nestentrie

I think I have one more verse to offer up for consideration: 79When a reconciliation is effected (between two parties) after a great animosity, there is sure to be a grudge remaining (in the mind of the one who was wrong). And how can this be beneficial (to the other)? Therefore (to guard against this), the sage keeps the left-hand portion of the record of the engagement, and does not insist on the (speedy) fulfilment of it by the other party. (So), he who has the attributes (of the Tao) regards (only) the conditions of the engagement, while he who has not those attributes regards only the conditions favourable to himself. In the Way of Heaven, there is no partiality of love; it is always on the side of the good man. I'm guessing the agreement on how the place is cleaned is on shaky ground. Maybe it's time to formalise the agreement? (Where A states their wishes, but perhaps cedes a little ground?) Resentment isn't fun for anyone.

No colour for me. I guess I will never be an immortal

2All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill of the skilful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the want of skill is. So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to (the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and that being before and behind give the idea of one following another. Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and conveys his instructions without the use of speech. All things spring up, and there is not one which declines to show itself; they grow, and there is no claim made for their ownership; they go through their processes, and there is no expectation (of a reward for the results). The work is accomplished, and there is no resting in it (as an achievement). The work is done, but how no one can see; 'Tis this that makes the power not cease to be. --------- The want of reward is the want to have our skill acknowledged. The recognition of that skill is the heirarchy you wanted to impose. If the sage feels no pull for acknowledgement why should he expect that for the other that pull (and the acknoweldgement) is good? To make no personal claim for the rewards in the game of skill is to place no value on reward for anyone. If I don't rest when I feel I could be rewarded why would I rest when another feels they should be rewarded? Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and conveys his instructions without the use of speech. Like dawei said, the sage treats people like heaven and earth do: like straw dogs. Sincere words are not fine. Fine words are not sincere. One shouldn't really confuse one's own ego with another's.

I"m gonna do a MarbleHead here and say that while I like this *thread (and think it's important), I don't have any inclination to weigh in with opinion about it. Except for one thing: I liked iradie's first post. *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gxp0fTIyDc

WOODNOTES WHEN the pine tosses its cones To the song of its waterfall tones, Who speeds to the woodland walks? To birds and trees who talks? Cæsar of his leafy Rome, There the poet is at home. He goes to the river-side,— Not hook nor line hath he; He stands in the meadows wide,— Nor gun nor scythe to see. Sure some god his eye enchants: What he knows nobody wants. In the wood he travels glad, Without better fortune had, Melancholy without bad. Knowledge this man prizes best Seems fantastic to the rest: Pondering shadows, colors, clouds, Grass-buds and caterpillar-shrouds, Boughs on which the wild bees settle, Tints that spot the violet's petal, Why Nature loves the number five, And why the star-form she repeats: Lover of all things alive, Wonderer at all he meets, Wonderer chiefly at himself, Who can tell him what he is? Or how meet in human elf Coming and past eternities? Ralph Waldo Emerson

With delusionals, be ever ready to listen. Be first to listen. However when giving advice, gaurd yourself and be the last to offer advice. EDIT: Not to sound preachy but this verse goes two ways... 7Heaven is long-enduring and earth continues long. The reason why heaven and earth are able to endure and continue thus long is because they do not live of, or for, themselves. This is how they are able to continue and endure. Therefore the sage puts his own person last, and yet it is found in the foremost place; he treats his person as if it were foreign to him, and yet that person is preserved. Is it not because he has no personal and private ends, that therefore such ends are realised?

67 All the world says that, while my Tao is great, it yet appears to be inferior (to other systems of teaching). Now it is just its greatness that makes it seem to be inferior. If it were like any other (system), for long would its smallness have been known! But I have three precious things which I prize and hold fast. The first is gentleness; the second is economy; and the third is shrinking from taking precedence of others. With that gentleness I can be bold; with that economy I can be liberal; shrinking from taking precedence of others, I can become a vessel of the highest honour. Now-a-days they give up gentleness and are all for being bold; economy, and are all for being liberal; the hindmost place, and seek only to be foremost;--(of all which the end is) death. Gentleness is sure to be victorious even in battle, and firmly to maintain its ground. Heaven will save its possessor, by his (very) gentleness protecting him.

A 'full moon at noon' is not a full moon. What you're probably confusing it with is the New Moon. New Moons rise at the same time as the Sun and set at the same time as the Sun. The moon at this point is directly between the Earth and the Sun. It's illumed at this time not by direct sunlight but reflected rays from our Earth's atmosphere. Each day beyond the 'New Moon' the moon rises later and later than the Sun and thus appears further away to the east of the sun. As this happens the moon starts to receive direct sunlight from the Sun. This is noticed by increasingly thicker and thicker bands of white on one side of the moon. When the moon is full the light it's receiving from the sun covers the entire disc of the moon. This happens when the Sun, Earth and Moon make a straight line. Or another way of putting it, the Earth is now between the Sun and the Moon. If the Sun is illuminating the earth (that makes it daytime) on one side then the other side is in dark. Full Moons thus occur in night. (The Sun's rays are bending around the earth to illuminate the Moon). Another thing... Full Moons are not region specific. If one night it is Full Moon in the UK, then as soon as enough time has passed for it to be night time in the US it is also a Full Moon for the US. You're only talking degrees of difference. This of course happens in cycle. As the Moon approaches New Moon it is still rising further and further east of its location the previous Earth spin. So far east that when it rises (and the sun behind it in the east) it appears to be west of the Sun. Eventually, cue another New Moon.

