth and honours lead to arrogancy, this brings its evil on itself. When the work is done, and one's name is becoming distinguished, to withdraw into obscurity is the way of Heaven. Second EDIT: And now I will read everyone's replies (and probably NOT comment). Sheesh.

I believe I was '99. (born late december). At least, would have been '99 if I finished highschool at the correct time. Or I could be completely confusing myself. I never remember because I dropped out early and only completed highschool later on at TAFE.

Heh. Well I guess the flat-foreheadedness has to do with my user image (and maybe much else besides that I don't notice). But no, my mention of admiration was not meant to really be admirous of anything external. It goes to my initial response that gratitude is relief. We're relieved that we don't have to contend. We're relieved that in any struggle where we would deem the struggle worthy (where we would actively develop struggle) is where the Tao is laid before us waiting for our realisation. We're relieved by the fact that anything we agree with, Tao has set the terms for (and likewise voided the course of anything different). We're relieved by any struggle where to maintain what is there is neutered by what maintains itself. We're relieved by the fact that knowledge of Tao in itself is to overcome anything not Tao (if anything else anything can actually be known). Removing all opposition to what we are is the same as revealing all that we are. So no, I'm not one for the dual stuff. Tao is in our bones. But admiration? Definately. (Maybe that's off OP... don't remember what it was... it's late and i'm going to bed...)

Yeah, the guy there can seem lofty.

Brilliant. WIth that I almost forget what the Original Post was.

And if you want to talk about chipping away and wearing oneself out (and the 'opponent') it's to talk of this: 67All the world says that, while my Tao is great, it yet appears to be inferior (to other systems of teaching). Now it is just its greatness that makes it seem to be inferior. If it were like any other (system), for long would its smallness have been known! But I have three precious things which I prize and hold fast. The first is gentleness; the second is economy; and the third is shrinking from taking precedence of others. With that gentleness I can be bold; with that economy I can be liberal; shrinking from taking precedence of others, I can become a vessel of the highest honour. Now-a-days they give up gentleness and are all for being bold; economy, and are all for being liberal; the hindmost place, and seek only to be foremost;--(of all which the end is) death. Gentleness is sure to be victorious even in battle, and firmly to maintain its ground. Heaven will save its possessor, by his (very) gentleness protecting him.

Indeed. Best post I've seen in some time.

Uh oh. The dreaded dual... Or is it just me that finds myself banging my head against the wall when I heard that term? Maybe I'd be grateful if I didn't have to think about it.

Admiration then?