And some further thought:

Well, I've been thinking more on it and here's what i've prepared. I've taken the processive agents (or virtues) and affixed the qualities of touch and proprioception to them as well as applied some scientific notions. Don't assume i've whipped this up in a few days of course (i've been thinking on the qualties for some time). It was just this thread that reminded me of the proceses. In aid of deciphering it: Hard, Soft Tight, Loose Blunt, Sharp Deep, Shallow Coarse, Fine (or smooth) Heavy, Light

I suppose I could look it up, but your adlib descriptions are more interesting than reading a dry webpage and what's the point of a forum if not to discuss things? Is it possible that the energies can 'flow' backwards through the cycle? I understand that the correct fucntion and flow of them is set out, but what for instance happens if fire is tending back to mingle with wood? Or would you just say that the process of wood transitioning to fire is simply interuppted/hindered and that wood still comes first? I suppose an indirect question, it's just that I had a strange sleep. Somewhat restful but upon waking i'm extremely bleary and feel somewhat that my head is burning (especially just behind my eyes). I'm also dehydrated (yesterday I had a kind paradoxical attitude to water; felt a lot of fluid buildup around my chest and was not at all thirsty for the whole day as a result). How would you plan for this?

Yes that's a better word. Cheers.

Hmm. Well Emerson did get caught up in emphatic language but good judgement still has a place.

To believe your own thought, to believe that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men, — that is genius. Speak your latent conviction, and it shall be the universal sense; for the inmost in due time becomes the outmost,—— and our first thought is rendered back to us by the trumpets of the Last Judgment. Ralph Waldo Emerson.

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I think between thelerner and Yascra most of the bases that would cover the answer have been provided. It's a question of conscience, i think. I think some further breakdown of what you consider 'misfortune' would lead to some further discussion though. To separate out what is brought on by one's own actions, and all that is inevitable coming from outside the person. What should and shouldn't be that can be either agreed with or not, as opposed to all that is done or not done that is either knonwn or not known.

I would have something to say to that, but then that'd mean commenting on the thread it came from and I don't really feel like being a part of that (nor putting my thoughts about it here). So what does leave me to say? Point taken, I guess.

43 The softest thing in the world dashes against and overcomes the hardest; that which has no (substantial) existence enters where there is no crevice. I know hereby what advantage belongs to doing nothing (with a purpose). There are few in the world who attain to the teaching without words, and the advantage arising from non-action.

Enjoy I did. Thanks for sharing. Will you be notifying us when you have more chapters up? I'll be watching this thread to see when you have more.

For what can be the way has been already found; The moss always finds the dampness of the rocks. Let us believe that it is so and in the surety of this facility. For what will be there is yielding dirt that forms mound; The earth always finds both a low and high spot. Let us accept that the earth is not always serendipity. For what should be there is already waiting ground; The springs always tend river water for the flocks. Let us agree that this is just and subsist in humility. In what the earth does there is surety and order. If only man knew, that to an insect he is smaller.

Is feeling the sting of the thorn but the mistake of feeling for the flower and being surprised?

Thanks, Rara. EDIT: And I agree that it's just par for the course (common sense) in the TTC.

Well i'm not an expert but I do think it's stretching it, yes. There are certainly some cross pollinating themes that go throughout the entire Tao Te Ching. Notions that that evoke the same thing, and other ideas/areas where mindfulness could be useful. Like (to start somewhere around the beginning) not prizing the skills of outstanding men. Knowing that competition builds tension and stress calls for mindfulness, for the memory of that 'fact' to come to the fore and influence your decisions regarding the employment of skillful men. Or other things like the abstinence of speech, where, like the weather sudden outbursts have their terminal value and stop after a time, and to push beyond that would be wasteful and stress inducing. But these are more indicative of a theoretical framework, a philosophical underpinning. Calls for the proper application of general knowledge. It's not nearly half as specific as using mindfulness for the express purpose of meditation. To be mindful of breath, for instance. There is a verse in the Tao Te Ching that talks about breath, but it's far more descriptive than prescriptive. Mindfulness here is not called out and advocated. I'd have to say it's pretty inconclusive really. For me, I would be as careful as you are being and not foist on the Tao Te Ching this other definition. I would call mindfulness in the Tao Te Ching textural, and not particle. For me to accept that definition for the Tao Te Ching mindfulness would have to take stage in the same way the Three Treasures do. Specific, prescriptive. But there is still the theme that is important. So I dunno, maybe i'm just being abritrary.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html